Nikon Z6ii and Z7ii are to shoot 4k blackmagic Raw 60 fps

[Danyyyel]

I was stunned to see this from this article that the two Zii models are to shoot 4k BMRaw at 60 fps with a future firmware upgrade in February for the z6ii and perhaps at launch for the z7ii in december. One thing to remember is that the z6ii shoots with a 1.5 crop (DX) but the Z7 shoots with only 1.1x crop.

https://*banned URL*/nikon-z7-ii-and-z6-ii-raw-support

[zerocool22]

Oh over hdmi, internal is the way to go though.

[Anaconda_]

You have to send the camera to Nikon to get the upgrade. It's a $200 hardware upgrade. I think they should just fit that hardware as standard and charge an extra $50 on every unit. They'd make more money, it's less hassle for the end user and isn't much more on the price, even for those who have no interest in raw.

Interestingly:

Quote

Those who have purchased the ProRes RAW update on the original Z7 or Z6 will benefit the same way. Blackmagic RAW will be a software update, and you won't need to send your camera to a Nikon service facility. 

 

[MrSMW]

Nikon have lost the plot.

Raw options appeal to about 7 people on planet Earth whereas internal 10 bit options to around 7 billion.

Great that they wish to offer these things but they need to be competitive in the wider market to survive.

[SteveV4D]

Its great that another camera manufacturer have embraced BRAW; such a shame its Nikon, who have ham-fisted it with a paid upgrade and limited their internal recordings.  Why not simply include this upgrade with the new release?  I'm sure they delay these things a few months to justify charging extra for it.  The S1 did much the same, though I suspect a  last minute change of heart led Panasonic to instead offer it for free for a limited period.  Maybe Nikon will do the same, but I won't hold my breath.  

I have a wish that Panasonic would allow a possible S1H successor to output BRAW.  It would be a great addition and make it worth buying for me, even if the AF is a bit crap.  😄

[zerocool22]

44 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Its great that another camera manufacturer have embraced BRAW; such a shame its Nikon, who have ham-fisted it with a paid upgrade and limited their internal recordings.  Why not simply include this upgrade with the new release?  I'm sure they delay these things a few months to justify charging extra for it.  The S1 did much the same, though I suspect a  last minute change of heart led Panasonic to instead offer it for free for a limited period.  Maybe Nikon will do the same, but I won't hold my breath.  

I have a wish that Panasonic would allow a possible S1H successor to output BRAW.  It would be a great addition and make it worth buying for me, even if the AF is a bit crap.  😄

I wish they would work togheter so we could get internal BRAW on other camera's. 

[Anaconda_]

Rightly or wrongly, having Braw as external only means Blackmagic still get a cut of the sales because you need the Video Assist. If it was internal, they wouldn't get as much. The 3rd party would probably pay for the rights to the codec, but I'd imagine there's a bigger margin with the VA hardware sales.

It also means people are less likely to go that route. If you don't want the put a monitor on your camera, or want Braw internal, you need to buy a BMD camera, so either way they're getting extra sales.

[zerocool22]

1 minute ago, Anaconda_ said:

Rightly or wrongly, having Braw as external only means Blackmagic still get a cut of the sales because you need the Video Assist. If it was internal, they wouldn't get as much. The 3rd party would probably pay for the rights to the codec, but I'd imagine there's a bigger margin with the VA hardware sales.

It also means people are less likely to go that route. If you don't want the put a monitor on your camera, or want Braw internal, you need to buy a BMD camera, so either way they're getting extra sales.

Yes that is a good strategy. Too bad for us. Or would be great if bm would release a hybrid as well, with hotflash shoe for flash photography, IBIS, fast AF, compact and great battery life. 

[Danyyyel]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Nikon have lost the plot.

Raw options appeal to about 7 people on planet Earth whereas internal 10 bit options to around 7 billion.

Great that they wish to offer these things but they need to be competitive in the wider market to survive.

I understand your point fully, but I think this a bit less true since BMRAW. When you look at the bitrate of Braw and from feedback of some friends who work with it and Davinci Resolve, it works very very well. At 12.1 which I saw some test footage is just slightly less sharp than other less compressed version, we are clearly less heavy than normal PRORES. We are closer to H264 compression rate!!!

[Danyyyel]

3 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Its great that another camera manufacturer have embraced BRAW; such a shame its Nikon, who have ham-fisted it with a paid upgrade and limited their internal recordings.  Why not simply include this upgrade with the new release?  I'm sure they delay these things a few months to justify charging extra for it.  The S1 did much the same, though I suspect a  last minute change of heart led Panasonic to instead offer it for free for a limited period.  Maybe Nikon will do the same, but I won't hold my breath.  

