ML Raw vs. GH4 etc.

[jasonmillard81]

Greetings friends,

 

Several months back I purchased a Canon 5d Mark III for video and photography.  I was debating between that and the GH3 and had chosen it for fear that the GH3 would give me too much of a "soccer mom video" feel to my videos.  

 

Since ML I have loved what everyone has been producing with it but have yet to dive in myself since I'm pretty much an amateur enthusiast, though I am willing to learn if it is not obnoxiously time intensive. 

 

With the announcement of the GH4 with 4K video I was contemplating selling my 5D and taking the cash to purchase a new GH4 assuming the video surpasses the GH3 and is close to 5D raw.

 

My internal thoughts are as follows for pro/con:

 

5D raw pro:

  1. full-frame

  2. raw quality

  3. lowlight capabilities

 

5D raw con:

  1. extensive workflow that demands intensive computing and time

  2. Komputerbay errors when recording with fear of missing content

 

GH4 pro (unknown obviously to full extent):

  1. simple workflow for high quality 4K

  2. high quality video without massive need for space like raw (assumption)

 

GH4 con (unkown obviously to full extent):

  1. lowlight capabilities still show artifacts and noise like GH3

 

What are your thoughts? The BMPCC would be a great option too but the fact that it doesn't take pictures make it less desirable to someone who would like to create great videos and take excellent stills.

 

I am looking to finance an iMac 27" and research the best configuration and an affordable external storage workflow to correspond with either the ML Raw if I keep my 5D or the replacement camera (GH4 etc)

 

Any and all comments/observations/advice is greatly appreciated in advance!!

[QuickHitRecord]

I also have a 5Diii running ML. I'm not going to buy the GH4 because I don't need 4K, and with my 5D I'm getting a full-frame sensor and a better codec without the added bulk and cost of an external recorder. Plus, I get NIGHTLY firmware updates from Magic Lantern. I just downloaded last night's and it's hard to believe all the bells and whistles that have been added in just the past week.

 

In terms of shooting with raw, I use it for the option of matching white balance between shots and tweaking exposure. Then I export them out to 12-bit ProRes 4444 files, and edit and grade as usual.

 

I don't bother with the KomputerBay cards. To me, the piece of mind that I get from the Lexar 1000x cards is worth the extra cost.

 

If you are really keen on 4K, then maybe the GH4 is the camera for you. But otherwise, the 5Diii delivers some of the best 1080P I've seen, and you already own one!

[odie]

I also have a 5Diii running ML. I'm not going to buy the GH4 because I don't need 4K, and with my 5D I'm getting a full-frame sensor and a better codec without the added bulk and cost of an external recorder. Plus, I get NIGHTLY firmware updates from Magic Lantern. I just downloaded last night's and it's hard to believe all the bells and whistles that have been added in just the past week.

 

In terms of shooting with raw, I use it for the option of matching white balance between shots and tweaking exposure. Then I export them out to 12-bit ProRes 4444 files, and edit and grade as usual.

 

I don't bother with the KomputerBay cards. To me, the piece of mind that I get from the Lexar 1000x cards is worth the extra cost.

 

If you are really keen on 4K, then maybe the GH4 is the camera for you. But otherwise, the 5Diii delivers some of the best 1080P I've seen, and you already own one!

do you think with the 5d3raw you can up the resolution  to 4k…?  

[QuickHitRecord]

do you think with the 5d3raw you can up the resolution  to 4k…?  

 

I haven't tried it, but probably not. But if your main use of 4K is to slightly re-frame your shot and deliver in 1080P, I think that it's fine for that.

 

Also, using the 5D with anamorphic lenses can offer pretty high resolutions. Using the 1600x1200 crop mode with a 2x lens can give you a 3200x1200 image, in raw.

 

I'm not saying that the 5Diii is going to be better for everyone. I think that the GH4 will probably be a really nice camera. But even before production models start rolling out, we already know that it can't match the 5D's 1080P codec. So, if you're mostly interested in really good-looking 1080P, I think that the 5D with Magic Lantern remains a strong contender.

[odie]

I haven't tried it, but probably not. But if your main use of 4K is to slightly re-frame your shot and deliver in 1080P, I think that it's fine for that.

 

Also, using the 5D with anamorphic lenses can offer pretty high resolutions. Using the 1600x1200 crop mode with a 2x lens can give you a 3200x1200 image, in raw.

