Nikon Z6ii and Z7ii are to shoot 4k blackmagic Raw 60 fps

[herein2020]

1 hour ago, Danyyyel said:

(0% of usser including me are expecting and complaining about 10 bit h264 internal not RAW. I don't understand that obsession about size unless you want to do spy shots. I mean I can shoot RAW video with cameras that is smaller than my last dslr Nikon D750 and a flash on it. In fact I prefer and camera with an external recorder than one with all internal WOW spec that will overhead. In a any narrative, high end commercial and documentary filming where I think RAW can be warranted, those size a ridiculously small. I mean the z6 + ninja V might be barely bigger than a Canon 5d mark ii.  So what has happened those last decade, everyone has become so much older that they can't hold less than a kilogram. 

I for one prefer a larger camera because the weight makes hand holding steadier but you want to know what I don't believe in? External recorders. For me it has nothing to do with weight or size, it has to do with one more thing that can go wrong, more wires to carry, more batteries to charge, and external recorders are a single point of failure if their hard drive gets corrupt. I agree with @MrSMW and @Phil A as a hybrid shooter every single extra piece of equipment becomes a PITA when on set as a hybrid solo shooter.

 

For my use case I am almost always shooting solo, on a single shoot I could be dealing with light stands, studio strobes, remote flash triggers, photo camera body and diffusers; I could also be shooting video clips from a tripod or handheld, monopod, and sometimes gimbal.....mixed into all of that of course are lenses, expo discs, ND filters, and sometimes audio which includes lavs, XLR adapters, and transmitters / receivers or XLR wiring. Lets not forget continuous video lighting, smoke machines etc.. let's not forget the obligatory drone which is needed for a few big picture drone video clips, and if a timelapse is needed that's a 3rd camera body, and lets not forget underwater if its a lifestyle shoot that wants to showcase their pool or a modeling swimwear shoot so that's a 4th camera body....all as a one man shooter.

So you ask what has happened over the last decade? What happened is customers expect more than ever before but at the same time they pay less than ever before.  In my particular area the local market is saturated with photographers and videographers all under cutting each other bidding on the same clients; those same clients that half the time feel like cell phone footage is probably good enough anyway so why bother hiring us to begin with. So yes, I absolutely will gladly use the absolute smallest simplest configuration possible to get the job done.  This is why I got the S5, this is why I have an EF adapter to minimize my lens kit, this is why I don't use anything external if I can help it including recorders or even monitors, and this is also why I don't care as much about RAW as I do about 4K 10 bit internally recorded. Yes BRAW 12:1 would be nice when its time to edit the footage but 10bit 4K recorded internally to dual cards is WAY more important to me as is a single lens mount that will work on everything from my C200 to my 5DIV to my S5.

 

Specs are great to read about or watch on YouTube. but they are a tiny part of the big picture and the realities you face working in this industry every day. And I'm not talking about the big name commercial production industry, I'm talking about the in between industry where you are a shooter like me shooting weddings, music videos, small business promo videos, corporate events, real estate marketing videos, etc. There is a ton of paying work in this space that simply doesn't pay quite enough to bring in entire teams and assistants.

[SteveV4D]

39 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

this is also why I don't care as much about RAW as I do about 4K 10 bit internally recorded. Yes BRAW 12:1 would be nice when its time to edit the footage but 10bit 4K recorded internally to dual cards is WAY more important to me as is a single lens mount that will work on everything from my C200 to my 5DIV to my S5.

10 bit H264 isn't too bad to edit, but behind BRAW for ease in editing it and what you can do with the image; its using H265 for 10 bit that really makes editing a real drag.   The limitation with 10 bit in cameras is the codec. 

[herein2020]

3 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

10 bit H264 isn't too bad to edit, but behind BRAW for ease in editing it and what you can do with the image; its using H265 for 10 bit that really makes editing a real drag.   The limitation with 10 bit in cameras is the codec. 

For me its still a PITA. 4K60FPS 10 bit 4:2:0 H.264 out of the S5 in Davinci Resolve starts dropping frames after a color grade and a few transitions are added even with a 14 Core i9 CPU and RTX 2080Ti video card. I find it easiest to just generate optimized media for everything.  I'm thinking BRAW would be effortless but it would come with its own problems. I like to preview clips in VLC and Windows Explorer before importing them into the project, with BRAW that workflow would have to change.

[SteveV4D]

39 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

For me its still a PITA. 4K60FPS 10 bit 4:2:0 H.264 out of the S5 in Davinci Resolve starts dropping frames after a color grade and a few transitions are added even with a 14 Core i9 CPU and RTX 2080Ti video card. I find it easiest to just generate optimized media for everything.  I'm thinking BRAW would be effortless but it would come with its own problems. I like to preview clips in VLC and Windows Explorer before importing them into the project, with BRAW that workflow would have to change.

