Best system to invest in for videography?

[ntblowz]

At this current pandemic it's kinda dumb to invest huge money for wedding business 

[MrSMW]

11 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

At this current pandemic it's kinda dumb to invest huge money for wedding business 

Taking it even further...

A: one body + one lens to practice with until you get close to your first job and then...and only then...

B: buy another identical body (so there is no learning curve) and a second lens so you can do the work.

Then there is the rest of it; audio, lighting, tripod, mono, gimbal if that’s your thing, etc.

But right now, not wishing to discourage anyone, it’s not the best time to be trying to start out in this industry for sure.

 

[maxmizer]

14 hours ago, mkabi said:

And, from what I understand is that this guy wants to start in Wedding videos and move to doc and commercial work.

Blowing it all on just a body.... doesn’t make sense.

Equipment cost < Business Profit

Look at high end equipment later. Start getting customers first... start charging a rate that covers your hours put into it + equipment rental rate (estimate).

If you get enough customers then invest in equipment.

Okay but he's shooting too high ... He just needs a used gh5 ... to start ... lots of objectives and accessories out there cheap ...

Fx6 or c90 will not be cheap and not very far from 10k!

[John Matthews]

Or don't buy. Just rent. Get a cheap, used M43 camera with a zoom for scouting shots if needed. Charge everything else to your customer. Keep your money and buy me a beer. 🙂

[IronFilm]

Here is the way I see it:

All DSLR mounts: headed the way of the dodo. Buy this if you see some amazing secondhand bargains, but be very careful not to do anything that leaves you "locked into" the mount. (such as buying electronic EF mount lenses! No, no, no)

MFT Mount: the widest range of options, with the widest range of brand/manufacturer support. Some people look down at 4/3" sensors as being "too small", when in reality they're only marginally smaller than the classic standard of Super 35mm that has ruled Oscars / Golden Globe / Emmy Awards etc for many years. 

Sony E Mount: 2nd best behind MFT Mount when it comes to wide ranging choices to pick from, and E Mount is especially strong when it comes to having many choices of camera bodies on both the stills side (the a7 & a6xxx series) and the cinema side (VENICE/FX9/FS7/FS5/etc) of things too. There is a reasonable fear that Sony is "turning into the next Canon" (in a bad way). That Sony might be resting on their laurels and not pushing ahead with innovation like they used to do when they were the new kid on the block and hungry for success. 

Canon EOS-M: the writing is on the wall, they're going the way of the dodo too. Canon will eventually ditch EOS-M and focus exclusively on their RF Mount. 

Pentax Q / Nikon 1: huh, what?

Fujifilm X / Nikon Z: great stills cameras that have taken great leaps forward in recent years with their video capabilities, but nothing higher end if you wish to upgrade later on to a cinema body instead of just using a stills/hybrid camera. 

Canon RF: what to get if you're a Canon fanboy with stockholm syndrome, instead of using your switch to mirrorless as an opportunity to free yourself from your Canon chains of bondage! (however, like any other ruling tyrant, Canon does hang out a carrot in front of you as a faint glimmer of hope that "the future will be different, and all your patience through the abuse will be worth it in the end". As the Canon C70 in particular is an impressive new release, will the C70 live up to its hype? Does the release of the C70 mark a future change for new camera releases from Canon? Or will Canon quickly back slide into their bad old ways?)

[IronFilm]

On 11/6/2020 at 4:12 AM, mkabi said:

And, from what I understand is that this guy wants to start in Wedding videos and move to doc and commercial work.

Blowing it all on just a body.... doesn’t make sense.

Equipment cost < Business Profit

Look at high end equipment later. Start getting customers first... start charging a rate that covers your hours put into it + equipment rental rate (estimate).

If you get enough customers then invest in equipment.

Indeed. Agreed 110%
 

On 11/6/2020 at 6:42 PM, maxmizer said:

Okay but he's shooting too high ... He just needs a used gh5 ... to start ... lots of objectives and accessories out there cheap ...

Fx6 or c90 will not be cheap and not very far from 10k!