 

I'm not saying that the 5Diii is going to be better for everyone. I think that the GH4 will probably be a really nice camera. But even before production models start rolling out, we already know that it can't match the 5D's 1080P codec. So, if you're mostly interested in really good-looking 1080P, I think that the 5D with Magic Lantern remains a strong contender.

with faster cf cards will 4k or something like 2.8k be possible too without using crop mode?

thanks

[stephen]

 

@odie

> with faster cf cards will 4k or something like 2.8k be possible too without using crop mode?

No, forget about it.

 

 

@jasonmillard81

Don't rush to sell your 5D Mark III. Wait at least till NAB or even better- till mid-summer. There will be more new DSLR and mirrorless (hybrid) cameras shooting 4K and possibly RAW coming. Sony, Canon and company won't stay still. This will be the year of 4K, so just wait and see what other camera producers have to offer.

 

Meanwhile enjoy your 5D Mark III, shoot learn as much as you like or can. Since 5D Mark III is a top notch photo camera, you'll be able to sell it at any time you want for ~ the same amount of money you bought it. You can shoot RAW video which is among the best right now or h264 compressed one. If you are amateur and video/cinema is your hobby, hack shouldn't bother you.

 

Bought myself a used Canon 5D Mark II. Use it a lot in crop mode, where sensor size is close to BMPCC one and there is no moire or aliasing. So until a better camera comes I can shoot RAW and enjoy all the benefits it offers.  Yes workflow is a little bit slower but hey as far as there are no deadlines and my bread don’t depend on it, it’s not a problem. Image quality for me is the closes possible to film. At this price point it’s just incredible what is available to us.

 

Wouldn't buy any new camera until tests are published and until I see what picture quality is and how it compares to the current RAW cameras - BMCC, Canon 5D Mark III with ML RAW hack.

[Derek Weston]

I haven't tried it, but probably not. But if your main use of 4K is to slightly re-frame your shot and deliver in 1080P, I think that it's fine for that.

 

Also, using the 5D with anamorphic lenses can offer pretty high resolutions. Using the 1600x1200 crop mode with a 2x lens can give you a 3200x1200 image, in raw.

 

I'm not saying that the 5Diii is going to be better for everyone. I think that the GH4 will probably be a really nice camera. But even before production models start rolling out, we already know that it can't match the 5D's 1080P codec. So, if you're mostly interested in really good-looking 1080P, I think that the 5D with Magic Lantern remains a strong contender.

 

What do you mean it can't match the 5D III codec? Everybody considers the gh3(and 4 surely) codec to be superior. (unless you're talking raw, which, of course, doesnt have a codec)

[QuickHitRecord]

What do you mean it can't match the 5D III codec? Everybody considers the gh3(and 4 surely) codec to be superior. (unless you're talking raw, which, of course, doesnt have a codec)

 

I'm talking about raw. Maybe I can't call it a codec. It's more like a lack of a codec. But you know what I mean. 

[Derek Weston]

I'm talking about raw. Maybe I can't it a codec; it's more like a lack of codec. But you know what I mean. 

 

Ah, yeah. That was confusing. Raw is lack of anything.

[Michael Van Ostade]

my honest opinion is that 4K will not be a standard for at least another 5 years. Just think of all those cinema's that had to upgrade to DCP 2.5K not two years ago. They aren't jumping up and down to upgrade their system AGAIN let alone that one screening room they upgraded to 5K HFR Hobbit crap 48FPS that is going to be gathering dust for the next millenium.

 

I'm also on the fence for a new camera, and have just sold my GH2, because it just wasn't my cup of tea. The GH4, or what has been shown so far, has this incredibly plastic video feel. Reminds me of old Red One footage, but with extra THIS IS VIDEO smacked on it.

Resolution isn't everything. Just think about the fact that an Alexa shoots 1080P prores (when not paired with ARRIRAW) and an Epic shoots 5K and it's not that the 5 times more resolution is being noticed in the real world. I've shot with both and although i prefer the RAW workflow of the epic, the overal filmic look of the Alexa is just gorgeous in full 1080P.

I'd say stick with your 5D. Who know what those wizzkids of magic lantern will be doing the coming year. NABB will also be interesting...

Depends also what you're shooting for. I mean, who is surfing the internet with 4K monitors? A 2.5K WHQD screen alone sets you back at least 1000 bucks and that's not what the average consumer will be buying. What about apple retina displays? Who cares? They aren't even 10-bit colorspace.