I have a wish that Panasonic would allow a possible S1H successor to output BRAW.  It would be a great addition and make it worth buying for me, even if the AF is a bit crap.  😄

Sincerely, how can people complain that much I don't understand. I am hyper critical of not putting 10bit but for RAW update how can people complain. The original z6 came out 2 years ago for 2300 USD, the z7 for 3300. Now the new one is 2000 and the z7 2700 usd. It means that for example the z6ii is cheaper, while having 60p 4k and better AF, dual card slot etc than the original one including the firmware update. You are comparing it to the Panasonic S1H  which is 4000 usd. That is twice the price and I don't even know if it has 60 fps RAW.

[Danyyyel]

3 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Rightly or wrongly, having Braw as external only means Blackmagic still get a cut of the sales because you need the Video Assist. If it was internal, they wouldn't get as much. The 3rd party would probably pay for the rights to the codec, but I'd imagine there's a bigger margin with the VA hardware sales.

It also means people are less likely to go that route. If you don't want the put a monitor on your camera, or want Braw internal, you need to buy a BMD camera, so either way they're getting extra sales.

Exactly, sometimes people don't understand those simple logic. Companies have to do some profits. I am very critical Nikon did not put 10 bit internal in these cameras, I guess they thought as they give you the choice external, and that the 8bit internal is extremely good, people would not bother. But now I see people complaining why it is not internal or $ 200 dollar upgrade. I mean in two years we went from 8bit to 12 bit raw in 2000 usd FF hybrid camera. Largely because of Nikon. It's been like 5 years people have been complaining that we were stuck with 8bit (which is right) and only now that you got the likes of Sony and Canon giving 10 bit etc. and people are still complaining.

 

 

[SteveV4D]

7 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Sincerely, how can people complain that much I don't understand. I am hyper critical of not putting 10bit but for RAW update how can people complain. The original z6 came out 2 years ago for 2300 USD, the z7 for 3300. Now the new one is 2000 and the z7 2700 usd. It means that for example the z6ii is cheaper, while having 60p 4k and better AF, dual card slot etc than the original one including the firmware update. You are comparing it to the Panasonic S1H  which is 4000 usd. That is twice the price and I don't even know if it has 60 fps RAW.

I am not comparing it to the S1H.  My point about the S1H was separate to my thoughts on the Nikon.  

As for the Nikon updates.  The whole thing was handled badly by Nikon.  Promises then delays.  Just to confirm as I may have my wires crossed by how complicated this has become....   if I were to buy the new Mark II version of either the z6 or z7, would I have to send it back to get the RAW upgrade.  Its not simply a software download... If so, that's pretty silly.  

I don't object to the extra cost, more the way it is rolled out.  I'd prefer manufacturers release video focused models with the extra features included rather than pick and mix extra features as paid updates. 

[SteveV4D]

4 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

 But now I see people complaining why it is not internal or $ 200 dollar upgrade. I mean in two years we went from 8bit to 12 bit raw in 2000 usd FF hybrid camera. Largely because of Nikon. It's been like 5 years people have been complaining that we were stuck with 8bit (which is right) and only now that you got the likes of Sony and Canon giving 10 bit etc. and people are still complaining.

 

 

I would pay more and actually buy the camera if internal BRAW was available.  I don't expect it tbh.  I know how the World works.  But it would be nice.  Its less a complaint and more a wish.  Dont be so touchy and jump down on wishful thinking comments 

[Phil A]

1 hour ago, Danyyyel said:

I understand your point fully, but I think this a bit less true since BMRAW. When you look at the bitrate of Braw and from feedback of some friends who work with it and Davinci Resolve, it works very very well. At 12.1 which I saw some test footage is just slightly less sharp than other less compressed version, we are clearly less heavy than normal PRORES. We are closer to H264 compression rate!!!

But not everyone wants to massively increase the footprint and weight of his camera by adding an external recorder. For many people, the whole point of shooting with a hybrid camera is the size. I couldn't care less what's available via HDMI out, it needs to be in-camera or I'm not going to use it. I'm clearly not in the minority with that opinion. For 90%+ of users, the new Nikons will be 8bit cameras.

[MrSMW]

21 minutes ago, Phil A said:

But not everyone wants to massively increase the footprint and weight of his camera by adding an external recorder. For many people, the whole point of shooting with a hybrid camera is the size.

Indeed. This is me, the hybrid shooter. I don’t want cables and monitors and additional batteries and cages and rails and gimbals and... just a camera and a lens.

At the same time, I am realistic and don’t expect to get ‘everything’ and there has to be some form of compromise somewhere, but once again, another manufacturer fell short in one key area.