For someone starting out with their first camera, even a used GH5 is overkill. A secondhand Panasonic G7 or G85 would be plenty fine as well!
 

On 11/6/2020 at 6:05 AM, ntblowz said:

At this current pandemic it's kinda dumb to invest huge money for wedding business 

Indeed. Agreed 110%

 

On 11/6/2020 at 6:16 AM, MrSMW said:

Taking it even further...

A: one body + one lens to practice with until you get close to your first job and then...and only then...

Yes, the learning curve last a looong time (I'd say it lasts your whole life time!). 
By the time you get to point you can land those "big jobs" on a consistent basis, your Sony FX9 / Canon C70 / whatever is now "outdated". 

 

On 11/6/2020 at 6:16 AM, MrSMW said:

B: buy another identical body (so there is no learning curve) and a second lens so you can do the work.

Wouldn't even get an identical body. You can go cheaper!
If I was recommending to someone to start out with the aim to film weddings, I'd suggest the Panasonic G85 / G7 combo. 

 

On 11/6/2020 at 6:16 AM, MrSMW said:

Then there is the rest of it; audio, lighting, tripod, mono, gimbal if that’s your thing, etc.

Yes, all of that will add up to a total cost which is far far far higher than the price of a couple of camera bodies!

 

On 11/6/2020 at 6:16 AM, MrSMW said:

But right now, not wishing to discourage anyone, it’s not the best time to be trying to start out in this industry for sure.

Indeed. Agreed 110%

[Matins 2]

Right now, I'd say Sony.

[KClib]

I'm going to agree with a lot of people here - don't blow all your money on expensive bodies. I shoot weddings and commercial work and get great results with my GH5s and Xt3. If the corporate/commercial job is less than $20k, I use my own gear. If it's over, I'll rent. Or I'll even hire a more experienced DP with their own kit, since I consider myself more of a Director/Producer. A few years ago I shot a $250k video game trailer with a Sony A7s (1st version) and the clients and audience lapped it up.

If you can't make amazing looking videos with the gh5 or xt3/4 you have no business charging anyone money for your work. A C70 or A7s3 won't magically make your videos stand out. We bill around $150k a year and have no intention of upgrading until well into 2021 (even though shiny new cameras are tempting!). The reason? $0 return on investment.

I'll disagree with a few posters on here though - 2021 could be an amazing year to get into weddings. I'm not sure where you are based, but here in Canada, most 2020 couples moved their weddings to 2021. Then 2021 couples heard about that and started booking up services like crazy. As I said to my wife, prime Saturday's in 2021 were the new toilet paper. Normally we'd have around 12 bookings for the next year. Right now we have over 30, with inquiries not really letting up. So, depending on your market, there might be scope to pick up a lot of excess work.

So my advise to you would be to pick up a GH5 or XT3/4 (they're quite easy to match in post if you want to get one of each) and make the most of them. They're both amazing, with the some advantages of each being:

GH5

- about the best IBIS around (which is very handy for weddings)

- battery life

- interface / usability

- sync scan (this feature has saved several shoots and isn't even available on the A7s3. Not even sure it's on the C70)

- build quality and reliability.

 

XT3/4

- 14 stops dynamic range, 10 bit internal up to 4k 60p. Having this on the $999 XT3 is mind blowing value.

- beautiful colour

- wonderful stills camera

- good autofocus

 

From my experience, both cameras work best when shooting HLG and then converting the footage to rec 709.

Then get a few essential EF lenses, which you can easily adapt. In the case of the fuji, you can get the fringer adapter which allows you to use autofocus quit reliably (depending on the lens). If you do go Fuji, it's well worth including the kit lens - it's really excellent value and gives you a nice lightweight option for a gimbal. By the way, lenses are dirt cheap to rent. $30-40 for a weekend.

Oh, and buy everything used. Personally, I get most of my gear from the B&H used department. That way, if it all goes t*ts up, you can sell it off with minimal loss.

 

[mkabi]

I will add one last point from my end.

