Audio field recorders in 2021? My Predictions ("wild guesses").

[IronFilm]

I'll give my personal thoughts on each brand, one by one:

Zaxcom:
The Nova is a very new product, I see almost no chance of a "Nova 2.0" coming out this year. 
Deva 24 is a little older than Nova, but also their highest end product which thus has a longer life cycle, I see it as unlikely there will be a Deva release in 2021. 
Could Zaxcom release a product which is between Nova & Deva 24, or below Nova? I doubt it. 

Sound Devices:
The 8 Series is their latest range, I don't see any chance whatsoever they'll be ending the 8 Series in 2021 and replacing it with something newer. No chance at all. 
Could the 8 Series be added to??? Is there space to squeeze in a product in between an 833/888/Scorpio? Nope, I don't think so. (but then again, I've been surprised before, when the 888 came out in between the 833 & Scorpio)
Could an 8 Series recorder come out below an 833 or above a Scorpio?? Seems unlikely. Scorpio is already their most expensive ever product, and if they released a product below the 833 that might put it too close in price to a MixPre10 underneath it? (but hey, perhaps I might be wrong, and a "Sound Devices 811" will come out? A mini sized 833, with 1x XLR + 3x TA3F all for say just US$2.5K??  I doubt it, but that's an example of how an odd ball product which might come out and surprise us) 

Now as for the MixPre series, all bets are off here, as Sound Devices has been putting out new updates and variants to this at a furious pace in recent years. As while I "guess" they will not bring out any new MixPres in 2021, I'd also not be surprised either if one (or more!) gets announced. 

Sonosax:
Their SX-R4+ has been around for a while, time for an update? But then again,  Sonosax is an extremely small company, and it is to be expected their products will have long life cycles between updates. 

Aaton:
Cantar X3 came out in 2014 (and the Cantar Mini in 2017). You'd think that after 7 years that perhaps an update is coming? But not necessarily, the X3 still seems to be very popular, you never hear of anybody leaving X3 for something "better/newer" and the X3 is still attracting new users to the platform. Plus as a high end premium product (it is after all the most expensive field recorder there is) we can expect that it will have long life for its product cycle. Perhaps next year we might get a hint from Aaton that the "X4" is under development?? Maybe. But I'm not expecting a new field recorder to be released by Aaton this year. 

Nagra:
Nagra Seven came out waaaay back in 2013, surely it is time for an update? Nagra VI is even older from 2008!
But no, won't expect an update to these in 2021. Nagra has more or less abandoned the film market, as they're focused instead now on the high-end audiophile market. Verdict: Nagra is AWOL.

Tascam:
The DR680mk2 & DR701D are now both looking totally outclassed in the budget end of the market once the Zoom F8 came out. 
And the Tascam HS-P82 is from 2009! Was a nice machine, but looooong overdue for an update. 
While I'd like to dream that Tascam will bring out a product in the mid range as an update to the HS-P82, and new low end product which is competitive in the new "Zoom F8 Era", I don't see any sign of life from Tascam that they'll do that. In 2021 I expect Tascam to be AWOL. 

Roland:
Take everything I just said about Tascam, and appeal an extra heavy dose of skepticism and pessimism. 
As nope, I do not at all expect an update from Roland to their R4 Pro or R44. 
Am definitely expecting Roland to be AWOL in 2021. 

Fostex:
Take everything I just said about Roland, and times it by ten. 
Fostex will be AWOL in 2021. 

Zoom:
The Zoom F8n came out in 2018, but that's wasn't a major revolutionary update to the F8 but rather a half step refresh midway through the F8's life cycle. 

The Zoom F6 came out in 2019. 

