Panasonic S5 User Experience

[herein2020]

On 2/1/2022 at 1:31 AM, MrSMW said:

I think if you are a dedicated videographer, it shouldn't be a problem...

I shoot hybrid so I am not a dedicated videographer.

All day long I am flicking between shooting stills, lowering that camera and popping up the second one to capture the same scene with video handheld.

Sometimes, I need to do both at the same time such as: entrances, exits, confetti, vows/ring exchange/first kiss and in that case, the freestanding monopod directly in front of me comes into play so I can shoot stills while the video is doing it's own thing. Except vows/rings where I can lock focus.

It's then that reliable AF is required and with the system, it mostly is OK providing the subjects are not moving too fast.

 

I am not a dedicated videographer either for most events, but I still think even as a dedicated videographer with the S5 it is impossible especially on a gimbal. I say that because the focus peaking is so hard to see on the screen of my S5 even indoors that I would have a very hard time manually focusing on a moving object. The little dots show up so rarely and they are so hard to see that I just use one-shot AF then just try to keep the same camera to subject distance.

Maybe with an external screen that does its own focus peaking and a lens with a good focus throw it could work with MF.

[Michael S]

7 hours ago, herein2020 said:

The little dots show up so rarely and they are so hard to see

Have you tried setting the sensitivity of focus peaking to +2 and turned on "black and white preview" where the EVF/LCD image is rendered in black and white and the peaking dots are shown in e.g. red? It may still not be enough, but that's about as good as it is going to get on the S5.

[projectwoofer]

I don’t know…I only shoot manual but never had problems with the focus peaking on my S5. 🤔

[herein2020]

12 hours ago, Michael S said:

Have you tried setting the sensitivity of focus peaking to +2 and turned on "black and white preview" where the EVF/LCD image is rendered in black and white and the peaking dots are shown in e.g. red? It may still not be enough, but that's about as good as it is going to get on the S5.

Yes, I turned it up all the way, they rarely show up.

 

12 hours ago, projectwoofer said:

I don’t know…I only shoot manual but never had problems with the focus peaking on my S5. 🤔

 Are you using the EF adapter and EF lenses? It probably works better with native L mount lenses. I didn't have this problem with the GH5 and native MFT lenses.

[projectwoofer]

11 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

Yes, I turned it up all the way, they rarely show up.

 

 Are you using the EF adapter and EF lenses? It probably works better with native L mount lenses. I didn't have this problem with the GH5 and native MFT lenses.

I’m using native L mount and vintage lenses. Mostly Canon FD glass.

[FS670ES]

On 2/16/2022 at 5:17 PM, MrSMW said:

Coming from Fuji myself (XT3), not as good.

For stills, no problemo…in fact there are several bonuses with stills for a camera having contrast detect.

But for video, with static subjects or side to side movement, pretty OK and yes, native Panny lenses have an edge over Sigma.

Reliable tracking forward or away from you. Forget it. Pretty crap.

It CAN do it, but you don’t get to decide when those times are.

Toss a coin up in the air and the probability of heads or tails is 50:50.

That’s S5/S1 tracking as things stand for you.

 

Thank you very much. I really hoped it would be better now. I looked at the video below and though that it's quite ok but video only shows couple of scenarios. 

[Mark Romero 2]

4 hours ago, FS670ES said:

Thank you very much. I really hoped it would be better now. I looked at the video below and though that it's quite ok but video only shows couple of scenarios. 

I re-watched that video.

True, Shane was able to keep the autofocus mostly in focus. If I were able to get as good continuous autofocus as he does, I probably would buy the 24mm (or the 20-60 zoom) and stop entertaining any thoughts of getting an a7 IV.

I have unfortunately been unable myself to get anything close to that level of AF performance with either my S5 or my S1.

On the other hand, I only have the Panasonic 24-105 f/4 lens. It was one of the first lenses that Panasonic released for the S-Series of cameras, so maybe the more recent prime lenses just focus better??? (I have updated the firmware on my bodies and my lens to the latest firmware release).

I think in bright scenes with a lot of contrast, shooting in the standard profile, you might get useable autofocus. 

On the other hand, I have shot scenes in V-LOG when it was still rather bright but less contrast (overcast skies, or in open shade), and the autofocus was just completely unusable.

Most of the times that I have tried using autofocus, it works around 75% of the time, but then I end up having to re-do shots to get it right. This would be a scenario where I am doing something similar to a focus pull on a slider shot, where I am focusing on a foreground object and when I slide past the object and I want it to focus on a background object.