I recall I could never play back 10 bit files on my computer outside of editing software.  So I got use to just watching and working with them all in the edit.   They end up there anyway, and I can preview them all I like.  This is better anyway as they are log colour and I can apply the default LUT to see them how they were shot.  Not sure VLC allows that for 10 bit files, even if my computer can now play them.

[elgabogomez]

VLC is a weird, unpredictable program. It can read dnxhd and dnxhr files, but gets tripped by prores on occasion (4k prores) sometimes it reads s1h h264 4:2:2 10 bit files (24p) but sometimes it just reads the first seconds and then gets stuck buffering, h265 gets read fine if the drive it’s reading from is ssd but not a spinning drive... there’s a 30% chance it will read files without issues. I switched to media player classic for reviewing material, sad really as with vlc I can Desqueeze anamorphic footage and even change colors to something somewhat watchable in log footage.

On braw footage, Blackmagic has a raw viewer so you don’t have to open resolve to review footage.

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

I recall I could never play back 10 bit files on my computer outside of editing software.  So I got use to just watching and working with them all in the edit.   They end up there anyway, and I can preview them all I like.  This is better anyway as they are log colour and I can apply the default LUT to see them how they were shot.  Not sure VLC allows that for 10 bit files, even if my computer can now play them.

My workflow is probably different from most; for speed I don't import anything into DR or LightRoom until I've checked it with an external app. I set up all of my organization in Windows Explorer and pull footage into the editing app after previewing it in VLC (video) or FastStone (Photos).  For me this is faster than having to do this in the app and makes archiving, storage, and editing more efficient.  My folder structure and metatags let me find almost any project and any footage within seconds across all of my storage devices without having to open the NLE or photo editor so if VLC couldn't read the video footage that would impact me quite a bit.

This was yet another strike against the R6....the H.265 footage out of that camera nothing would play except the 5K player which I don't like, also Windows Explorer was unable to show the first frame of the video which is what I use to quickly locate source clips when editing a project. Its also why I would rather create proxy files than work with raw footage.

 

2 hours ago, elgabogomez said:

VLC is a weird, unpredictable program. It can read dnxhd and dnxhr files, but gets tripped by prores on occasion (4k prores) sometimes it reads s1h h264 4:2:2 10 bit files (24p) but sometimes it just reads the first seconds and then gets stuck buffering, h265 gets read fine if the drive it’s reading from is ssd but not a spinning drive... there’s a 30% chance it will read files without issues. I switched to media player classic for reviewing material, sad really as with vlc I can Desqueeze anamorphic footage and even change colors to something somewhat watchable in log footage.

On braw footage, Blackmagic has a raw viewer so you don’t have to open resolve to review footage.

That is pretty cool, especially if it has a Windows Explorer type interface that lets you see the first frame of all of the clips in the folder, I use this feature as well with Windows Explorer to quickly select clips to preview.

[SteveV4D]

6 hours ago, herein2020 said:

My workflow is probably different from most; for speed I don't import anything into DR or LightRoom until I've checked it with an external app. I set up all of my organization in Windows Explorer and pull footage into the editing app after previewing it in VLC (video) or FastStone (Photos).  For me this is faster than having to do this in the app and makes archiving, storage, and editing more efficient.  My folder structure and metatags let me find almost any project and any footage within seconds across all of my storage devices without having to open the NLE or photo editor so if VLC couldn't read the video footage that would impact me quite a bit.

So your choice of camera and codec is dictated as much by VLC as the editing software.  I couldn't work like that; I prefer a more flexible workflow.  I simply have a spreadsheet of all my projects, with columns for Main drive and backup drive to tell me where they are.  My file management works very well for me without relying on video players.  I found them too quirky for me, and of course with RAW, you can't use them anyway.  Aside from BM own one.

What happens should a time comes when RAW is available to you, and worth shooting for a project?   Panasonic, Nikon and Sony have or soon will, external RAW, Canon R5 has internal already.  Its only a matter of time before internal RAW becomes the norm, as technology rarely stays still for long.  Everyone says they are happy with 10 bit.  But then I had people say that about 8 bit when the GH5 first came out.  Now its almost taken for granted you shoot 10 bit.

[SteveV4D]

7 hours ago, herein2020 said:

That is pretty cool, especially if it has a Windows Explorer type interface that lets you see the first frame of all of the clips in the folder, I use this feature as well with Windows Explorer to quickly select clips to preview.

With BM RAW player installed, you see thumbnails in explorer for the RAW files, just as you would any video file.  So I don't have to import into Resolve to see what each clip is.  I don't really use the player to playback the files, as I do this in Resolve, but I tried it now and it works very smoothly.