In the video business - if you are doing it all alone -> There isn't enough talk about editing (well not much talk about it here) - and I'm not talking about editing equipment (monitor, cpu, software, speakers etc. - although that does matter to a degree) - just sitting there, reviewing the footage, transcoding, bringing it on the timeline, stitching it together, adding sound and/or music, adding effects, etc. <- fucken time consuming shit.

Your 1 day shoot, ends up being weeks of editing - nobody talks about that...

I know there are ads on kijiji/craiglist - wedding videographer - $500/$1000 - may be if you're a beginner and you want to build a portfolio to show future clients. But that quickly becomes a nightmare.  

Ask yourself, "What is my worth?" Are you worth $15/hr, $25/hr, $50/hr or more? Then add it all up.

8 to 12 hours of being on set filming.

Then 2 weeks of editing (average of 8 to 10 hours of sitting in front of a computer editing the video per day) <- practice your ass off to get your wedding videos down to 2 weeks of editing. Excluding weekends, we have about 80 to 100 hours. 

So, total time spent its about 88 hours to 112hours - at $15/hr - $1320 to $1680; at $25/hr - $2200 to $2800, and at $50/hr - $4400 to $5600. 

Again - keep in mind - your experience level, who is willing to pay those amounts for your experience level and you are doing this all alone (consider getting help - adding to your crew and the mark up in price). This is just for your labour. I'm not talking about equipment cost, etc.

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, mkabi said:

8 to 12 hours of being on set filming.

Then 2 weeks of editing (average of 8 to 10 hours of sitting in front of a computer editing the video per day) <- practice your ass off to get your wedding videos down to 2 weeks of editing. Excluding weekends, we have about 80 to 100 hours. 

Interesting...and I appreciate this is a slight digression, but for me 8-12 hours filming = about the same in the office.

Commercial or wedding, within 1 working day, I have started, finished, exported and uploaded a typical (for weddings anyway) 9-12 minute wedding film plus second full ceremony & speeches production.

I will however typically spread that workload over 2 days just because I can and won’t deliver to clients for at least 7 days if not longer because I tell them it’s about a week’s work to give my worth more ‘value’.

This could be because I am a very efficient person by nature, do not procrastinate and work to my own brief and no one else’s.
Yes, even commercial. 

 

[mkabi]

13 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Interesting...and I appreciate this is a slight digression, but for me 8-12 hours filming = about the same in the office.

Commercial or wedding, within 1 working day, I have started, finished, exported and uploaded a typical (for weddings anyway) 9-12 minute wedding film plus second full ceremony & speeches production.

I will however typically spread that workload over 2 days just because I can and won’t deliver to clients for at least 7 days if not longer because I tell them it’s about a week’s work to give my worth more ‘value’.

This could be because I am a very efficient person by nature, do not procrastinate and work to my own brief and no one else’s.
Yes, even commercial. 

 

Yes. Please share your workflow. Do you label the clips in camera? Do you jot down which clips look the best on a clipboard or something? What about retakes? Bloopers and mistakes? 
 

 

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, mkabi said:

Do you jot down which clips look the best on a clipboard or something?

This is a handy tool for automating that:
https://logger.ambient.de/

 

 

[scotchtape]

4 hours ago, mkabi said:

Yes. Please share your workflow. Do you label the clips in camera? Do you jot down which clips look the best on a clipboard or something? What about retakes? Bloopers and mistakes? 
 

 

If it's interview / standups I either make a mental note of best take or write it down. After bringing all the clips in I just watch it all at 2x speed and pick out the best parts and put that in a timeline

Scrub through b-roll to find best parts, put best parts in another timeline.

Then I have the best parts of each sections and I can pick and choose which parts to add.

These are like 1-3 minute corporate videos, pricing is like shop work, oil change is billed at a certain time regardless of how long it takes, unless it takes longer because of clients requesting changes etc. But it doesn't take weeks of actual work time...

I don't do weddings, time depends on your deliverables.  If it's like one 3-5 minute video that's probably like 20hrs of editing.  However, plenty of people do same day edits, so really it's up to you as to how long you want to spend in the edit.  (Of course SDE is not the same as final product, just saying you can rough cut something together pretty quick...)