Or if I am panning (or tilting) from a foreground object to the talent's face. About 75% of the time it will transition ok, otherwise not.

The tough thing for me is that if I then quickly switch it in to AF-S (which is usually more dependable), it STILL might not focus on the talent. 

Anyway, it is frustrating.

[Beritar]

2 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I re-watched that video.

True, Shane was able to keep the autofocus mostly in focus. If I were able to get as good continuous autofocus as he does, I probably would buy the 24mm (or the 20-60 zoom) and stop entertaining any thoughts of getting an a7 IV.

I have unfortunately been unable myself to get anything close to that level of AF performance with either my S5 or my S1.

On the other hand, I only have the Panasonic 24-105 f/4 lens. It was one of the first lenses that Panasonic released for the S-Series of cameras, so maybe the more recent prime lenses just focus better??? (I have updated the firmware on my bodies and my lens to the latest firmware release).

I think in bright scenes with a lot of contrast, shooting in the standard profile, you might get useable autofocus. 

On the other hand, I have shot scenes in V-LOG when it was still rather bright but less contrast (overcast skies, or in open shade), and the autofocus was just completely unusable.

Most of the times that I have tried using autofocus, it works around 75% of the time, but then I end up having to re-do shots to get it right. This would be a scenario where I am doing something similar to a focus pull on a slider shot, where I am focusing on a foreground object and when I slide past the object and I want it to focus on a background object.

Or if I am panning (or tilting) from a foreground object to the talent's face. About 75% of the time it will transition ok, otherwise not.

The tough thing for me is that if I then quickly switch it in to AF-S (which is usually more dependable), it STILL might not focus on the talent. 

Anyway, it is frustrating.

V-LOG is very bad for Autofocus. You should try HLG (almost the same DR) or even CINE-V, the AF is better than with V-LOG.
Also, the more DOF you get the better is the AF so it is not very surprising than lenses like the 24mm or the 20-60mm (on the wide angle) perform better than lenses longer than 30mm.

[herein2020]

8 hours ago, FS670ES said:

Thank you very much. I really hoped it would be better now. I looked at the video below and though that it's quite ok but video only shows couple of scenarios. 

Videos like those are just too controlled to see the real world performance. As @Mark Romero 2 mentioned, in great lighting with lots of contrast it seems like it will be ok, but in the real world it is pretty terrible.  I tried CAF with the kit lens  (20-60 L Mount) and the Sigma 45mm that I got for free, and it was completely unusable for me.  The pulsing, the complete loss of focus then the endless hunting was just not workable for me.  The worst would be trying to rely on it for a talking head or interview scenario since the talent would need to start all over if it lost focus. I always use MF for those scenarios.

I also only shoot in VLOG which makes it worse; I know there's other color profiles but I should have to pick a different profile just because of AF.  

With my EF adapter and Canon lenses, I even had problems with one shot AF. It simply would not focus at all at times especially with the Sigma 50mm F1.4 so I had to manually focus or change the focus point. Forget focusing on the eye, I had to pick hair, edge of shirt, etc just as a starting point. 

On a tripod or nice and stationary with plenty of light it might be useable, but in fast or even moderate scenarios like events or something as simple as people walking indoors in a mixed lighting environment it fell apart every time for me.

[MrSMW]

Well I’m probably going back to the Natural profile this year, mainly for the AF, but also because it’s a really nice SOOC image that requires very little work.

I have a really nice LUT I have made for myself from using Nitrate, but I’ll have to do another one for the Natural profile now as it’s completely different to log.

4k 50/60 helps with AF because of the crop.

Wider rather than longer lenses help.

Native Panny over say Sigma work better.

One area + face detection is the best AF setting for tracking people.

I use speed -1 and sensitivity -2 for the AF settings.

Another top tip is keeping the camera as still as possible as it’s one less thing for it to fight with. At least that makes sense to me, but no one ever seems to mention that, ie, monopod or tripod or at least IBIS…

The rest is down to lighting, background and that thing called luck. It MOSTLY works…

[herein2020]

On 2/24/2022 at 3:56 PM, MrSMW said:

Another top tip is keeping the camera as still as possible as it’s one less thing for it to fight with. At least that makes sense to me, but no one ever seems to mention that, ie, monopod or tripod or at least IBIS…

The rest is down to lighting, background and that thing called luck. It MOSTLY works…

None of us mention that because none of us have that luxury 😀. The main benefit for these small cameras is handheld work and gimbals, so plenty of movement going on.
 

