IronFilm Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 21 hours ago, MrSMW said: Sweden and Denmark speak a different language but mostly understand each other. I’ve watched ‘The Bridge’ 🙂 Swedish is just Danish said with a funny accent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leslie Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 9 hours ago, IronFilm said: Swedish is just Danish said with a funny accent. One could imply the same thing about nz and a certain other country 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
good_1da Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 On 1/7/2021 at 1:59 PM, Andrew Reid said: Tony Blair did a decent job of running all of the country not just London, and Manchester was booming, pretty much. I can't agree with this point. Sure, for investors in Build-to-Let tower blocks in London or Manchester its been a profitable few decades. Indeed Tony Blair and his family have done very well acquiring Buy-to-Lets in Greater Manchester. But the majority of the country booming during the Blair-Brown era, really??? It ended with a massive financial crisis. The fact is, many UK towns have been on there knees for decades...high poverty rates, low life expectancy...cultural wastelands. Watch 'I, Daniel Blake' or a documentary series like 'The Mighty Redcar' to get a truer picture of the Britain that many experience on a daily basis. The closure of the giant SSI Steel plant effected many I know. 3000+ jobs lost because EU state aid rules prevented it from being saved. IMHO EU-city-centric thinking was never going to address the problems and a reboot was necessary. I'm guessing you wanted the status quo. But was that really an option? The EU is ever changing. Integration, fiscal and political ever deepening. EU politicians like Guy Verhofstadt have written essays about total political integration being the final destination. Eventually local parliaments become museums, nation flags packed away, our diverse languages, cultures and traditions homogenised. The very things that make Europe special gone forever. That's the advantage to me of leaving the EU. To avoid the ghost of Christmas future. Bring democracy home. All future decisions taken by the people we elect. Democracy directly accountable and as local as possible. Note, all the Conservative MPs elected in NE in 2019 were local born people. The NE grew tired of Labour parachuting lawyers into safe Labour seats. For me, leaving the EU was just the start in pursuing a fairer less London-city-centric country. Quote The first corona vaccine is German by the way. And, the cheapest and probably most useful to the rest of the World is the Oxford one. Which I assume was developed by people born in the UK, EU and the rest of the world. IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted January 9, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted January 9, 2021 4 hours ago, good_1da said: I can't agree with this point. Sure, for investors in Build-to-Let tower blocks in London or Manchester its been a profitable few decades. Indeed Tony Blair and his family have done very well acquiring Buy-to-Lets in Greater Manchester. But the majority of the country booming during the Blair-Brown era, really??? It ended with a massive financial crisis. You are pinning the blame for capitalism on the wrong people... your answer to this is to elect the Tories? Reflect on that for fucks sake. Again the massive financial crisis had less to do with Labour, more to do with the American sub-prime mortgage crisis, credit crunch, American banks, etc. Exactly the kind of financial deregulation the Tories love so much. Why have you forgotten what the Tories were like under Thatcher all of a sudden? 4 hours ago, good_1da said: The fact is, many UK towns have been on there knees for decades...high poverty rates, low life expectancy...cultural wastelands. Watch 'I, Daniel Blake' or a documentary series like 'The Mighty Redcar' to get a truer picture of the Britain that many experience on a daily basis. The closure of the giant SSI Steel plant effected many I know. 3000+ jobs lost because EU state aid rules prevented it from being saved. IMHO EU-city-centric thinking was never going to address the problems and a reboot was necessary. Again, wrong target. Steel plants closed in the UK due to China. Completely uncompetitive business vs China and other countries with a lot of cheap labour and natural resources. How sustainable is state aid when it comes to a massive dying industrial sector like that... long term... answer is zero. Tax payer ends up bailing out uncompetitive steel companies. YOU would pay for it. 4 hours ago, good_1da said: EU politicians like Guy Verhofstadt have written essays about total political integration being the final destination. Let's see what the current Tory bunch have written shall we about our nation... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/aug/22/britannia-unchained-rise-of-new-tory-right Last Friday, a leaked fragment from a book co-written by Raab and four other Conservative MPs, Britannia Unchained: Global Lessons for Growth and Prosperity: "The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music." COVID? Get back to work... 4 hours ago, good_1da said: That's the advantage to me of leaving the EU. To avoid the ghost of Christmas future. Bring democracy home. All future decisions taken by the people we elect. Democracy directly accountable and as local as possible. Nice idea. The thing is we do elect MEPs in Europe, or did. Farage was one. The EU is not going to go away. Better to be on friendly terms with it than all out war. If you want to take back control within the borders of the UK, you do not leave yourself open to the EU pitching themselves as a block of 27 nations into competition with our businesses and exports. You do not leave yourself open to red tape and customs forms at the borders. You do not leave the club on your doorstep in which we used to have a say, and allow them to take away the freedom of your young people and artists like myself to continue living the lives we've been building abroad. It's a disgrace and based on a complete fallacy. Taking back control has been mis-sold completely. You are not in control. The Tories are! SteveV4D, PannySVHS and BTM_Pix 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