[Ben Prater]

The 5d3 with RAW isn't setup for serious production. It's a hack, it can be unreliable -- and yes, the video it produces is glorious.

 

The Gh3 and soon-to-be big sister, the Gh4, are production-grade cameras. You take them to a shoot, hit record, know they are getting the shot, take it the edit suite -- drop the video on the timeline, edit, render, upload and get paid by the client. All in a day's work. No muss, no fuss.

 

I own a production company. If I want to spend a weekend making music videos with my friends, I'll grab 5d3 and do RAW. Mmm... I love grading RAW.

 

But during the week, when I have a paying client that needs video crafted for their website or products -- and wants it done yesterday, I need tools that can move video through the production pipeline quickly and efficiently. The GH-series rocks for this.

[Derek Weston]

my honest opinion is that 4K will not be a standard for at least another 5 years. Just think of all those cinema's that had to upgrade to DCP 2.5K not two years ago. They aren't jumping up and down to upgrade their system AGAIN let alone that one screening room they upgraded to 5K HFR Hobbit crap 48FPS that is going to be gathering dust for the next millenium.

 

I'm also on the fence for a new camera, and have just sold my GH2, because it just wasn't my cup of tea. The GH4, or what has been shown so far, has this incredibly plastic video feel. Reminds me of old Red One footage, but with extra THIS IS VIDEO smacked on it.

Resolution isn't everything. Just think about the fact that an Alexa shoots 1080P prores (when not paired with ARRIRAW) and an Epic shoots 5K and it's not that the 5 times more resolution is being noticed in the real world. I've shot with both and although i prefer the RAW workflow of the epic, the overal filmic look of the Alexa is just gorgeous in full 1080P.

I'd say stick with your 5D. Who know what those wizzkids of magic lantern will be doing the coming year. NABB will also be interesting...

Depends also what you're shooting for. I mean, who is surfing the internet with 4K monitors? A 2.5K WHQD screen alone sets you back at least 1000 bucks and that's not what the average consumer will be buying. What about apple retina displays? Who cares? They aren't even 10-bit colorspace.

 

Probably the standard profile used for the GH4, gives it the plasticy look you saw in videos. Most DSLR video looks like that with overly contrasty/colored shots.

[mtheory]

The 5d3 with RAW isn't setup for serious production. It's a hack, it can be unreliable -- and yes, the video it produces is glorious.

 

 

Could say the same for all RED products.

[hmcindie]

 Most DSLR video looks like that with overly contrasty/colored shots.

 

Why single out DSLR's? Have you seen what a cheap camcorder looks like?

[jasonmillard81]

Great info gentleman and interesting debates.

To be clear, as states I'm an amateur enthusiast and the biggest task facing me as a 5D owner is being naive to raw shooting and editing. I do love the FF look and ISO performance in low light.

I will not be a candidate for the 4K "box" add-on as cost would be prohibitive.

Therefore, based in general knowledge of ml raw quality versus what the gh4 seems to be outing out through internal codec what are the pro and con table for that comparison

5d raw vs gh4 stock (no 4k box add-on)???

I'd like to shoot docs and get maybe a 30-60 minute production

[tosvus]

well, how do you feel about the ability to shoot 1080p at 96fps? Some will find that very useful. With speedbooster and the sigma 1.8 zoom a lot of the low light/DOF advantage of the canon may go away, and of course you have a 4K camera. Can't upgrade the canon to that!

[QuickHitRecord]

For documentaries, I'd probably go with the GH4: longer recording times, flip out LCD screen, easier to nail focus, better stability overall, and the GH cameras are just quicker to whip out at a moment's notice -- maybe something to do with the camera's size and weight.

[JHines]

 

I'm also on the fence for a new camera, and have just sold my GH2, because it just wasn't my cup of tea. The GH4, or what has been shown so far, has this incredibly plastic video feel. Reminds me of old Red One footage, but with extra THIS IS VIDEO smacked on it.

 

 

Was the "Light of the Yucatan" piece shot at 30p? It definitely looked video-ish and too smooth. Looked like TV programming. 

[dafreaking]

A lot talk about the speedbooster helping in low light, but doesn't it also make focussing harder?

[montani]

Light of Yucatan was also shot with deep depth of field, which resembles video.