Is Panasonic GH4 going to change the industry?

[Nikkor]

The next gh won't be 8K,the next trend is high dynamic range 16bit isoless sensors.

[tosvus]

So no internal 10bit 4:2:2, fuck that, maybe someone comes up with a small hdmi recorder without a shitty screen like the ninja.

BMD Hyperdeck shuttle does 10-bit, but limited to 1080p30 and 1080p24. I'd probably be ok with that for a while. I'm sure 4K/higher framerate products will hit the market soon.

 

I'm mostly interested in this for some limited green-screen stuff.

[Brellivids]

I bet there will be new cheaper 4K recorders entering the market inside the next 6-8 months. 

 

I'm hopefull that metabones releases a GH4 focused wider speed booster that is optically better or as good as the orginal. 

 

A speed booster that it is good enough for 4K and works well with the highest end lenses (Sigma art35mm, 85mm etc). I know the current one may be good enough allready but i have no experience from it. 

[Damphousse]

Quite the contrary, Mr. Reid. Perhaps I'm just "old" enough to have some perspective.  ;)

 

For some "perspective" look at the digital stills world.  The megapixel race ended years ago.  Canon is still the number one seller of DSLRs and they haven't bumped up the megapixel count in any significant way in their best selling cameras in years.  Good 4K looks very sharp even on non 4K monitors.  I don't think there is going to be much outcry to go beyond 4K for quite some time.  There are too many other aspects of the video image that need improving.  You run into diminishing returns the more you pump up resolution.  And no one is realistically going to be buying TVs bigger than 80 inches in mass quantities.

[Quirky]

For some "perspective" look at the digital stills world.  The megapixel race ended years ago.  Canon is still the number one seller of DSLRs and they haven't bumped up the megapixel count in any significant way in their best selling cameras in years.  Good 4K looks very sharp even on non 4K monitors.  I don't think there is going to be much outcry to go beyond 4K for quite some time.  There are too many other aspects of the video image that need improving.  You run into diminishing returns the more you pump up resolution.  And no one is realistically going to be buying TVs bigger than 80 inches in mass quantities.

 

Yeah, I know a thing or two about the stills world, but apparently you missed the whole point of my previous comment. I thought it was pretty obvious, without any need for the usual round of pedantics. But nevermind.

 

The "8K" reference was irrelevant. You can come up with almost any other buzzword in the place of the 8K one I used, and it wouldn't change anything. What people need and what they want are two different things. The usual suspects will come up with new improved shiny things and new buzzwords in few year cycles, and when they do, we will start wanting the new gadgets and we will buy them. Whether we really need them or not. When we want something, we easily come up with a need for it. 

 

Claiming "nobody is ever going to buy/need more than this or that" is one of the surest ways of getting a record in the history of irony, in not so distant future.

One famous Bill Gates quote comes to mind, which went something like "nobody is ever going to need more than 16 megabytes" or something along those lines. Which gave people good chuckles embarrassingly soon. Same was probably true when megapixels were counted in single digits. People are notoriously bad at estimating (guesstimating) things, but they are insatiable when it comes to wanting more stuff, better stuff, more and better stuff, or just more. 

 

This is not about hating technical progress. I for one embrace the arrival of 4K with open arms, especially affordable 4K. I, too, want better stuff, not necessarily more stuff.

 

But the original point of my original comment was to give a deliberately cynical reply to a (possibly rhetorical) question about how the GH4 is going to change the industry, or how is the industry going to react to it. I said I don't think the GH4 is going to change the game much, if at all, because this is just the beginning of another cycle of technical advancements. The others will follow suit eventually, with their own versions of the same 4K theme. Which people will buy, too, as usual. It won't happen overnight, though. Just wait and see.

 

I think it's also quite obvious that the cycles of technical advancements and product upgrades will not stop at 4K. Again, what exactly the next buzzword will be is irrelevant, but it will come. Within a few years after 4K hits mainstream. Then the good old carousel spins yet another cycle, and we'll pay up. I'm not against that, just stating the obvious.

[Nick Hughes]

The megapixel race ended years ago.  

 

While I do mostly agree with your point, I think the megapixel race still continues in many ways, perhaps mainly in the smartphone market. The Nokia PureView has a 41MP sensor, which seems absolutely ridiculous to me. I don't know if this spec is actually helping their sales, but they clearly thought it would attract some attention.