2020 didn't see anything from Zoom in the F Series (unless you count their mini bodypack recorders as part of their "F Series", which technically they are), thus could we see a new product in 2021? I think perhaps so. As these are products which could see a faster refresh cycle, there won't be an F6n in 2021 (as the F6 is the newest), but more likely a replacement to the F8 series.... a "Zoom F9"?? As the F8 is the oldest, and the F8n was a minor refresh. Personally I'd love to at least see a Zoom F4n, an F4 with a few tweaks (such as pro line level outputs, ditching EXH-6 for inputs 5 & 6 instead using 2x TA3F, further UI tweaks, adding bluetooth, USB keyboard without needing FRC-8, etc). But it seems Zoom believes the F6 is the true replacement for the F4 (which is not true at all!), thus I'm not counting on an "F4n" arriving. But something like a "Zoom F8n Pro / F9 / F10 / etc" seems reasonably likely in 2021

RØDE/Deity/Saramonic/BlackmagicDesign/AJA/"Unknown"/Etc:
This heading is for all of those wild card unknowns from companies which have never before made a field recorder for the film industry.
Such as, could 2021 be the year we see a "Chinese F8" field recorder? A low low priced field recorder like the F8, but from a Chinese brand. I doubt it, but we've already seen a couple of Chinese companies dip the edges of their toe into the water with Saramonic (their Saramonic SR-VRM1 & SR-Q2M) & Deity (with their Deity BP-TRX) making mini recorders, thus is a bigger field recorder next? Again, I doubt it, but this is an example of the kind of "surprise" we might see in 2021. Likewise, Blackmagic Design already makes video recorders (with their range of Blackmagic Video Assist recorders), is an audio recorder next? I doubt it, but who knows. Likewise with that other Australian company: RØDE. What might RØDE have planned? They're an audio focused company, will they surprise us with an audio recorder? And while on the topic of BMD, what about their competitor AJA? They've build video recorders too, might AJA surprise us? I doubt it, who knows though. 
As I bet 2021 will have a surprise from us, most likely from some unknown left field company which I haven't even mentioned yet. But of those that I mentioned, perhaps most likely (or rather "least unlikely" is a better way to describe it) would be Rode or Saramonic in my wild guess of an opinion? But if Rode did this, it would be a product unashamedly aimed at the YouTubers/videographers. And the Saranomic field recorder would be dirt cheap yet surely also be a huge steaming heap of sh*t (but perhaps after a few generations would evolve into a "not terrible" product). 

 

 

Thus in brief summary, I'm not expecting many major field recorder announcements in 2021, aside from "a Zoom F10" plus maaaaaaybe a MixPre and quite likely some kind of left field announcement none of us are even expecting. 

[IronFilm]

Recently posted over on reddit what is the best prosumer wireless on a budget, which is the Sony UWP-D21, and why. Thought I'd reshare it here as well, should others here be interested as well:

---------------------------------------------------------

If someone can't afford pro level wireless (i.e. a receiver such as the Wisycom MCR54 / Lectrosonics DSR4 / Sony DWR-S03D / Sound Devices A20-RX / Shure ADX5D / etc plus the appropriate matching receivers) then going instead with the fourth generation Sony UWP-D is no brainer decision! (although, I'd recommend 2x UWP-D21 over 1x UWP-D27) This choice is so easy it isn't even close, as the 2nd best choice comes a long long way behind Sony.

Sony gives you:

1. True diversity receiver (no other prosumer UHF wireless has this)
2. Has a digital compander (avoiding the issues that say for instance the Sennheisers have with their analogue compander, giving you better quality audio from the Sonys. Essentially, the Sony wireless transmission behave more comparably to how Lectrosonics Digital Hybrids do, using the same mix of digital + analogue for transmission)
3. A slot receiver (again, no other prosumer wireless does this! Although, sadly not unislot, you'd need to get the Sony DWR-S03D instead. Hopefully Sony will bring out a UWP-D receiver one day in the future with unislot compatibility)
4. An option of using the smart shoe on Sony cameras to feed it audio directly, skipping doing another D/A conversion, along with numerous other benefits such as being able to add more audio channels than otherwise or being able to go cableless with the receiver or not needing to do battery changes either for the receiver (these are all features entirely unique to the Sony wireless)
5. Sony UTX-P40 Wireless Plug-On Transmitter supplies phantom power. (the Sennheiser EW100 G4 plug-on transmitter does not)
6. Headphone output (but yet again, the standard Sennheiser G4 doesn't have this)
7. An option for a dual receiver (again, the Sennheiser G4 doesn't have this)
8. An option for getting it in the 941 to 960 MHz frequency range (again, the Sennheiser G4 doesn't have this, Usually only pro wireless offers products in this frequency range)
9. Backwards compatible with all past UWP products.