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

So your choice of camera and codec is dictated as much by VLC as the editing software.  I couldn't work like that; I prefer a more flexible workflow.  I simply have a spreadsheet of all my projects, with columns for Main drive and backup drive to tell me where they are.  My file management works very well for me without relying on video players.  I found them too quirky for me, and of course with RAW, you can't use them anyway.  Aside from BM own one.

What happens should a time comes when RAW is available to you, and worth shooting for a project?   Panasonic, Nikon and Sony have or soon will, external RAW, Canon R5 has internal already.  Its only a matter of time before internal RAW becomes the norm, as technology rarely stays still for long.  Everyone says they are happy with 10 bit.  But then I had people say that about 8 bit when the GH5 first came out.  Now its almost taken for granted you shoot 10 bit.

My C200 shoots RAW and I've never shot a project that needed it.  As others on this thread have mentioned, personally I think RAW is overrated, the H.264 options are good enough for my clients and everything I do in my workflow is for speed. I use folder organization for speed and storage efficiency, I use metatags for speed and searching efficiency regardless of where the footage is stored, etc.  My camera choice and codec is not dictated by VLC at all, it just so happens that VLC has always been compatible with my camera choices and codec. For example I tested the R6, if it had worked out for me and was perfect for my uses I would have switched to the 5K player and kept the R6....but as it turned out it did not meet my needs in any way.

 

I'm not shooting the next Hollywood blockbuster, I am shooting for clients that are not paying me 1 penny extra if I take longer to complete their project or if their project size is 500GB vs. 10GB, and those facts are what dictate my camera choices and workflow. I was perfectly happy with 8 bit from the GH5 and the only reason I am shooting 10 bit now is because the S5 can do 10 bit 4K60FPS.  If internal RAW becomes the norm, by the time I start using it (5-10yrs from now) if ever, then there will probably be a way to add support for it in the Windows OS just like they support RAW photos so if I ever do make the jump to RAW my current workflow will probably support it just like it supports 8 bit and 10 bit LongGOP. If you WB properly and get the exposure within the limits of the sensor's dynamic range you can make most H.264 footage look just as good as most RAW footage. I went into more detail with my particular workflow here: https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/47655-davinci-resolve-lock-adjustment-layer/?tab=comments#comment-381308.

This is just my opinion, but the spreadsheet approach sounds terrible to me, I'd much rather be able to just type into a search field and find every single clip with a waterfall in it across 100TB of storage and 6 different storage locations and hundreds of projects vs. looking at a spreadsheet; and my current workflow lets me do that. It also lets me clean up my storage once a year across all of the projects for the year by deleting every single clip and every single image across all of my storage devices that was not used in the final project.

As far as VLC being quirky, the R6 was only the second time that I had any problems and that was because it shot H.265 which cannot be HW accelerated.  The only other time I had problems with VLC was with the GoPro H.265 footage and for that I also have to use the 5K player. 

 

[herein2020]

---Deleted--- Duplicate post

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

With BM RAW player installed, you see thumbnails in explorer for the RAW files, just as you would any video file.  So I don't have to import into Resolve to see what each clip is.  I don't really use the player to playback the files, as I do this in Resolve, but I tried it now and it works very smoothly.

That is pretty cool, I've never considered BM a viable option for me though, since I shoot 50/50 photos and video.

[SteveV4D]

41 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

My C200 shoots RAW and I've never shot a project that needed it.  As others on this thread have mentioned, personally I think RAW is overrated, the H.264 options are good enough for my clients and everything I do in my workflow is for speed. 

I'm not shooting the next Hollywood blockbuster, I am shooting for clients that are not paying me 1 penny extra if I take longer to complete their project or if their project size is 500GB vs.

This is just my opinion, but the spreadsheet approach sounds terrible to me, 

 

I think you have the wrong idea about how I use the spreadsheet.  Its there to keep track of the drive location of each project.  Its not there for each clip.  Each Wedding and Corporate job I film has a numbered folder with all clips and material, plus a duplicate back up folder and its this I keep track of.  I rarely shoot something for multiple projects.  So a single folder, with subfolders within them, have all the video clips I need to work on that project.  In a normal year, I will film over 80 Weddings, plus have another 10 covered by another video guy, as well as a dozen Corporate jobs.  Each Wedding, I am doing a Full Length, Highlights and Teaser.  Plus some have shortform videos, Marryokes, Guest Messages and Cinematic Video.  Thats a lot of editing work per year.  So my workflow and BRAW doesn't slow me down at all.  If anything, BRAW has sped up my workflow as it is considerably smoother to edit and colour correcting it is so much easier. 

RAW is no different to editing H264.  Theres no extra procedure for it, unless you wish to click to edit the settings rather than use the default filming ones.   There are lots of urban myths over how hard it is to edit RAW and how it adds to the workflow.  Only people avoiding or can't use it will say its over rated. 