[Quirky]

PS. To touch another slightly OT topic a bit;

Most of the usual suspects are going through some tough times and rearranging of their business models. A half of the imaging dept. of Panasonic has been sold to an Israeli spook/imager company, Sony is about to sell their computer and TV business to concentrate more on sensors, cameras and cellphones. Apparently even the few remaining traditional camera companies are also redefining their core businesses behind the scenes. Their old brand inertia won't roll them forward forever, so they'll have to come up with something new soon, or crumble away.

 

It may all mean both good and bad for us. Good in sense that the manufacturers may have to give more focus and better products to us, the enthusiast and pro market, as the mainstream market is saturated, commodified and smartphone-ified, and the high end pro market alone is simply too small for the industry giants.  Bad in the sense that some players may exit the stage at some point, or some good product lines may end up being cancelled, if/when the big companies go to the usual panic/risk avoiding mode. But we'll see.

Perhaps the GH4 is one of the first samples of mostly the good impact of the changes, rather than the bad.

[Brellivids]

Only a handlfull of ppl will bother with Nikon 1v1  raw pic based videos anymore.. Since it would be plain ... I will not say the word  :D

[Quirky]

While I do mostly agree with your point, I think the megapixel race still continues in many ways, perhaps mainly in the smartphone market. The Nokia PureView has a 41MP sensor, which seems absolutely ridiculous to me. I don't know if this spec is actually helping their sales, but they clearly thought it would attract some attention.

 

Oh it does indeed help. The percentage of hardcore gadget geeks is particularly high among the smartphone users, and to them the bigger numbers and other such buzzwords are essential. I doubt that the megapixel race is over in the camera market, either, it has just stalled for a while. First the small sensor (compact) cameras and smartphone cameras will start getting bigger megapixel counts again, and later perhaps the interchangeable lens cameras, too. 

But that's a topic for another discussion, isn't it.

[Brellivids]

There is still use/ demand for larger megapixel cameras that are mainly used for high-end portrait / landscape work. At least in Canon's line-up. 

[odie]

PS. To touch another slightly OT topic a bit;

Most of the usual suspects are going through some tough times and rearranging of their business models. A half of the imaging dept. of Panasonic has been sold to an Israeli spook/imager company, Sony is about to sell their computer/IT business to concentrate more on sensors, cameras and cellphones. Apparently even the few remaining traditional camera companies are also redefining their core businesses behind the scenes. Their old brand inertia won't roll them forward forever, so they'll have to come up with something new soon, or crumble away.

 

It may all mean both good and bad for us. Good in sense that the manufacturers may have to give more focus and better products to us, the enthusiast and pro market, as the mainstream market is saturated, commodified and smartphone-ified, and the high end pro market alone is simply too small for the industry giants.  Bad in the sense that some players may exit the stage at some point, or some good product lines may end up being cancelled, if/when the big companies go to the usual panic/risk avoiding mode. But we'll see.

Perhaps the GH4 is one of the first samples of mostly the good impact of the changes, rather than the bad.

this is why i still try to shoot on film (and have kept my cameras)

[Damphousse]

While I do mostly agree with your point, I think the megapixel race still continues in many ways, perhaps mainly in the smartphone market. The Nokia PureView has a 41MP sensor, which seems absolutely ridiculous to me. I don't know if this spec is actually helping their sales, but they clearly thought it would attract some attention.

 

By definition a "race" needs at least two participants.  Other than nokia I don't see anyone releasing a 41 megapixel camera phone.  And even Nokia has said the main function of the 41 MP was down sampling and cropping.  Even Nokia hasn't followed up the Lumia 1020 with another 41 megapixel phone.  Their follow up flagship phone has something like 21 megapixels.  That phone is more of a phablet though.  I'm sure they will come up with another 41 megapixel imaging phone but it's not like they are putting that into every phone nor is it spuring Samsung and Apple to start upping the megapixels on their phones.  It's just a niche thing for nokia.

 

 

Claiming "nobody is ever going to buy/need more than this or that" is one of the surest ways of getting a record in the history of irony, in not so distant future.