 

Just a few of these reasons would be enough to make a strongly compelling case to buy the Sony UWP-D21! (especially as Sony is priced similar to or cheaper than the Sennheiser competition) But add them all up together? Sony blows away all the competition.

There are literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of options for lav mics for the Sony wireless just merely listed on the one B&H website alone:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/mini-microphones/ci/3779?filters=fct_compatible-with_744%3Asony%2Cfct_connector-type_745%3A3.5mm-mini-plug|3.5mm-mini-plug-locking 

There are zillions of accessories for the Sony UWP-D system, such as these (would you like for instance a battery pack for your Sony transmitter so that you can run it for over 24 hours? You can do that!!): https://www.hlaudio.de/sony-pro-audio/wireless-zubehoer/

Unfortunately when people hear "Sony" they think of "cameras", not audio. What most people don't realize is that Sony's name itself comes from the latin word for audio: "sonus"! Sony originally started out as purely an audio company, and has been making wireless since the 1950's.

[IronFilm]

On 1/4/2021 at 2:25 PM, IronFilm said:

The Nova is a very new product, I see almost no chance of a "Nova 2.0" coming out this year. 

Well I got this right. The Nova2 didn't come out in 2021! But it did in 2022... which was a surprise to me. 

https://www.jollypostie.com/store/gotham-sound/meet-the-zaxcom-nova-2-and-new-zmt4s-62f2ea42cfd0e

However the Nova2 was a relatively "small" update. (but very handy for those who it does scratch that itch the original Nova wasn't managing to reach)

On 1/4/2021 at 2:25 PM, IronFilm said:

Thus in brief summary, I'm not expecting many major field recorder announcements in 2021, aside from "a Zoom F10" 

Well, I guess I kinda got this right? Sort of. 

The Zoom F8n Pro was formally hinted at in 2021, and officially announced early in 2022. 

But the F8n Pro was also a very small update, not the bigger "F10" update I was hoping for. 

Ah well, but in general my predictions ("not much will happen") for 2021 I got right! 

 

[newfoundmass]

I just got the Tascam X8 for 32 bit float and have been really happy. I know you might not approve since it's lower end, though! 😉 But I'll be selling my Zoom h6 and keeping this.

[IronFilm]

oh yes, I definitely disapprove! 

a) 32bit is mostly marketing hot air and spin to sell to the lowly educated (to be fair, that's true for most people, they're not specialized in location audio. So they're marketing to a very large demographic)

b) nobody should be buying non-timecode capable recorders in 2022 if they're in the film industry

[kye]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

32bit is mostly marketing hot air and spin to sell to the lowly educated (to be fair, that's true for most people, they're not specialized in location audio. So they're marketing to a very large demographic)

One claim for 32-bit was that you could adjust gain so that you had lots of headroom and therefore wouldn't need a safety track in addition to normal level audio - do you think that 32-bit actually achieves this in reality?

I know lots of folks recording video in uncontrolled conditions (e.g. travel or docos) would appreciate a built-in safety track...  for me personally, going straight into my camera is always limited to stereo and that means I have to choose between mono+safety or stereo without a safety, when I'd rather just have both.

[kye]

11 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Well I got this right. The Nova2 didn't come out in 2021! But it did in 2022... which was a surprise to me. 

https://www.jollypostie.com/store/gotham-sound/meet-the-zaxcom-nova-2-and-new-zmt4s-62f2ea42cfd0e

However the Nova2 was a relatively "small" update. (but very handy for those who it does scratch that itch the original Nova wasn't managing to reach)

Well, I guess I kinda got this right? Sort of. 

The Zoom F8n Pro was formally hinted at in 2021, and officially announced early in 2022. 

But the F8n Pro was also a very small update, not the bigger "F10" update I was hoping for. 

Ah well, but in general my predictions ("not much will happen") for 2021 I got right! 

Predicting the future is much harder than people realise.