[mkabi]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

This is a handy tool for automating that:
https://logger.ambient.de/

 

 

Now this - is something I want now. Kickstarter though.... 

[MrSMW]

12 hours ago, mkabi said:

Yes. Please share your workflow. Do you label the clips in camera? Do you jot down which clips look the best on a clipboard or something? What about retakes? Bloopers and mistakes? 
 

 

OK, no problem.

1: Shoot with intent in the first place. I rarely shoot anything 'just because' and if I know it's going to be garbage, don't bother in the first place. Once I know I have what I want which is typically, A: the obvious and B: the more creative, I stop shooting that/any scene and move on. Net result, from a typical wedding day, I might come back with 300+ clips.

2: I'm shooting 2 cameras: The first is designated 'filming' and is for capturing clips and is on a freestanding monopod. The other is designated 'video' and is for longer stuff ie, the ceremony and the speeches and lives on a tripod. The latter also records the master audio using Rode Wireless Go.

3: Get back from the job and download cards.

4: Start watching footage straight from the folder and I simply note all clips that have potential and scribble a few notes if needs be in regard to how/where I am going to use certain clips or something else specific.

5: In Premiere, dump the ceremony footage and audio onto the timeline. Add the ceremony lav mic audio. Auto-sync. Cut & delete master (the Go material) when and where individual lav mic material is better such as readings and vows. 

6: It's a single viewpoint piece, so there is no visual material to mess with, just the audio. Add a fade in and add a fade out. Export, job done. There's no 'grading' as such as I don't shoot log though I may make a global adjustment to exposure or contrast etc, but nothing that takes longer than a couple of minutes max. Seconds normally.

7: Repeat same process for speeches. Couple of hours max and these 2 productions are finished.

8: Chop & copy the vows out of the ceremony plus a few key lines from each of the speeches and dump all of these onto a new timeline for the 'Wedding Film'. I have already chosen which 2-3 tracks I will be using which I did on the previous job I was editing photography on, ie, I listen to Artlist.io whilst editing photography and marking favourites for potential future wedding film use. I then group tracks into blocks of 2 or 3 to make approx 8-12 minute productions and choose one for whatever film job I am about to start based on 'feel' such as "this one felt a bit more lively" or "this one suits something more gentle" etc.

9: So dump my 2-3 tracks on the timeline which now has these tracks plus synced/finished footage/audio from vows and speeches.

10: Start dragging over clips and building the story based on 2 factors; chronological order of events and the soundtrack. It doesn't take long to add and cut 50-100 clips.

11: Tidy up all the material into one cohesive whole other than any grading or transitions or ducking etc.

12: Tweak each clip in order as in 'grading' except in my case, it's not really grading as such as all I am doing is making a few minor scopes adjustments mainly, add any transitions and duck anything that needs ducking.

13: Export and watch through and then go back to make any final adjustments and add titles.

I can't think of anything else really.

The bottom line for me is that having come from being a photographer, I think and work like a photographer who just happens to be capturing longer versions of my photography in addition to my photography. It actually requires very little thought, barely more time on the job and obviously more time in the office, but not these weeks and weeks I hear some folks talking about.

And as I said before, I don't overshoot, I don't dither, I don't procrastinate and naturally am very efficient, do not get distracted easily and work extremely quickly compared to most.

I hope that helps!

 

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, mkabi said:

Now this - is something I want now. Kickstarter though.... 

Was Kickstarter. 

They're a company which has been around for many many many years. This brand is a major player in the pro sound world for tv/film. 

Kickstarter was more an avenue to help them get the word out. And that Kickstarter campaign is over anyway. 

Get it now if you want to. 

 

[DustinS]

On 11/3/2020 at 12:10 PM, Rinad Amir said:

Id rent first before splashing 10k on equipment!

Try both systems out for week or two and then make move!

 

 

100% this ^^^. Get a gig first, rent some gear that allows you to turn a profit, then see what pain points you encountered. Try to address those for your next shoot. Rinse and repeat. 