 

I did not say that.  Please go back and reread what I wrote.  Look for the operative phrases "any time soon" and "mass market."  I'm sure five years from now there will be a billionare that has all kinds of weird crap in his or her castle.  That has nothing to do with what the mass market is going to be consuming in the next 2, 3, or 4 years.
 

 

 

One famous Bill Gates quote comes to mind, which went something like "nobody is ever going to need more than 16 megabytes" or something along those lines. Which gave people good chuckles embarrassingly soon.

 

 

Oh, brother.  Please do some research...

 

 

It was a bold proclamation from the tech world's leading visionary. "640K is more memory than anyone will ever need on a computer," Gates reportedly said at a computer trade show in the early 1980s. Only he didn't really say it.

This rumor refuses to die in spite of his repeated public protestations. "I've said some stupid things and some wrong things, but not that. No one involved in computers would ever say that a certain amount of memory is enough for all time."

In addition to his vehement denials, there doesn't seem to be any real forthcoming evidence regarding this quote -- either for or against its existence. Numerous publications have attempted in vain to confirm the now-infamous 640K statement.

 

http://www.howstuffworks.com/tech-myths/5-myths-about-bill-gates3.htm

 

I hope that at least on this forum that particular lie will not be repeated again.

 

 

 

The "8K" reference was irrelevant. You can come up with almost any other buzzword in the place of the 8K one I used, and it wouldn't change anything.

 

Actually it is relevant.  The mass market only cares about a very small number of things at one time.  That's what the problem is with those cherrypicked specs.  That's what drove us crazy about the megapixel race.  Companies were putting tiny noisy high megapixel sensors into all kinds of cameras and the mass market drooled all over them.  They totally ignored all other numbers and aspects of the chips.  Seriously ask the average DSLR owner about their camera and they will probably know the megapixels.  They may have a clue whether it is full frame or APS-C but beyond that I would say 80+% of them have no clue.  And that is what people have insinuated about video.  And my point is once you get to a sharp picture on an 80 inch screen there really is no benefit to the mass market for any more resolution.  Why?  Because in your false computer example I didn't have to knock out a wall in my living room to add more memory to my first computer.   TV screens can only get so big and then people have to move to new houses or start knocking out walls.  House sizes do grow on average in the US but even as bad as we are about buying unecessary space we don't need we aren't that wealthy nor obnoxious.

 

Photography forums have calmed way down from the way they were eight years ago.  Megapixels, Canon vs Nikon, Full frame vs APS-C, this stuff just doesn't start fights the way it used to.  Basically there is a general feeling of calm.  Most DSLRs from reputable companies are good enough for whatever you want to do.  Yeah there are people here and there asking for wifi, insane ISO levels, ridiculous fps, etc but most people are pretty honest and would say they have no real reason to buy a new DSLR.

[nigelbb]

That may be true but that's not the part of the curve we are playing on at the moment.  Low end video equipment still sucks.  I can go out right now with a $300 DSLR and a $100 lens and take pictures that will rival pro photography quality.  You can't say that about the video aspects of that same camera.

 

Photography cameras have gotten so good that really the camera body has in many ways ceased to be the limiting factor.  So for photography what you say is definitely true.  If someone says I can't shoot nice pictures because all I have is a Canon t3i then I know they suck at photography.  A 5D MK III isn't going to make their work noticeable better.

 

People always tell this lie that the chase for specs is never ending.  Well with digital photography it's ended for most of us.  Another 2, 3, 4, or 5 megapixels is not going to change our work dramatically.  Video will get to that point as well.  The number of people worrying about specs will get less and less as the technology improves.  People only rarely print pictures bigger than 11x14.  And likewise TVs will only get so big.  If you can fill a 70 inch screen with a sharp picture there really isn't going to be a lot of demand for even more resolution.

 

This was always true of film photography. The only real technical limitation on image quality was imposed by the lenses but even then he resolution of 35mm film is so much lower than the sensors on current digital cameras that quite soft lenses could still be acceptable.

[Quirky]

By definition a "race" needs at least two participants.  Other than nokia I don't see anyone releasing a 41 megapixel camera phone.  And even Nokia has said the main function of the 41 MP was down sampling and cropping.  Even Nokia hasn't followed up the Lumia 1020 with another 41 megapixel phone.  Their follow up flagship phone has something like 21 megapixels.  That phone is more of a phablet though.  I'm sure they will come up with another 41 megapixel imaging phone but it's not like they are putting that into every phone nor is it spuring Samsung and Apple to start upping the megapixels on their phones.  It's just a niche thing for nokia.