IIRC most people who predict things get them wrong, but there's a cognitive tendency for people to change their memories of their predictions so they weren't wrong (or weren't as wrong as they actually were).  I've definitely experienced this when I've predicted something and wrote it down, then later on read my predictions and realised they were worse than I had remembered they were.  I hear people regularly predict things and then later on their recollection of their predictions is substantially different to my recollection of their predictions.

Writing down your predictions is quite brave, I think.  Sharing them with the world even more-so! 🙂 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, kye said:

One claim for 32-bit was that you could adjust gain so that you had lots of headroom and therefore wouldn't need a safety track in addition to normal level audio - do you think that 32-bit actually achieves this in reality?

Let's give a camera analogy to help you understand:

Let's pretend you have a camera that can record 16bit raw video files. (such as the Sony PMW-F55) Would you need 20bit raw video files?? 

No, of course not. (heck, even 16bit is overkill for most people! With 10bit being probably the most common bit depth) If someone is regularly messing up their exposure so badly with 16bit files that "it isn't enough", then I think they've got much bigger issues than what bit depth they're recording in!

Likewise, the amount of dynamic range in 24bit audio files is huuuuuuuge, you've got to be quite incompetent to not find that to be enough. (it isn't like back in the bad days of 16bit, when you had to be very careful to have your levels well above the noise floor while still being low enough not to peak, which meant for a fairly narrow window you had to aim for)

Let's have another camera analogy: if you're recording with a camera that only ever outputs 8bit 420, then why on earth would I want to record externally with a 12bit 444 recorder??? 

That's the case with audio, when 100% of the dialogue is being captured wirelessly. 

1 hour ago, kye said:

Writing down your predictions is quite brave, I think.  Sharing them with the world even more-so! 🙂 

Thanks 🙂 Maybe in January I'll make a 2024 prediction! haha

[newfoundmass]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

oh yes, I definitely disapprove! 

a) 32bit is mostly marketing hot air and spin to sell to the lowly educated (to be fair, that's true for most people, they're not specialized in location audio. So they're marketing to a very large demographic)

b) nobody should be buying non-timecode capable recorders in 2022 if they're in the film industry

Thankfully I'm not in the film industry but in the video production industry. 😉

32 bit float has been liberating as a one (or two) person crew. Setting my levels once (I still choose to), and not having to worry if someone (or something) gets too loud is beautiful because I have the range to still pull it down if they clip. It's not perfect, sounds can still be too loud for the mic itself obviously, but I've yet to experience that. I've just experienced lovely audio so far. 

I've never had enough hands to properly mix or adjust audio live the way I wish I could. Before I'd have to set my levels lower to be safe because I wasn't in a position to adjust them on the fly. Now I'm able to record two wireless handheld mics, the soundboard, and a crowd mic all at once with no clipping and without the noise that comes with adding gain in post. 

Everything gets written off as marketing or a gimmick at first. And for a lot of people it is completely unnecessary. But it's a game changer for a lot of people. 

[newfoundmass]

35 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

No, of course not. (heck, even 16bit is overkill for most people! With 10bit being probably the most common bit depth) If someone is regularly messing up their exposure so badly with 16bit files that "it isn't enough", then I think they've got much bigger issues than what bit depth they're recording in!

Likewise, the amount of dynamic range in 24bit audio files is huuuuuuuge, you've got to be quite incompetent to not find that to be enough. (it isn't like back in the bad days of 16bit, when you had to be very careful to have your levels well above the noise floor while still being low enough not to peak, which meant for a fairly narrow window you had to aim for)

Your perspective comes from a much more controlled environment than what the majority of people out there are working on. That's not to say your perspective isn't welcomed, because it is an interesting one even if most of us on this forum will never work at that level, but sometimes I think you forget that.

@kye's question was whether 32 bit float gives you headroom in the event you need it, not whether 24 bit is sufficient when you're on a set with a dedicated sound guy. (The answer is yes, btw. You're only limited by your microphone, as there isn't anything on earth that is loud enough to distort 32 bit audio. As long as the sound isn't too loud for your microphone you're good to go.)

