S5 vs A7S III - High ISO

[Andrew Reid]

I am going to do a comparison soon.

Any other suggestions for tests welcome.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/does-dual-native-iso-on-the-panasonic-s5-beat-the-sony-a7s-iii-in-low-light

 

[Oliver Daniel]

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am going to do a comparison soon.

Any other suggestions for tests welcome.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/does-dual-native-iso-on-the-panasonic-s5-beat-the-sony-a7s-iii-in-low-light

 

A7SIII in SLOG3 is clean up to 3200, then cleans up again at 12,800. There’s something dual going on. 

[TomTheDP]

It seems like a lot of sensors that don't list having dual native ISO actually do. XT3 seems cleaner at 3200 than 1600, which would make sense considering it uses a similar sensor to the BMP6K.

[pixelpreaching]

The a7sIII has a second native ISO at 12,800.

[Video Hummus]

Crazy the high ISO performance the latest cameras have. 

I actually like the R5 noise. It’s very subtle and seems to lack that digital color noise. Much more film like but only in 4K HQ. The RAW is noisy of course but cleans up really well with noise reduction from Neat Video (can’t wait to see what they can do with neural engine in M1).

Of course it’s no A7SIII but I don’t need that kind of performance.

[radneuerfinder]

Same sensor as in A7S III:

"the FX6 has a native ISO of 800 (S-Log3) and what Sony are referring to as a High Sensitivity mode of 12,800 ISO.

Sony was quick to point out that even though this High Sensitivity mode works in a similar way to a dual native ISO, they are not calling it a dual native ISO. I asked Sony if the dynamic range is reduced when you are using this High Sensitivity mode and I was told that they feel that is is fairly comparable to the normal base ISO of 800."

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/11/18/sony-fx6-is-this-the-camera-you-have-been-waiting-for/

[92F]

Hello
no dual ISO for the A7SIII ... a lot of wrong interpretation.

Sony A7SIII is Dual ISO ? ... No surely !

https://www.photonstophotos.net/GeneralTopics/Sensors_&_Raw/Sony_A7S_DR-Pix_Read_Noise.htm

[Mark Romero 2]

So when they say Dual ISO (in terms of the Panasonic S-series of cameras), they don't mean same noise level, but they mean same dynamic range as the native ISO???

That would differ from Black Magic sensor....

[92F]

Yes ...In the case of a native dual ISO (Panasonic), the dynamics offered via each of the two native  ISO concerned,  is exactly the same ( "X" stops above the medium gray, "Y" stops below)

On 12/15/2020 at 11:25 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

That would differ from Black Magic sensor....

I d'ont know ...

[Dustin]

On 11/21/2020 at 3:31 PM, TomTheDP said:

It seems like a lot of sensors that don't list having dual native ISO actually do. XT3 seems cleaner at 3200 than 1600, which would make sense considering it uses a similar sensor to the BMP6K.

The high iso performance of my XT3 is worlds ahead of my previous experience. While 3200 and 6400 do add some noise; I find it looks more like film grain, which I don’t mind! Very usable.

[TomTheDP]

On 12/15/2020 at 5:25 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

So when they say Dual ISO (in terms of the Panasonic S-series of cameras), they don't mean same noise level, but they mean same dynamic range as the native ISO???

That would differ from Black Magic sensor....

I think it basically means there is more dynamic range and less noise than there would be on a non dual native ISO. 

The lower base ISO will always be cleaner. Even in the case of the A7S3, I think the reason the 12,800 ISO is so clean is because of heavier noise reduction. The S1H uses less noise reduction so the comparison between 640 and 4000 iso aren't as dramatic. 

[92F]

I think Fuji uses a Sony sensor, so it uses the same technology as that of the Aptina patent acquired by Sony.

It's a dual gain as explained here :  . https://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptina/DR-Pix_WhitePaper.pdf

 

[josdr]

On 12/21/2020 at 3:51 PM, 92F said:

I think Fuji uses a Sony sensor, so it uses the same technology as that of the Aptina patent acquired by Sony.

It's a dual gain as explained here :  . https://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptina/DR-Pix_WhitePaper.pdf

 

You are correct. The x-t3 sensor is Sony derived and that has been the case for models

[Nmccarthy]

Has anybody done more research on this? I’ll be renting the camera out soon and want to see if it’s worth trusting the “dual iso.”

I cant imagine there won’t be weird color artifacts, color shifts, or similar dynamic range if Sony isn’t advertising this.

 

(Also happy new year!)

[independent]

The Sony a7s3 isn't advertised as having a dual native ISO because it doesn't have it. Does anybody have any information that 12800 is a non-amplified ISO? 

The Sony "behaves" like it does because it applies heavy in-camera noise reduction starting at 12800, which makes the footage increasingly cleaner at the cost of losing detail and introducing artifacts such as smearing. This has been depicted in nearly every relevant review of the A7S3.  