[mkabi]

13 hours ago, MrSMW said:

OK, no problem.

1: Shoot with intent in the first place. I rarely shoot anything 'just because' and if I know it's going to be garbage, don't bother in the first place. Once I know I have what I want which is typically, A: the obvious and B: the more creative, I stop shooting that/any scene and move on. Net result, from a typical wedding day, I might come back with 300+ clips.

2: I'm shooting 2 cameras: The first is designated 'filming' and is for capturing clips and is on a freestanding monopod. The other is designated 'video' and is for longer stuff ie, the ceremony and the speeches and lives on a tripod. The latter also records the master audio using Rode Wireless Go.

3: Get back from the job and download cards.

4: Start watching footage straight from the folder and I simply note all clips that have potential and scribble a few notes if needs be in regard to how/where I am going to use certain clips or something else specific.

5: In Premiere, dump the ceremony footage and audio onto the timeline. Add the ceremony lav mic audio. Auto-sync. Cut & delete master (the Go material) when and where individual lav mic material is better such as readings and vows. 

6: It's a single viewpoint piece, so there is no visual material to mess with, just the audio. Add a fade in and add a fade out. Export, job done. There's no 'grading' as such as I don't shoot log though I may make a global adjustment to exposure or contrast etc, but nothing that takes longer than a couple of minutes max. Seconds normally.

7: Repeat same process for speeches. Couple of hours max and these 2 productions are finished.

8: Chop & copy the vows out of the ceremony plus a few key lines from each of the speeches and dump all of these onto a new timeline for the 'Wedding Film'. I have already chosen which 2-3 tracks I will be using which I did on the previous job I was editing photography on, ie, I listen to Artlist.io whilst editing photography and marking favourites for potential future wedding film use. I then group tracks into blocks of 2 or 3 to make approx 8-12 minute productions and choose one for whatever film job I am about to start based on 'feel' such as "this one felt a bit more lively" or "this one suits something more gentle" etc.

9: So dump my 2-3 tracks on the timeline which now has these tracks plus synced/finished footage/audio from vows and speeches.

10: Start dragging over clips and building the story based on 2 factors; chronological order of events and the soundtrack. It doesn't take long to add and cut 50-100 clips.

11: Tidy up all the material into one cohesive whole other than any grading or transitions or ducking etc.

12: Tweak each clip in order as in 'grading' except in my case, it's not really grading as such as all I am doing is making a few minor scopes adjustments mainly, add any transitions and duck anything that needs ducking.

13: Export and watch through and then go back to make any final adjustments and add titles.

I can't think of anything else really.

The bottom line for me is that having come from being a photographer, I think and work like a photographer who just happens to be capturing longer versions of my photography in addition to my photography. It actually requires very little thought, barely more time on the job and obviously more time in the office, but not these weeks and weeks I hear some folks talking about.

And as I said before, I don't overshoot, I don't dither, I don't procrastinate and naturally am very efficient, do not get distracted easily and work extremely quickly compared to most.

I hope that helps!

 

Yeah. I don't have patience like you bros. Just thinking about rewatching 300+ clips (from point 1) straight for another 8 hours (or less; from point 4) is making my stomach turn. Each to his/her own...

But, this shows the dedication you need to remain happy in this industry. Do that 15 to 20 times a year, just for weddings.... and you will know if that is what you want to do.... even if its for short term.

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Was Kickstarter. 

They're a company which has been around for many many many years. This brand is a major player in the pro sound world for tv/film. 

Kickstarter was more an avenue to help them get the word out. And that Kickstarter campaign is over anyway. 

Get it now if you want to. 

 

Thanks for the heads up; ordered.

[MrSMW]

10 hours ago, mkabi said:

Just thinking about rewatching 300+ clips (from point 1) straight for another 8 hours

Nah, it’s about an hour max. Average clip is 10 seconds and I don’t watch every single one as some are repeats and if the first one was what I wanted, skip to the next clip.

This way I only import into Premiere clips I will probably or definitely using.