 

 

 

I did not say that.  Please go back and reread what I wrote.  Look for the operative phrases "any time soon" and "mass market."  I'm sure five years from now there will be a billionare that has all kinds of weird crap in his or her castle.  That has nothing to do with what the mass market is going to be consuming in the next 2, 3, or 4 years.
 

 

 

 

 

Oh, brother.  Please do some research...

 

 

http://www.howstuffworks.com/tech-myths/5-myths-about-bill-gates3.htm

 

I hope that at least on this forum that particular lie will not be repeated again.

 

 

 

 

Actually it is relevant.  The mass market only cares about a very small number of things at one time.  That's what the problem is with those cherrypicked specs.  That's what drove us crazy about the megapixel race.  Companies were putting tiny noisy high megapixel sensors into all kinds of cameras and the mass market drooled all over them.  They totally ignored all other numbers and aspects of the chips.  Seriously ask the average DSLR owner about their camera and they will probably know the megapixels.  They may have a clue whether it is full frame or APS-C but beyond that I would say 80+% of them have no clue.  And that is what people have insinuated about video.  And my point is once you get to a sharp picture on an 80 inch screen there really is no benefit to the mass market for any more resolution.  Why?  Because in your false computer example I didn't have to knock out a wall in my living room to add more memory to my first computer.   TV screens can only get so big and then people have to move to new houses or start knocking out walls.  House sizes do grow on average in the US but even as bad as we are about buying unecessary space we don't need we aren't that wealthy nor obnoxious.

 

Photography forums have calmed way down from the way they were eight years ago.  Megapixels, Canon vs Nikon, Full frame vs APS-C, this stuff just doesn't start fights the way it used to.  Basically there is a general feeling of calm.  Most DSLRs from reputable companies are good enough for whatever you want to do.  Yeah there are people here and there asking for wifi, insane ISO levels, ridiculous fps, etc but most people are pretty honest and would say they have no real reason to buy a new DSLR.

 

Your opinion has been noted. Thanks for your entertaining comment. 

It is always nice to start a lazy Sunday afternoon with a good chuckle, and on that cheerful note it's great to end this particular off-topic subthread.  :)

Have a nice day.

[Quirky]

The only real technical limitation on image quality was imposed by the lenses but even then he resolution of 35mm film is so much lower than the sensors on current digital cameras that quite soft lenses could still be acceptable.

 

It's not quite that simple in real life. But surely that's a story for another thread elsewhere, isn't it.

/OT

[Andrew Reid]

While I do mostly agree with your point, I think the megapixel race still continues in many ways, perhaps mainly in the smartphone market. The Nokia PureView has a 41MP sensor, which seems absolutely ridiculous to me. I don't know if this spec is actually helping their sales, but they clearly thought it would attract some attention.

 

Nothing ridiculous about that camera actually. Far better images than the iPhone 5S, 5 and 4S. Software lets it down by comparison by the sensor is a marvel. Better in low light than the iPhone as well. I reviewed the PureView 808 a while ago. Check this image out... then shut up...then get back on topic. THANKS

 

 

http://www.eoshd.com/content/8674/nokia-pureview-808-review-and-vs-iphone-4s

[Brellivids]

The Blackmagic production camera price drop by 1000$ from 4000$ to 3000$ there's a change that allready took place. Competition is good. it's a shame we do not have that in the CPU (computer processor) market. Intel has built the same product 4 times now. 

[tosvus]

I don't think that is a fair example though. The reason for the 41MP sensor (which granted gives noisy images in the dark), is that you don't have to incorporate a pretty bulky zoom in a small phone. In good light, it is very helpful both for video and pictures. (In bad light, you should not zoom, just let the phone/software downsize the 41MP to a farily usable quality 8MP shot (rather than the crop feature you use when you "zoom")

While I do mostly agree with your point, I think the megapixel race still continues in many ways, perhaps mainly in the smartphone market. The Nokia PureView has a 41MP sensor, which seems absolutely ridiculous to me. I don't know if this spec is actually helping their sales, but they clearly thought it would attract some attention.