This isn't to say that the NR feature is bullshit. It's useful if you have a fast turnaround and your footage is good enough at those high ISOs. 

But you also can't turn it off, which is why the Sony FX6 is the better low light camera. Also clearly demonstrated.

[herein2020]

Dual Native, Dual Gain, x stops over / y stops under.....I just get out and shoot 🙂 and I can tell you I couldn't be happier with the S5's ISO performance at both 640 and 4000. I use 4000ISO all the time because I'm usually in situations where I cannot control the lighting and when color grading in Davinci Resolve, as long as the WFM didn't show clipping it grades perfectly fine to my eyes.  Below is a shot from a fashion show at 4000ISO. The only two things I wish the S5 had was better CAF and 4K120FPS; better ISO performance is not on that list.

 

In fact the S5's VLOG is so easy to work with I don't bother with ETTR or really any other tools other than the WFM. If the WFM shows everything is in range and I'm shooting in 10bit I know I can recover from pretty much anything.

 

[MrSMW]

I need to test this dual gain ISO more as it’s new to me but for anything under 1600 which also includes everything outdoors during daylight hours, 100.

Indoors, anything that is typically 1600 or over, just set the thing at 4000 and be happy.

With f2 or faster primes, should work just fine?

Maybe with anything slower than f4 after dark might be pushing it at ‘just’ 4000?

I remember my first digital ‘pro’ camera maxed at 1600 but was pretty awful at 800 😂 

[herein2020]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

I need to test this dual gain ISO more as it’s new to me but for anything under 1600 which also includes everything outdoors during daylight hours, 100.

Indoors, anything that is typically 1600 or over, just set the thing at 4000 and be happy.

With f2 or faster primes, should work just fine?

Maybe with anything slower than f4 after dark might be pushing it at ‘just’ 4000?

I remember my first digital ‘pro’ camera maxed at 1600 but was pretty awful at 800 😂 

I may be wrong but I believe you don't shoot in VLOG, the dual ISO feature only really kicks in if you shoot VLOG. When shooting VLOG you can't even go below ISO 640 since that is the native ISO in VLOG. I would imagine that the normal ISO rules apply when shooting any other profile (i.e. 100 is better than 200 and so on). Since I only shoot in VLOG I only shoot in ISO640 or ISO4000 and I skip the ISO steps in between. To control exposure I then use ND filters, lighting, and the lens aperture as needed. With my Sigma EF 50mm F1.4 at F1.4 and ISO4000 I can practically shoot in just moonlight.

[MrSMW]

I have been meaning to investigate further just how dual gain works...

Is it only in log then?

Ie, the camera itself will only switch between 640 or 4000 as it sees fit and disregards all other ISO's, or something else?

But yes, I (currently) shoot in the Natural profile though I am considering log after some further future AF and lens testing.

So shooting with a profile, dual gain doesn't apply, ie, the best settings are not necessarily 640 and 4000, but whatever works best?

My rule of thumb is always to shoot with as low an ISO as possible and I use a variable ND all the time outdoors during daylight plus indoors a lot of the time because I tend to shoot mostly wide open with fast glass.

Ultimately for me, it's about finding the best balance of; workflow (log requiring more work), best picture quality (log if graded well without resorting to raw) and highest dynamic range (log I presume?).

Currently quite pleased with what I am getting from the Natural profile, but if I can get a better result without creating a headache for myself re. workload, I'm interested in looking at it further.

[TheBoogieKnight]

12 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I have been meaning to investigate further just how dual gain works...

Is it only in log then?

Ie, the camera itself will only switch between 640 or 4000 as it sees fit and disregards all other ISO's, or something else?

But yes, I (currently) shoot in the Natural profile though I am considering log after some further future AF and lens testing.

So shooting with a profile, dual gain doesn't apply, ie, the best settings are not necessarily 640 and 4000, but whatever works best?

My rule of thumb is always to shoot with as low an ISO as possible and I use a variable ND all the time outdoors during daylight plus indoors a lot of the time because I tend to shoot mostly wide open with fast glass.

Ultimately for me, it's about finding the best balance of; workflow (log requiring more work), best picture quality (log if graded well without resorting to raw) and highest dynamic range (log I presume?).

Currently quite pleased with what I am getting from the Natural profile, but if I can get a better result without creating a headache for myself re. workload, I'm interested in looking at it further.

Dual native gain is in all profiles but has different ISO point. Normal profiles are 100 and 640, HLG 400 and 2,500, Cine D2/V2 200 and 1250 and V-Log 640 and 4,000. On the S1H you can choose which circuit to use but the S1 switches automatically. If I get to the >2,000 range in V-Log I'll usually jump to 4,000.

I've shot in non-log profiles before in low-light but I've read that V-Log is best period (except on the S1 at 50/60p where it's currently only 8-bit).

I've shot with the 24-105 F4 in V-Log in not particularly bright room and been pretty happy with the performance.