Is Panasonic Leaving The Camera Market?

[herein2020]

Currently the focus has been on Nikon to be the next one to exit the camera market, but I've been reading more and more articles about Panasonic actually being in worse shape than Nikon when it comes to their camera division.  One such article is below; and I know it leans heavily on Tony and Chelsea which many have strong opinions about, but regardless I do think the facts in the article are pretty sound. As much as I love my S5 and GH5, I will admit I've been hesitant to go all in on their offerings due to their AF, lens lineup, and this nagging feeling that they might not be around much longer.

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/2021-doom-panasonic-selling-camera-division-nikon-to-shrink-business

Having Panasonic exit the market would be the worst possible scenario in my opinion because they are without a doubt the best cameras for my specific use cases at this point in time.  I would love to get an S1R for photography, a dual battery grip, and some native L mount glass now that my Canon blinders are off (thanks R5 and R6), but something just doesn't seem right to me about their situation.  I keep getting this feeling that in 2 or 3 years Canon and Sony are going to be the only hybrid options to pick from (if you consider the R5 or R6 to be hybrid cameras).

I truly don't get why they haven't changed their AF system, or why they went with a new lens mount or didn't at least provide a native adapter to EF and RF that enabled Continuous AF, no GH6, and not so much as a rumor about HW updates for the S1, S1H, or S1R. I know the S5 just came out and it is fantastic, but there's not so much as a rumor that I can find about their flagships. I have also noticed that the big box retailers in my area have stopped carrying any Panasonic bodies, the only way to even hold one now is to order it or rent it, even Olympus was on the shelves until the end and Nikon still has plenty of display space.

I also haven't seen a single Panasonic being used for photography ever at any of the events I have attended where dozens of photographers are present, and in my area I seem to be the only one not using Sony for video. Last but not least, their website is terrible...their cameras are great, but its clear they put next to nothing into their website or marketing compared to Canon and Sony. 

In my meantime, my 5DIV and EF glass collection still meets every photography need that I have so I guess that's all that really matters, but I am almost ashamed to admit that if my 5DIV died tomorrow I'd probably replace it with an R5 as much as I would prefer the S1R.

 

 

[Parker]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

not so much as a rumor about HW updates for the S1, S1H, or S1R. I know the S5 just came out and it is fantastic, but there's not so much as a rumor that I can find about their flagships.

By "HW" updates are you meaning new, physically different cameras with new hardware? I'm not sure how many people market-wise are buying into the new L-cameras (anecdotally, several work buddies and colleagues just purchased the S5) but I am thrilled about my S1, especially with the recently announced firmware update coming sometime in Q1 of 2021, which means I'll get internal 6k, anamorphic modes and pro res raw via the ninja v. I literally won't need a new camera for years to come. Amazing dynamic range, really good ibis for handheld work, big, bright EVF, very reliable low-light dual-ISO, gorgeous stills, great battery life, and built like a tank. 

A lot of people care about autofocus, but I love my vintage contax zeiss lenses and they're what I prefer to use anyway so it doesn't matter to me. Plus if I really need it I can just pick up a nucleus nano and the fancy new ToF sensor from @BTM_Pix and voila, AF problems solved. 

[MrSMW]

Like Nikon, I don’t think any time soon.

Based on nothing but pure speculation/opinion.

 

[jgharding]

1 hour ago, Parker said:

By "HW" updates are you meaning new, physically different cameras with new hardware? I'm not sure how many people market-wise are buying into the new L-cameras (anecdotally, several work buddies and colleagues just purchased the S5) but I am thrilled about my S1, especially with the recently announced firmware update coming sometime in Q1 of 2021, which means I'll get internal 6k, anamorphic modes and pro res raw via the ninja v. I literally won't need a new camera for years to come. Amazing dynamic range, really good ibis for handheld work, big, bright EVF, very reliable low-light dual-ISO, gorgeous stills, great battery life, and built like a tank. 

A lot of people care about autofocus, but I love my vintage contax zeiss lenses and they're what I prefer to use anyway so it doesn't matter to me. Plus if I really need it I can just pick up a nucleus nano and the fancy new ToF sensor from @BTM_Pix and voila, AF problems solved. 

Yeah I'm using the S1H and Nucleus Nano, the stills are amazing and the high-res photo mode is exceptional for still subjects, Vlog images are beautiful, and though Ninja V RAW is of limited use TBH it's still nice to have 

I think the issue is... how many of us are there? For me this is the best image available outside of Red and Arri, but are there enough of us who want it to keep them making these cameras?