The Tascam X8 (or other low end 32 bit float recorders) won't give someone audio that's better than a professional sound guy with professional gear can achieve. But for low budget projects or hobbyists, where it's not incompetence but the inability to juggle everything at once that necessitates recording on 32 bit, it's a HUGE deal and gives them a fighting chance. And eventually even sound professionals will embrace it once they let go of their pride. 😉

Me? I'm just happy that I don't have to worry about the 300 pound pro-wrestlers clipping the audio when they're yelling and hollering because I'm nowhere near the recorder and even if I was it'd be a nightmare to adjust the sound while also filming something so chaotic and unpredictable. Now I can get the shot AND get good, clean audio. 😊

[BTM_Pix]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

b) nobody should be buying non-timecode capable recorders in 2022 if they're in the film industry

To be fair, the X8 now has wireless timecode capability into the Atomos/UltraSync eco system via its optional Zoom style BLE adapter.

 

 

[kye]

8 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

@kye's question was whether 32 bit float gives you headroom in the event you need it, not whether 24 bit is sufficient when you're on a set with a dedicated sound guy. (The answer is yes, btw. You're only limited by your microphone, as there isn't anything on earth that is loud enough to distort 32 bit audio. As long as the sound isn't too loud for your microphone you're good to go.)

That's what I was asking, but to put it further into perspective for @IronFilm, I was thinking about 32 vs 16-bit audio, not 24-bit, as cameras only do 16-bit!  I know my wallet could afford an external recorder, but the size of my rig definitely can't.

Of course, the question is quite theoretical as the chances that a camera implements 32-bit would have to be pretty darn low I'd say!

[Ty Harper]

Not an audio expert by any stretch but it does feel like there are so many really great but also really affordable options out there. I still use a Zoom F4 and an older Marantz PMD661, but aside from keeping my eyes out for a great price on a used Mixpre-6 II - I think I'm good with what I have until one or all of them break. So @IronFilm I do wonder what that means for the audio recorder market - bcuz it does feel like it might've hit a brick wall?

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, kye said:

That's what I was asking, but to put it further into perspective for @IronFilm, I was thinking about 32 vs 16-bit audio, not 24-bit, as cameras only do 16-bit!

ah well, nobody who is a Sound Recordist has been recording in 16bit this decade or last decade! 

It was only a relatively short period in history when 16bit recording was a thing, during the era of DAT recording? (although, right at the end of the DAT era then a few could do 24bit to DAT tapes)

Even the original Zaxcom Deva could record 24bit. Heck, the Nagra D could do 24bit! (released in 1992! well, 20bit, but later updated to 24bit)

https://www.nagraaudio.com/product/nagra-d-and-dii/

https://www.stereophile.com/hirezplayers/461/index.html

https://www.nagraaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/NAGRA_DII1.pdf

http://www.stardustfilm.com/Articles/Gangs Of New York.htm

 Photos of the Nagra D :

https://www.therookies.co/entries/17133

 

[kye]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

ah well, nobody who is a Sound Recordist has been recording in 16bit this decade or last decade! 

It was only a relatively short period in history when 16bit recording was a thing, during the era of DAT recording? (although, right at the end of the DAT era then a few could do 24bit to DAT tapes)

Even the original Zaxcom Deva could record 24bit. Heck, the Nagra D could do 24bit! (released in 1992! well, 20bit, but later updated to 24bit)

https://www.nagraaudio.com/product/nagra-d-and-dii/

https://www.stereophile.com/hirezplayers/461/index.html

https://www.nagraaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/NAGRA_DII1.pdf

http://www.stardustfilm.com/Articles/Gangs Of New York.htm

 Photos of the Nagra D :

https://www.therookies.co/entries/17133

 

If we put a Nagra and a GH5 into a particle accelerator and smash them together do you think that would work?

I mean, surely 1992 tech could fit inside the 2017 GH5??? 🙂 

[IronFilm]

56 minutes ago, kye said:

If we put a Nagra and a GH5 into a particle accelerator and smash them together do you think that would work?

I mean, surely 1992 tech could fit inside the 2017 GH5??? 🙂 

I can't possibly understand why a person would want to use a Nagra D in late 2022, for anything than purely nostalgic purposes. 

As practically speaking a cheap Zoom F8n would be massively superior to use on a production. 

[kye]

2 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I can't possibly understand why a person would want to use a Nagra D in late 2022, for anything than purely nostalgic purposes. 

