Birk Kromann Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 most celebrated is a mighty strong word for very limited anecdotal "evidence", no offense. I agree on lighting, but if you think along the lines of adding a bunch of trained crew for that, those productions would probably rent that arri. I don't see any reason to ever use D800 compared to the Panasonics, blackmagics or hacked 5dmk3 for smaller budget stuff, and most certainly not the D5300 which is what the topic is about.. Do you really want me to post links to all the interviews to convince you it's not just "anecdotal"? Why would you need a trained crew for that? If you have a budget to hire a gaffer and sparks why wouldn't you have money to hire proper lighting - still not my point; A cinematographer working on a budget should be able to operate, light and act as a grip on a budget film and use (and know what) equipment fits the budget and purpose. I respect your opinion that you don't see any reason for using the D800, all I'm saying is, that if DOPs use it, and use it instead of BMC, Canon and Panasonic, surely there must be a reason for it? Another thing that I haven't mentioned is why DOPs use the D800. Have seen a few videos with the D800 and the D4 and the highlight rolloff is (what I would call) incredibly close to that of an Alexa. It's looks very realistic and it holds so much detail in the shadows, which is another reason why it's becoming wildly used in productions. Pussycat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Santucci Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Wow, people are still whining about stills cameras that have added video functions? And an 800 dollar model at that!?!?! What's next? A scathing critique of a Flip UltraHD camera? William Koehler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 15, 2014 Author Administrators Share Posted February 15, 2014 Wow, people are still whining about stills cameras that have added video functions? And an 800 dollar model at that!?!?! What's next? A scathing critique of a Flip UltraHD camera? What do you suggest Chris? If we skip the whole stills camera thing for video... what exactly do you suggest we do... Blackmagic is not for everyone, and the cheapest interchangeable lens video camera with a cinematic image starts at around $6000. Big gap to $799. I believe I alluded to the stupidity of comments like this in the article, so ironic to see one here. Birk Kromann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 15, 2014 Author Administrators Share Posted February 15, 2014 Re Sony / Toshiba. It's likely that Nikon design and specify the sensor, and use a manufacturing plant (fab) to actually mass produce their design of semiconductors. Similarly CMOSIS, with a design office of just 30 engineers, design and specify their own CMOS sensors but actually put the part out for manufacturing to other companies. There are not many companies big enough to own semiconductor fabs. There aren't many of them in the world. What I think has happened between the D5200 and D5300 is that the sensor has the same design but is manufactured at a Sony plant which has slightly more up to date technology than Toshiba, or indeed it is just a rebranding and the factory has changed hands from Toshiba to Sony. I could be wrong and it could have started off as a Toshiba designed and specced sensor, but now Sony have bought the rights and maybe even the fab. It's way too similar to the Toshiba badged sensor in the D5200 to be a new, unrelated, Sony part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 15, 2014 Author Administrators Share Posted February 15, 2014 Loosely related to this topic, Dave Etchells of Imaging Resource had an interview with Yamamoto-san of Nikon. http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/02/14/nikon-qa-head-of-development-sees-interchangeable-lens-slowdown-as-an-aberr Partially rather usual and predictable, but there were a couple of interesting little tidbits in there, too. It's a long-ish interview, and the video talks are in the middle part. They talk about the 5300, the 1 series and a little bit of 4K, too. Interesting article but I wish the line of questioning not give up after 1 or 2 answers and continue on the same thread. I enjoy Imaging Resource mostly, great site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Canon just released a BRAND NEW digital SLR. The Canon T5/1200D. It's the obselete 550D with: -a much lower res. screen (400k) -Smaller viewfinder -Absent Self-cleaning sensor -Weaker/plasticier body with the memory Card slot underneath -Absent microphone input! -Slower Con. shooting. And oh, they'll be selling that for 600$ They basically took an old obselete camera, AND took out significant features, put it on sale for a higher price. Remember when entry-level buyers were comparing the 550D to the Nikon D3100? So Yes, Nikon is two full generations ahead! So at least Nikon IS upgrading their line-up very well. With the D3300 they gave us in this time frame (between 3100&3300) lack of moire/aliasing, huge Dynamic range pump, 1080 at 60p, clean HDMI out, higher resolution screens, headphone jacks, not to mention photographic upgardes, While in the same time frame Canon gave us nothing. Not a single thing. None. Zero. Nikon is the wrong company to rant about at this particular point to be honest. They don't have to give us 4K or otherwise they're crap. It's silly. They in fact created the near-perfect video DSLR with the d5300 putting ergonomics aside. and The D7000/600/800/4 upgrades will be fixing those ergonomic issues very soon. This article should be redone for the Canon t5/1200D. While the d5300 should get a proper review with technical insight and comparisons, you know, like a camera review! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 15, 2014 Author Administrators Share Posted February 15, 2014 If the D3300 does not bite Canon's T5 sales in the ass, then I will give up hope for the camera industry. Quality must win. Otherwise we all lose. Canon should be utterly ashamed of themselves with their latest product releases. An Asia only EOS M2. A DSLR in white and a low end T5 which will go down as perhaps the most uninspiring and unoriginal photographic product ever made. So yes if I was to go right down to the low end with the T5 vs D3300 I would absolutely be singing the praises of Nikon. I recognise that $799 for the D5300 is pretty good. However the camera has to be seen in the context of some of the higher end consumer cameras for video, and that's where I was coming from in the review. Mirrorless mount advantages, 5 axis stabilisation, EVFs, more video features, better optimised live view modes for video, 10bit 4:2:2 ProRes in the case of the Blackmagic, raw in case of 5D Mark III and others, Speed Booster... SO MUCH INNOVATION! And the D5300 has none of it. A big shame. nahua 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolf Silber Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 sorry, wrong argument... ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 15, 2014 Author Administrators Share Posted February 15, 2014 They in fact created the near-perfect video DSLR with the d5300 putting ergonomics aside. That's why it's such a shame, the technology is excellent but the implementation of their technology is completely unsuited to what a large number of their customers want to use it for - VIDEO - and how hard is a proper 16:9 mode for live-view so you can frame the damn screen properly!? No effort whatsoever! I use the Baby Photo thing to knock Nikon over the head with in the review purely to make a point... That with no movie mode on the dial, Nikon shows where their priorities lie... They are with even the smallest stills feature or gimmick over the head of video. Do you know the Nikon J1 at $399 does a 4K raw output in video mode from the sensor, and Nikon haven't made use of it at all? Why are they so allergic to making video cameras? Is it the staff re-training costs or something? Just do it. See if it sells. If it does, build a business division off the back of it and THEN train new staff and reps. If not, don't do another one. Simple! It's just like the early 90's when Nikon had the chance to buy Photoshop. It isn't a camera, so they don't bother. Why such a narrow attitude to the imaging business? Loma Graphics Oy and nahua 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 If the D3300 does not bite Canon's T5 sales in the ass, then I will give up hope for the camera industry. Quality must win. Otherwise we all lose. Canon should be utterly ashamed of themselves with their latest product releases. An Asia only EOS M2. A DSLR in white and a low end T5 which will go down as perhaps the most uninspiring and unoriginal photographic product ever made. So yes if I was to go right down to the low end with the T5 vs D3300 I would absolutely be singing the praises of Nikon. I recognise that $799 for the D5300 is pretty good. However the camera has to be seen in the context of some of the higher end consumer cameras for video, and that's where I was coming from in the review. Mirrorless mount advantages, 5 axis stabilisation, EVFs, more video features, better optimised live view modes for video, 10bit 4:2:2 ProRes in the case of the Blackmagic, raw in case of 5D Mark III and others, Speed Booster... SO MUCH INNOVATION! And the D5300 has none of it. A big shame. I hear you. That's making a lot of sense in fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birk Kromann Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Why are they so allergic to making video cameras? Well, because they are a photographic company with no dedicated film division. You could ask yourself the same with Arri; why are they so allergic to photo cameras? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kadajawi Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 @Birk: Yes, they are not, but it would be an obvious next step. They have everything that's needed for it, they have a big name, and it would help them sell more lenses, more cameras, ... What would Arri have to gain from selling photo cameras? Their sensor isn't exactly meant for that, they aren't that big, and it is a crowded market. A good photographer can pick _any_ DSLR and deliver great results. While I might not be that good, I've done jobs with a 9-10 year old midrange Pentax, and noone said the quality wasn't good enough. I've done a shoot with the cheapest Sony DSLR from a couple of years ago. Again, no one complained (though it was a bit frustrating to use at times). DSLRs are, in terms of stills, so good these days that it doesn't matter which one you pick. The difference is in ergonomics, in build quality, in lens mount. And speed. Low light might be a difference, but not everyone needs to push it to ISO 51200. What's wrong with differentiating, with offering more than the competitors do? And don't tell me it takes such a great effort to create a firmware that can cope with more demanding videographer's needs. The Magic Lantern guys implemented a lot of great stuff without even working at Canon, without having the insights and ressources that Canon has. Anyway it's not just Nikon. Olympus and Pentax are just as guilty of not realizing the full potential of the hardware. And the weirdest thing is that at least Nikon and Pentax have put some effort into their cameras to make them better for video. Also it's a bit of a shame that Andrew ignores Pentax. The K-3 should have much better controls/ergonomics than the D5300, and it might use the same sensor and a very similar processor (though the D5300 seems to have an improved version with 50/60p instead of 50/60i). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelbb Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 The baby mode is very important and you know it. When you have a baby, you buy a DSLR (you don't want to buy some random small cheap camera for something that is only going to happen once). Only for the first baby though. Anyone who has kids will tell you that have 10X more photos of the first born than subsequent children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danyyyel Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Good article, Andrew. There sure seems to be a few annoyed/scared Nikon/Canon people on the forum. You may want to cater a bit more to them, even if *we* know they are wrong ;) haha If you primarily want to take pictures, and some occasional home movies, the D5300 is great, but this is a FILMMAKING website. Hi tosvus it should be the mirroless crowd who should be afraid > As you can see from the latest numbers the sale of Mirrorless is down by 47% while the dslr only by 12%. So if I was you I would be a bit concern because Panasonic has given an ultimatum to all its branches, either you get profitable or we close the section down. I am sure that I will still be able to buy Nikon cameras in 10 to 20 years. By then they perhaps will have but some evf in place of the mirror system, but I am not loosing my full frame d800 quality optical viewfinder for some video geekness. There is a plethora of other ways from back lcd with a loupe and external monitor or evf to use. They, and I completely understand them, are not going to alienate millions of photographers that cater for 95% of their business to put today's inferior evf comparer to optical viewfinder. I feel dumb to write what I wrote above, because I think that Panasonic is doing a fantastic job with the gh line, but it was... For soccer mum ... when people have been doing fantastic job with much lesser Canon cameras the last 7 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiphunt Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 With all due respect to Andrew... why the heck do so many here care what he likes and doesn't like? Everyones got different taste, needs, priorities, and budgets. Mine are specific to my own needs, so what meets someone else's criteria isn't necessarily the same as mine. Is the D5300 a great filmmaking tool with excellent ergonomics and a contender against cameras costing thousands of dollars more? No, of course not. Does it have a sweet low-light sensor that in the right hands can render cinematic results on par with the better filmmaking tools out there costing much more, and deliver stellar stills as well... for $799? You bet it does. I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me... it's now about realizing a good cinematic idea and using the tools I have to the best of my abilities. For me, that's the only hurdle to get over now. :) I'll leave the arguments over sensors, pixels, resolution, dynamic range, etc. to the gear enthusiasts. I've got to go brainstorm an idea and stop wasting time on gear forums. ;) William Koehler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danyyyel Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 This is crazy. Did you read the article? The whole thing was talking about how the D5300 gives a very nice filmic image but is an absolute nightmare to use. I wouldn't recommend the 5300 to a "soccermum" in a million years! It IS a nightmare to shoot video with! It would make much more sense for an amateur to use a Panasonic for home movies - EVF, decent AF, decent onboard audio, focus peaking, small size, great but not pro-level stills. I have a G6 and a 5300 and I know which one I'd give to someone who wasn't a filmmaker to shoot video with. Matt I think that the term nightmare is not appropriate. I don't know why on the internet people always talk to extremes when camera X will blow camera Y because it has 4 megapixel more, 1/2 stop more DR etc etc. Put a loupe on the back screen, add a pistol grip if you need more handling, or add rail system etc etc. You can also add a Ninja and get peaking, false colour/zebras for exposure, visual sound monitoring and a 3.5 jack to monitor with a headphone. I don't have any of these unless you buy a Cannon 5dmark 3 in the canon world. So you have all these solution and when the the $ +300 D7200 will have a weather sealed metal body with a headphone jack and all the buttons so that you have to go very rarely in the menu. So I would not say nightmare in case of the D5300 handling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danyyyel Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I forgot to add that the Ninja is smaller than the nikon sb flash, just so people know how small it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosvus Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I think the previous poster goes by a different definition of soccer mom. Afaik they mostly shoot full auto everything and will get very good results for the money with a d5300. For amateurs, it makes sense adding a few hundred to the budget and go for a bmpcc or gh3. Why work around limitations more than necessary, we have enough frustrations and limitations as is. Matt I think that the term nightmare is not appropriate. I don't know why on the internet people always talk to extremes when camera X will blow camera Y because it has 4 megapixel more, 1/2 stop more DR etc etc. Put a loupe on the back screen, add a pistol grip if you need more handling, or add rail system etc etc. You can also add a Ninja and get peaking, false colour/zebras for exposure, visual sound monitoring and a 3.5 jack to monitor with a headphone. I don't have any of these unless you buy a Cannon 5dmark 3 in the canon world. So you have all these solution and when the the $ +300 D7200 will have a weather sealed metal body with a headphone jack and all the buttons so that you have to go very rarely in the menu. So I would not say nightmare in case of the D5300 handling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosvus Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I didn't mean I don't believe you. I am sure some guys have commented that it's a good camera, but that doesn't mean it is the camera of choice for anyone with good budgets.. Besides, the D800 is more expensive than a gh4, and it has very little to do with the D5300 so this is off topic in my opinion. Do you really want me to post links to all the interviews to convince you it's not just "anecdotal"? Why would you need a trained crew for that? If you have a budget to hire a gaffer and sparks why wouldn't you have money to hire proper lighting - still not my point; A cinematographer working on a budget should be able to operate, light and act as a grip on a budget film and use (and know what) equipment fits the budget and purpose. I respect your opinion that you don't see any reason for using the D800, all I'm saying is, that if DOPs use it, and use it instead of BMC, Canon and Panasonic, surely there must be a reason for it? Another thing that I haven't mentioned is why DOPs use the D800. Have seen a few videos with the D800 and the D4 and the highlight rolloff is (what I would call) incredibly close to that of an Alexa. It's looks very realistic and it holds so much detail in the shadows, which is another reason why it's becoming wildly used in productions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Matt I think that the term nightmare is not appropriate. So I would not say nightmare in case of the D5300 handling. I've been discovering the low-budget filmmaking world for quite a short time. so maybe I've become a bit spoiled by working with the higher-end tools before I recently went freelance, but having used practically every camera in that price bracket, I can say with confidence the Nikon D5300 is indeed an ergonomic nightmare (and every other Nikon for that matter). How bad is it? Let's say that whenever I go out to actually shoot something I pick up the T3i or 5d or the recently bought G6, even though they're inferior cameras! It's just SO frustrating to work with, I can't really put my finger on why, but it truly just is! It gives the best results when you have the time and patience to fiddle though. and again, if it was my only option I would probably get used to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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