If I hadn’t settled on the S5 (only criticism, the AF) then I think the XT4 is next best for my needs when I had hoped it was going to be Z6ii.

Great that they are offering raw externally in principal, but I just think there is more important stuff that should have been a priority. But then I don’t know if there are technical limitations.

Ultimately, they give us what they give us and not a great deal we can do about it.

[Geoff CB]

15 minutes ago, Phil A said:

But not everyone wants to massively increase the footprint and weight of his camera by adding an external recorder. For many people, the whole point of shooting with a hybrid camera is the size. I couldn't care less what's available via HDMI out, it needs to be in-camera or I'm not going to use it. I'm clearly not in the minority with that opinion. For 90%+ of users, the new Nikons will be 8bit cameras.

Completely agree. One of the big advantages of hybrid mirrorless camera's is the light weight and flexibility to strip down the rigging.  It means this camera cannot be used for vlogging or on a gimbal without rigging it up. 

The Z6 and Z7 were not even usable while using an external recorder, as they both have terrible output delay, and the image was line skipped in RAW, creating issues with moire compared to the internal recording.

The lack of internal 10-bit AND lack of internal LOG drove me to completely abandon the system. 

 

[MrSMW]

Something else I noticed was that when the; R5, R6, S5, A7Siii etc embargos were lifted, every man, dog and MeTuber had a review.

Nikon announce the new Zzzzzz’s and I think some bloke in Australia mentioned it. Briefly.

OK, slight exaggeration, but seemed to be a LOT less reviews and general buzz about it. That suggests to me Nikon’s marketing department are idiots.

[Danyyyel]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

I would pay more and actually buy the camera if internal BRAW was available.  I don't expect it tbh.  I know how the World works.  But it would be nice.  Its less a complaint and more a wish.  Dont be so touchy and jump down on wishful thinking comments 

But 90% of the people that buy this camera would complain because the Sony or Panasonic is 500 usd cheaper. From what I saw with the double expeed processor the autofocus is even better for video from a German reviewer. They have also added eye AF for video and 60 fps RAW. I mean I could not have dream of FF raw under 2.4 to 2.7 K 2 years ago. People also have to a bit realistic, when we are talking about external recording. These Z cameras are already much smaller than normal dslr and an atomos V is about same size as a flash. So nowadays we have raw video it about same size as a Nikon d5500 camera and a flash. I work on film set with Alexa's here in my country as set photographer. People should come and see the size of those cameras to have an understanding of how small those mirrorless are compared to normal video cameras.

 

[Danyyyel]

1 hour ago, Phil A said:

But not everyone wants to massively increase the footprint and weight of his camera by adding an external recorder. For many people, the whole point of shooting with a hybrid camera is the size. I couldn't care less what's available via HDMI out, it needs to be in-camera or I'm not going to use it. I'm clearly not in the minority with that opinion. For 90%+ of users, the new Nikons will be 8bit cameras.

(0% of usser including me are expecting and complaining about 10 bit h264 internal not RAW. I don't understand that obsession about size unless you want to do spy shots. I mean I can shoot RAW video with cameras that is smaller than my last dslr Nikon D750 and a flash on it. In fact I prefer and camera with an external recorder than one with all internal WOW spec that will overhead. In a any narrative, high end commercial and documentary filming where I think RAW can be warranted, those size a ridiculously small. I mean the z6 + ninja V might be barely bigger than a Canon 5d mark ii.  So what has happened those last decade, everyone has become so much older that they can't hold less than a kilogram. 

[SteveV4D]

16 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

People also have to a bit realistic, when we are talking about external recording. These Z cameras are already much smaller than normal dslr and an atomos V is about same size as a flash. So nowadays we have raw video it about same size as a Nikon d5500 camera and a flash. I work on film set with Alexa's here in my country as set photographer. People should come and see the size of those cameras to have an understanding of how small those mirrorless are compared to normal video cameras.

 

I don't always limit my wishes to what is realistic to expect.  This a casual discussion not a debate.  Even so, what is realistic for features depends as much on manufacturers choices than what is possible with technology.  BRAW internal may seem a foolish wish for any other camera than BM; until another manufacturer comes along and offers it.  The P4K took a lot by surprise offering 4K RAW so cheaply.  It would have seem unrealistic a request before then.

Its not as if the technology isn't there to deliver on such expectations.   Nikon will gives us BRAW external, whilst Canon provides Raw internal.  If the R5 had a fan and been made by Panasonic that cripples its cameras less, doubtless its RAW video recording would be less impeded.   Who knows what Panasonic will offer next, maybe with a GH6.

The frustrating thing I find about Nikon, Canon and Panasonic is that they are all on the cusp of delivery something I would really value as a filming tool, but each lacks something that truly sets it apart from the competition.