As practically speaking a cheap Zoom F8n would be massively superior to use on a production. 

I'd take a 20-bit in-camera audio over a 16-bit one any day...  plus the preamps are still likely to be better than most MILCs!

But "on a production" really is the differentiating factor, considering that my production is me out in the jungle (urban or otherwise) waving about 1.5kg of camera equipment around and generally hoping not to stick out too much 🙂 

[IronFilm]

2 minutes ago, kye said:

I'd take a 20-bit in-camera audio over a 16-bit one any day...  plus the preamps are still likely to be better than most MILCs!

I'd take recording onto a FX30/FX3 directly over using a Nagra D!

Four channels of 24bit audio with the FX30:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1729318-REG/sony_fx30_digital_cinema_camera.html 

2 minutes ago, kye said:

But "on a production" really is the differentiating factor, considering that my production is me out in the jungle (urban or otherwise) waving about 1.5kg of camera equipment around and generally hoping not to stick out too much 🙂 

 

  MixPre6 & Wisycom MCR54 could fit under your jacket without anybody noticing, and there is four channels of lavs being recorded with ease. 

 

13 hours ago, Ty Harper said:

Not an audio expert by any stretch but it does feel like there are so many really great but also really affordable options out there. I still use a Zoom F4 and an older Marantz PMD661, but aside from keeping my eyes out for a great price on a used Mixpre-6 II - I think I'm good with what I have until one or all of them break.

I'd imagine the Marantz PMD661 rarely gets used now you've got the Zoom F4. 

Am not sure if I'd even bother with a MixPre6 if your Zoom F4 is working fine for you. I'd rather aim a step higher and get a Zoom F8n, or a MixPre10. (or if doing this professionally... an 833 / Nova2 / Cantar Mini )

13 hours ago, Ty Harper said:

So @IronFilm I do wonder what that means for the audio recorder market - bcuz it does feel like it might've hit a brick wall?

Couple of points to keep in mind: 

1) the professional market moves at a slower cycle than the consumer orientated market, look at how a new "Sony a7 something" comes out every time we blink, while the Aaton Cantar X3 is 8 years old (well, depending on how you count it... is over 8 years since it got shown off in early 2014, but orders didn't ship until later on in 2014 I believe) and yet the X3 remains today the very best you can get! A bit like ARRI who saw success so long with their original ALEXA sensor, only just recently bringing out the new ARRI 35 sensor. 

2) the Sound Dept moves on even a bit slower cycles than the Camera Dept does 

So yes, that's why even ancient recorders like the Sound Devices 788T can still be relevant today (especially if you're not working on the higher end productions. In which case, it is high time you upgrade to a Cantar! Or at least a Scorpio or 888). 

 

[IronFilm]

On 11/1/2022 at 6:27 PM, newfoundmass said:

Thankfully I'm not in the film industry but in the video production industry. 😉

Tomato - tomato!  🤣

On 11/1/2022 at 6:27 PM, newfoundmass said:

32 bit float has been liberating as a one (or two) person crew. Setting my levels once (I still choose to), and not having to worry if someone (or something) gets too loud is beautiful because I have the range to still pull it down if they clip. It's not perfect, sounds can still be too loud for the mic itself obviously, but I've yet to experience that. I've just experienced lovely audio so far. 

I've never had enough hands to properly mix or adjust audio live the way I wish I could. Before I'd have to set my levels lower to be safe because I wasn't in a position to adjust them on the fly. Now I'm able to record two wireless handheld mics, the soundboard, and a crowd mic all at once with no clipping and without the noise that comes with adding gain in post. 

 

The fact you say "the noise that comes from adding gain in post" makes me suspect it was more the issues with the equipment you used (low end consumer goods with noisy preamps) rather than the file format you used. 

The fact that everything with 32bit (MixPre series / Zoom F6 / etc) today has rather good preamps could lead you into thinking it was the file format which made the biggest difference rather than simply the general upgrade to newer modern semi-pro equipment. 

On 11/1/2022 at 6:27 PM, newfoundmass said:

Everything gets written off as marketing or a gimmick at first. And for a lot of people it is completely unnecessary. But it's a game changer for a lot of people. 