Wide angle lenses definitely help, my gimbal lens is a 24mm and with enough light at F7.1 you are practically at infinity focus.

[webrunner5]

Interesting comparison. I like the Blackmagic overall, no surprise.

 

 

[Geoffrey]

On 2/16/2022 at 12:14 PM, FS670ES said:

Hi

I would like to ask how is the S5 autofocus nowadays in AF-C face/eye/subject tracking ? I am looking to jump ship from Fuji X-T4 and wondering if I will loose much in that department. Also wondering how much better the AF is with native lets say Panasonic 50 f1.8 compared to something like Sigma 65 f2 ?

I will not be using camera professionally, only hobby travel / family / kids stuff. Fuji is not ideal and I can see some pulsing especially when using eye / face tracking. 

 

I have been using the S5 human detect continuous AF quite a lot recently. I shoot using the CineD2 profile (standard kit lens) and mainly outdoors, hand held. It works pretty well and am a bit baffled by the criticism it gets here. Maybe that is because people expect 99% success with it when in reality it is more like, I dunno 85%? I suppose with crucial commercial shoots this becomes an issue. But, with practice you get to know when it falls over - mainly too dark or too bright and movement is too rapid (so practice with it really does help like most things). Avoid that and it works the vast majority of the time very well and I love the look it gives. In fact as I have got experience with the S5 generally, I have grown to love it more and more, faults and all.

[Geoffrey]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:17 PM, MrSMW said:

Coming from Fuji myself (XT3), not as good.

For stills, no problemo…in fact there are several bonuses with stills for a camera having contrast detect.

But for video, with static subjects or side to side movement, pretty OK and yes, native Panny lenses have an edge over Sigma.

Reliable tracking forward or away from you. Forget it. Pretty crap.

It CAN do it, but you don’t get to decide when those times are.

Toss a coin up in the air and the probability of heads or tails is 50:50.

That’s S5/S1 tracking as things stand for you.

 

I really do not agree with this. You just have to practice with it. i have used human detect CAF loads and with a considerable success rate. It isn't a 'coin toss', it is user experience and practice that gets it to work best. I get it that some cannot be bothered with this and just 'want it to work' but the S5 is all I have so I persevered. And it does work. That is how it stands.

[Mark Romero 2]

7 minutes ago, Geoffrey said:

I have been using the S5 human detect continuous AF quite a lot recently. I shoot using the CineD2 profile (standard kit lens) and mainly outdoors, hand held. It works pretty well and am a bit baffled by the criticism it gets here. Maybe that is because people expect 99% success with it when in reality it is more like, I dunno 85%?

OK, but in some situations, 85% success = 0% usability. It means having to re-shoot something (often more than once).

Shooting V-LOG at 30fps in overcast / open shade conditions I would say that it was about 50% accurate, and sometimes it would lock focus on someone and then just decide to go off and focus in the background for no reason. This was using face detect and then switching to one area with face detect. The AF would just wander off 😞

Using the Panasonic 24-105 f/4

[Geoffrey]

6 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

OK, but in some situations, 85% success = 0% usability. It means having to re-shoot something (often more than once).

Shooting V-LOG at 30fps in overcast / open shade conditions I would say that it was about 50% accurate, and sometimes it would lock focus on someone and then just decide to go off and focus in the background for no reason. This was using face detect and then switching to one area with face detect. The AF would just wander off 😞

Using the Panasonic 24-105 f/4

Yeah, understood. I admit to having little experience on other cameras with CAF (or V-Log) but have read the Sonys are 'better' but I do wonder how much better in the conditions you describe (V-Log etc)? If 85% = 0%, in effect for certain situations, what percentage success is OK, as none of them work 100%? We do ask quite a lot of these machines!

My impression from the OP was they wanted a cam for holidays and stuff and I would say the S5 CAF is totally fine for that (yeah you get a bit of pulsing too but not much and only really notice it if you look for it which most people wont). Maybe this is the difference - total professional reliability versus more general use, use where some technical failures don't matter. The question I would have there, is the S5 a fully 'professional' camera to be totally relied on? Given the price, I would say it is definitely not and so should be judged accordingly

[MrSMW]

22 minutes ago, Geoffrey said:

I really do not agree with this

Hey, no problem Geoffrey, - it's OK to have a different opinion and express it.