[herein2020]

4 hours ago, Parker said:

By "HW" updates are you meaning new, physically different cameras with new hardware? I'm not sure how many people market-wise are buying into the new L-cameras (anecdotally, several work buddies and colleagues just purchased the S5) but I am thrilled about my S1, especially with the recently announced firmware update coming sometime in Q1 of 2021, which means I'll get internal 6k, anamorphic modes and pro res raw via the ninja v. I literally won't need a new camera for years to come. Amazing dynamic range, really good ibis for handheld work, big, bright EVF, very reliable low-light dual-ISO, gorgeous stills, great battery life, and built like a tank. 

A lot of people care about autofocus, but I love my vintage contax zeiss lenses and they're what I prefer to use anyway so it doesn't matter to me. Plus if I really need it I can just pick up a nucleus nano and the fancy new ToF sensor from @BTM_Pix and voila, AF problems solved. 

I really wanted to like the S1 and even after getting the S5 I went back and looked at the S1 again especially since it has a full HDMI port and will soon be able to do internal 6K, not to mention it can still use the same XLR adapter I am using with the S5, the only things I don't like is the screen is not a full flip / tilt screen, besides the lenses and AF situation, and they charge for the VLOG "upgrade" which is why I never had it in the GH5.  I use the S5 at odd angles and on a gimbal quite often so that tilt flip screen is pretty important to me.

 

2 hours ago, jgharding said:

Yeah I'm using the S1H and Nucleus Nano, the stills are amazing and the high-res photo mode is exceptional for still subjects, Vlog images are beautiful, and though Ninja V RAW is of limited use TBH it's still nice to have 

I think the issue is... how many of us are there? For me this is the best image available outside of Red and Arri, but are there enough of us who want it to keep them making these cameras?

 I truly thought CLOG3 was as good as it gets, but working with VLOG out of the S5 is pretty incredible. The way I can push and pull the 10bit VLOG footage coming out of the S5 I thought was only possible with RAW footage. I always feel like I haven't exposed properly when the WFM says everything is still in range then I drop it into Resolve and a few clicks and it looks perfect.

That's my main concern....how many of us are out there? The cameras are great but if they are losing money on them how much longer will they keep making them? Everyone is predicting Nikon's fall, but it seems to me like Panasonic is the one in more trouble than Nikon.

[PannySVHS]

Once S1H gains momentum at filmschools, it will produce more and more impressive films. Today a friend of mine entered the realm of Varicam colour science and massive cinema image quality with the S1H. I was close to buy one myself, because I was going to sell my S1 due to the paid VLog update and the 10bit 4K60p of the S5. Tell you what, the VLog 10bit puts the S1 way ahead of a C300II image wise, no contest at all! If S5 will continues to sell well, and if Panasonic keeps their model philosophy in logic and neat order, they will grow and give Sony a good run for the money. My friend owns a GH5 and films with Arri at his school. If the S1H convinces him for his project, he is the usual film school image connoiseur, it will be on a whole lot of film school shoots. Film school in Germany means some free tickets for the large German film festivals as Berlinale and others. The S line I think will rock the scene. I hope I can be part of it.:)

[herein2020]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Once S1H gains momentum at filmschools, it will produce more and more impressive films. Today a friend of mine entered the realm of Varicam colour science and massive cinema image quality with the S1H. I was close to buy one myself, because I was going to sell my S1 due to the paid VLog update and the 10bit 4K60p of the S5. Tell you what, the VLog 10bit puts the S1 way ahead of a C300II image wise, no contest at all! If S5 will continues to sell well, and if Panasonic keeps their model philosophy in logic and neat order, they will grow and give Sony a good run for the money. My friend owns a GH5 and films with Arri at his school. If the S1H convinces him for his project, he is the usual film school image connoiseur, it will be on a whole lot of film school shoots. Film school in Germany means some free tickets for the large German film festivals as Berlinale and others. The S line I think will rock the scene. I hope I can be part of it.:)

I just hope its enough, Panasonic as a whole is in better shape than Nikon due to the fact that they make many other things, but if their camera division is losing money its days are numbered, also it can't be good that they have to buy sensors from Sony and they are only available online. You have to really want a Panasonic and know what you are buying in order to get one; maybe its just like that in my area. 

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

In m43 realm, yes, I think that they will release the GH6, maybe a G9 sucessor, and probably will leave - or making just specialized gear like the BGH1. 

In full frame, really don't know.

[TomTheDP]

Yeah the S1 image is absolutely amazing. Sony is at its neck with the A7s3, the downside being it’s a much less capable stills camera. However the Sony is plagued with over bearing noise reduction. That is just a firmware fix away though. The S1 and S5 are much cheaper too. 

[Stab]

I wont be my fault. 

Over the years i bought a gh3 with lenses, gh5, gh5-s, 2x S1 and an S5. Oh and a panny 24-70.

I have always liked panny. Since the moment i saw footage from the gh2, wich was miles ahead the massively more populair canon 5d / 7d.

With the s1 they made such a leap. The iq is great. The buttons feel great to push. The evf is great. And with the future update it will be good for years to come. 