 

23 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Your perspective comes from a much more controlled environment than what the majority of people out there are working on.

I disagree. Just because you're on a scripted drama series doesn't mean you necessarily get proper rehearsals, and neither are you able to go up to the 1st AD and ask "hey can we redo that because I blew up the mix?" (well, you could, but too many of those and you'll be out of a job!)

Plus I work on plenty of documentary or reality tv shoots were there are no retakes and everything is totally uncontrolled surprises at times. 

23 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

That's not to say your perspective isn't welcomed, because it is an interesting one even if most of us on this forum will never work at that level, but sometimes I think you forget that.

I do try to keep that in mind, but I do work on a much more diverse range of productions than you think, not just larger budget productions but also a lot of "zero budget" shoots too. 

23 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

@kye's question was whether 32 bit float gives you headroom in the event you need it, not whether 24 bit is sufficient when you're on a set with a dedicated sound guy. (The answer is yes, btw. You're only limited by your microphone, as there isn't anything on earth that is loud enough to distort 32 bit audio. As long as the sound isn't too loud for your microphone you're good to go.)

24bits of audio has 144dB of dynamic range. When did  you last record anything louder than 144dB? (120dB is already going past the limits of human hearing, at this point it can be painful and doing damage to you. The sound has been weaponised against you!)

Thus my point before, it it like people having their Sony PMW-F55 with 16bit of raw and complaining it can't do 20bit raw instead? Errrr... isn't it already enough? 

I think a lot of desire for 32bit is really a desire for better equipment. Upgrading from an H4n to a Zoom F6 then you get the majority of the benefits from the quieter preamps (and TC/metadata/etc). 

If the original H4n had preamps as quiet as a F6, then people would likely peak their audio a lot less often than they did back then. 

23 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

The Tascam X8 (or other low end 32 bit float recorders) won't give someone audio that's better than a professional sound guy with professional gear can achieve. But for low budget projects or hobbyists, where it's not incompetence but the inability to juggle everything at once that necessitates recording on 32 bit, it's a HUGE deal and gives them a fighting chance.

Should a Sony PMW-F55 owner shoot their interviews in 16bit raw "just in case they get it wrong" because they're "also juggling audio and lighting themselves as well" so as to "give themselves a fighting chance"? 

It just seems to me like serious serious overkill, that's "fixing" problem that really shouldn't exist. If you're paying so little attention to your audio that you've got no idea at where even your very rough general levels are at, I just feel that there could be other serious issues happening as well! 

Just like if a cameraman can't even roughly get their exposure right (thus "needs" 16bit raw), you'd worry also about if they are framing in the subject at all, have they got focus at all, are things in the frame that shouldn't be? etc etc etc 

23 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

And eventually even sound professionals will embrace it once they let go of their pride. 😉

I'll happily record whatever they tell me to record in! And are paying for. 

But just like very very very few Sony F55 owners are ever being told to record in 16bit raw, but instead their bread and butter day to day shoots would likely be in 10bit, so the same is true for me. Will be many more years until the expectation changes from 24bit to 32bit audio files for me to record in. (am even a bit doubtful if this will ever happen in my life time. But "never say never", who knows, maybe in 2055 we'll all be filming even basic interviews in 32K of video resolution)

[IronFilm]

On 11/1/2022 at 6:27 PM, newfoundmass said:

Everything gets written off as marketing or a gimmick at first.

I definitely see people basing their entire purchasing decisions on if something has 32bit or not, even when it is not relevant at all. (even seeing decisions as crazy as choosing a MixPre10 over an 833 because "it doesn't have 32bit")

On 11/1/2022 at 6:27 PM, newfoundmass said:

And for a lot of people it is completely unnecessary.

Exactly, and I want to for balance to emphasis this point which I feel is rarely stated. 

On 11/1/2022 at 6:27 PM, newfoundmass said:

But it's a game changer for a lot of people. 

Sure, for those who completely control the entire workflow from pre-production to post-production, such as those who do it all themselves and never need to work together with how other people do it, then in their circumstances experimenting with 32bit can make a lot more sense. 

Which is your situation.