Then again, the term over rated has been applied to almost any aspect of video.  Slowmo footage, drones, gimbal, sliders, time-lapse, log colour profile, 4K, 10 bit, RAW, fullframe.   Shall we just say that every aspect of video is considered over rated by some as there will be those who will use it and others who will justify not using it.  😄😄

I'm not shooting a Hollywood blockbuster either and BRAW for me is about having an easier time editing,  having the options to fine tune the white balance, which is considerably easier with RAW over H264 and being able to push the grade for those shots that need it.  

 

[SteveV4D]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

I went into more detail with my particular workflow here: https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/47655-davinci-resolve-lock-adjustment-layer/?tab=comments#comment-381308.

 

I had a look.  Our work differs.  Weddings I don't have a discard bin, and I'd rather have all the clips to hand until the project finishes.  Once the project is archived, I delete the project folder and all original files.  I can't reuse Wedding material, aside from some shots of buildings and even that rarely works.  A summer shot of a venue looks out of a place in an Autumn Wedding and I work a wide variety of venues anyway to make it practical.

I colour tag each camera and each camera has its own layer.  This way I can colour correct one cameras files by hiding the other layers.  I use shared nodes for common corrections for a single camera, then tweak with new nodes if needed.  With Resolve, I can make a change in the RAW settings and apply it to multiple clips.  This saves me time, if I want to do a white balance correct to say the evening dance footage, of which there will be loads of clips. 

Typical Wedding, I have 400 to 500 clips to work on, so I don't waste too much time with metatags.   I manage the clips in Resolve and assign to sub folders within the software as I go through them.

[Danyyyel]

5 hours ago, herein2020 said:

That is pretty cool, I've never considered BM a viable option for me though, since I shoot 50/50 photos and video.

I am also a hybrid shooter, I own 2 Nikon Z6 but don't know if it can fit into a hybrid shooter because of the external recorder. Now when I think about a recorder like this might be smaller than a Flash.

[Danyyyel]

Now I never thought about shooting RAW, but that BMRAW is intriguing because of the size and from every first hand account and on the net it works very well in davinci resolve. The 12.1 would be about 220-230 mbits, that is insane. The 8.1 would be about 300- 320 mbits which is also very very low.

[herein2020]

4 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

I had a look.  Our work differs.  Weddings I don't have a discard bin, and I'd rather have all the clips to hand until the project finishes.  Once the project is archived, I delete the project folder and all original files.  I can't reuse Wedding material, aside from some shots of buildings and even that rarely works.  A summer shot of a venue looks out of a place in an Autumn Wedding and I work a wide variety of venues anyway to make it practical.

I colour tag each camera and each camera has its own layer.  This way I can colour correct one cameras files by hiding the other layers.  I use shared nodes for common corrections for a single camera, then tweak with new nodes if needed.  With Resolve, I can make a change in the RAW settings and apply it to multiple clips.  This saves me time, if I want to do a white balance correct to say the evening dance footage, of which there will be loads of clips. 

Typical Wedding, I have 400 to 500 clips to work on, so I don't waste too much time with metatags.   I manage the clips in Resolve and assign to sub folders within the software as I go through them.

That makes sense, I rarely shoot weddings they just don't pay enough in my area, but I do shoot a lot of random weird projects that typically need b-roll that I can use from a different project.  Also I live in FL...we don't have a winter or a summer it all looks the same year round, so even that works for me. Its always interesting to see how other's workflow works based on their geographic location and the types of work they do. For weddings you definitely cannot reuse most if any of that footage so I'd skip metatags too in that scenario.

[ND64]

20 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

Now I never thought about shooting RAW, but that BMRAW is intriguing because of the size and from every first hand account and on the net it works very well in davinci resolve. The 12.1 would be about 220-230 mbits, that is insane. The 8.1 would be about 300- 320 mbits which is also very very low.

Anything less than 12 makes RED start barking. 

[Danyyyel]

10 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Anything less than 12 makes RED start barking. 

Is that true, perhaps they are paying some licensing.

[newfoundmass]

External RAW is nice to have if you need it, but having to send your camera in is ridiculous. 10 bit is much more useful for 99% of the work most of us do... Give us that, internally, please. I want Nikon to succeed, it's better for everyone, but c'mon. 

[Video Hummus]

Amazing Canon of all companies did it right (within constraints) of offering internal Canon RAW Light in the R5 (with the next firmware update). The landscape, or should I say more accurately, my particular views of what companies are doing the most interesting things...and its Canon and Blackmagic. Hoping BM will embrace RF mount or at least embrace a easily adapted BM mount so you can use whatever lens you want on it. Plus, they are doing internal RAW as well. External recording just sucks. No thank you.

Sony is a juggernaut of market control so they aren’t going anywhere either. I just find I don’t much enjoy using their cameras even if the specs are outrageous.