Too bad their AF and their brand building arent as good as the rest. The name Lumix sucks. And it doesnt mean anything to anyone. Photographers havent even heard of it. It seems that only videographers do, since the succes of the gh5. 

But i wouldnt want panny to go out. They always pushed the specs forward, on every release. Always ahead of the competition video wise. 

Panny stay strong. 

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Yeah the S1 image is absolutely amazing. Sony is at its neck with the A7s3, the downside being it’s a much less capable stills camera.

The other downside is the a7Smk3 is a much much more expensive camera than the Panasonic S1/S5/GH5
(yet another downside... is that the a7Smk3 lacks waveform monitoring, or anamorphic support)

[Gianluca]

Yes, but A7S-III have a very much better slowmotion quality with a very much better af system, better rolling shutter and better stabilization using gyro data and fast shutter speed 

[TomTheDP]

3 hours ago, Gianluca said:

Yes, but A7S-III have a very much better slowmotion quality with a very much better af system, better rolling shutter and better stabilization using gyro data and fast shutter speed 

The S1 stabilization doesn't require any external processing though as it quite amazing. It is also a much more capable stills camera. 

But yeah the video specs on the A7s3 are definitely impressive. I just wish they'd give an option to disable the heavy handed noise reduction. 

[Gianluca]

I think that it's mostly user error.... A7S-III have high quality full hd mode, same readout than 4k... In full hd a7s series have better low light performance and a better noise reduction, simply because there's no need to use an high numbers when reduction have the benefit of removing noise... 

In good light there's no problem, when light is gone, shot 1080p 

[TomTheDP]

4 hours ago, Gianluca said:

I think that it's mostly user error.... A7S-III have high quality full hd mode, same readout than 4k... In full hd a7s series have better low light performance and a better noise reduction, simply because there's no need to use an high numbers when reduction have the benefit of removing noise... 

In good light there's no problem, when light is gone, shot 1080p 

I am not sure I understand what you are talking about. The A7s3 uses noise reduction at all ISO's and regardless of the lighting situation. Look at the comparisons between the native footage and prores RAW, even in daylight situations you'll see a difference in the noise. 

Of course for people who don't want much post workflow and want a super clean looking image this could be a good thing. But noise reduction is not something you'll see on a RED or Arri. There is also no reason why Sony shouldn't give us the option to turn it off as you have on their FX6 with the same sensor. 

[Gianluca]

Ok, but you want noise in daylight situation? Add in post.... 

Detail is there, if you want a dirty image is possible. 

 

A7S series is ads as a CLEAN 12 megapixel full frame camera, not a noisy one even in daylight 

[TomTheDP]

5 hours ago, Gianluca said:

Ok, but you want noise in daylight situation? Add in post.... 

Detail is there, if you want a dirty image is possible. 

 

A7S series is ads as a CLEAN 12 megapixel full frame camera, not a noisy one even in daylight 

It’s a camera that uses strong noise reduction. Not something you’ll see with Arri or RED or anything made for Cinema. Of course it works if you want a super clean image. Not very organic looking though.

[Beritar]

51 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

It’s a camera that uses strong noise reduction. Not something you’ll see with Arri or RED or anything made for Cinema. Of course it works if you want a super clean image. Not very organic looking though.

I agree, I had the A7III and noise reduction was very strong. I tried the A7SIII one month ago and even if the image is cleaner, there is still a lot of noise reduction. My S5 and S1 keep more details (although noisier). 

[herein2020]

4 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

It’s a camera that uses strong noise reduction. Not something you’ll see with Arri or RED or anything made for Cinema. Of course it works if you want a super clean image. Not very organic looking though.

I agree too, I'd much rather do my own noise reduction later if needed. With the S5 at 4000 ISO the image is so clean that if I expose properly all I need to do is properly grade the primaries and the noise is gone while the details still remain; an option I would not have with the A7Sxxx

[Video Hummus]

Doesn’t matter what Panasonic does with their image they will always be at the mercy of Sony Semi. produced sensors. Sony imaging will always get first pick of the best sensors.

Look at the landscape today. We have 4 companies using the same 24.2MP FF sensor in all of their cameras.

Panasonic S5/S1/S1H, Leica SL-2, Sony A7III, Nikon Z6ii.

Im sure I missed some too!

Guess what company will get the new 36MP FF sensor first? It will be Sony with the A7IV. And then they will open it up to the rest of them after they sold half a million units.

As long as Panasonic cameras are perceived to have worst AF then their competition they sadly won’t make it. Everybody is 10-bit now with decent to excellent near unlimited ALL-I recording modes.

They have to improve their AF and do other things to set themselves apart and capture people’s attention. Maybe focus entirely on video? They have made almost no in-roads in the photo space with professionals.