I've explored every single setting and then some and in my experience, in regard to tracking people walking towards you at anything above even a moderate pace, it's not reliable.

Arguably, no camera is 100% reliable, but in my experience, the XT3 was better than the S5 is and neither are as good as the Nikon Z6 I tried and that isn't as good as anything Sony or Canon.

But the S5 still remains my main video tool for professional work.

[Mark Romero 2]

57 minutes ago, Geoffrey said:

My impression from the OP was they wanted a cam for holidays and stuff and I would say the S5 CAF is totally fine for that (yeah you get a bit of pulsing too but not much and only really notice it if you look for it which most people wont). Maybe this is the difference - total professional reliability versus more general use, use where some technical failures don't matter. The question I would have there, is the S5 a fully 'professional' camera to be totally relied on? Given the price, I would say it is definitely not and so should be judged accordingly

It's probably fine for holidays. Although If I had young children around three or four, I don't know how good the AF would be at following them around. I am sure that my significantly older Sony a6500 or Olympus E-M1 MK II (with firmware 3.0 or later) would track them FAR better. 

Is the S5 a professional camera? Well, I would say there a significant amount of professionals using it to make money (including yours truly), if not as an A cam, at least as a B or C cam. It is a good jack-of-all-trades camera, IMHO. If the continuous autofocus was brought up to the level of Sony or Canon, or the new OM-1, it would be an absolutely great camera.

Paul Byun has made a couple of good videos about his experience as a commercial videographer using the Continuous AF and he has found it useable, but he has made some compromises that, to be honest, kind of offset many of the great benefits of shooting on the S5 or S1 cameras (e.g., shooting at 60fps, shooting in aps-c crop mode, shooting in a profile with higher contrast, shooting on primes at f/2.8 instead of f/1.8, etc.,).

So they aren't terrible cameras, and as you said, work great for non-critical work. But they really are just a reliable continuous autofocus system away from being the perfect camera (at least in my experience).

[Geoffrey]

13 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

It's probably fine for holidays. Although If I had young children around three or four, I don't know how good the AF would be at following them around. I am sure that my significantly older Sony a6500 or Olympus E-M1 MK II (with firmware 3.0 or later) would track them FAR better. 

Is the S5 a professional camera? Well, I would say there a significant amount of professionals using it to make money (including yours truly), if not as an A cam, at least as a B or C cam. It is a good jack-of-all-trades camera, IMHO. If the continuous autofocus was brought up to the level of Sony or Canon, or the new OM-1, it would be an absolutely great camera.

Paul Byun has made a couple of good videos about his experience as a commercial videographer using the Continuous AF and he has found it useable, but he has made some compromises that, to be honest, kind of offset many of the great benefits of shooting on the S5 or S1 cameras (e.g., shooting at 60fps, shooting in aps-c crop mode, shooting in a profile with higher contrast, shooting on primes at f/2.8 instead of f/1.8, etc.,).

So they aren't terrible cameras, and as you said, work great for non-critical work. But they really are just a reliable continuous autofocus system away from being the perfect camera (at least in my experience).

Sound points. I am wondering about price differences here too. I bought the S5 because it was noticeably cheaper than Canon and Sony brands of seemingly similar ilk. I had always been a Canon man till the S5 but the cost, including a lens, and features (compared say to the Sony A7 and C300 - a have used a C100 extensively which has no human detect CAF) made the S5 the one. I had read about the CAF and its issues but wasn't bothered as till that point, I almost never used CAF being a tripod only / old-school observational doc film sort. But funnily enough all the talk about CAF on here made me curious and I began to explore it and it has been a revelation and got me into a different kind of more spontaneous filmmaking which I like but still feel quite a novice at. So I feel a sort of debt to the Panny CAF! No doubt in time I will want something better and it would be good to experience a more reliable system to compare sometime.

[Geoffrey]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

Hey, no problem Geoffrey, - it's OK to have a different opinion and express it.

I've explored every single setting and then some and in my experience, in regard to tracking people walking towards you at anything above even a moderate pace, it's not reliable.

Arguably, no camera is 100% reliable, but in my experience, the XT3 was better than the S5 is and neither are as good as the Nikon Z6 I tried and that isn't as good as anything Sony or Canon.

But the S5 still remains my main video tool for professional work.

Do you think it worse with tracking people coming towards the camera than going away from it? With people coming towards you, one thing I have found is if you walk slowly towards them at the same time it works much better.