good_1da Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: You are pinning the blame for capitalism on the wrong people... The EU is a capitilist club. it does not exist separate from capitilism. It was originally created in the cold war to revive the pre-war industrial monopolies of France, Germany, and Belgium. And, in that way it continues to be a success. Neoliberalism is hardwired into it. It now has deep intergration with American captilism. You are falling for the con trick, the pretense that the EU is somehow progressive. And, all those MEPs in the European Parliament have no power to affect even minimal changes in the make up and functioning of the EU. 15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: Again, wrong target. Steel plants closed in the UK due to China. Completely uncompetitive business vs China and other countries... The SSI plant was not a dying plant as you say. It had just had 2 billion investment from Thai banks. It was profitable again. Then China dumped a load of steel to take out its competitors which hammered world steel prices. The SSI plant wanted to temporarily close, but keep the furnace running until prices stabilised. Once the furnace is out it would be over. Temporary nationalisation. A few million pounds to save an important strategic UK industry. EU state aid rules wouldn't allow it. Anyway, I remain optimistic for the future. Despite the spanner thrown by the pandemic. I hope the UK will now drive to be more self sufficient in goods and clean energy, and support local suppliers. Endlessly long supply chains are an environmental disaster. Hopefully our desperate attempts to obtain PPE and ventilators have taught us a lesson. And, I believe in 10 years time leaving the EU will be seen in a similar way to not joining the single currency. That, on balance, we made the right decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chxfgb Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 Absolutely superb article Mr Reid. You perfectly hit the nail on the head. I will check the other comments before deciding whether to risk adding my own views as people are very touchy these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveV4D Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 25 minutes ago, good_1da said: I believe in 10 years time leaving the EU will be seen in a similar way to not joining the single currency. That, on balance, we made the right decision. Poor anology. We never been in the single currency to therefore compare whether one was preferable to the other in gain. I think in 10 years time, people will realise that leaving the EU made no real difference at all to their income and lives. The poor will still be poor. The rich will still be rich. Those wasted people will still claim benefits and be angry at the World for it. The high Street will still suffer as the internet rises and takes business more and more online. We will still use poor countries as cheap labour to make our goods and for telephone call centres. Business will fail, jobs will still be lost and freedoms will still be trod on. The only difference will be that many of the older generation who voted to leave will be dead and there will be more of a new generation who will seek the benefits being a part of the EU can bring. You can't rewind the clock back to the glory days of the British Empire. The only real benefit for me personally now that we have left finally is maybe the hope Brexit gets talked about less and less as time goes on. I'm frankly sick of the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chxfgb Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 On 1/6/2021 at 12:14 AM, good_1da said: (Sighing) Here we go again, another article demonising the working classes. People Andrew Reid does not know and has never met, but apparently knows everything about and is quick to stereotype. Same tired old cliches...blah blah, led by donkeys, didn't know what they were voting for, lied to....blah blah blah.... Apparently, Andrew Reid believes working class british people are drones. He's very wrong about that. I 100% disagree and think you are being harsh and disrespectful. People were terribly informed about the pros and cons of Brexit. The average person can't be expected to learn all of this. It should be elected people with excellent minds who make the right decisions for us. The public is too easily manipulated by the media. Even my Mum won't take my word over the news and governments. She has been indoctrinated and 2020 was a big eye opener for how things work in the UK and US and how broken the systems are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
good_1da Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 17 hours ago, Chxfgb said: I 100% disagree and think you are being harsh and disrespectful. People were terribly informed about the pros and cons of Brexit. The average person can't be expected to learn all of this. It should be elected people with excellent minds who make the right decisions for us. The public is too easily manipulated by the media. Even my Mum won't take my word over the news and governments. She has been indoctrinated and 2020 was a big eye opener for how things work in the UK and US and how broken the systems are. You propose a star chamber of 'excellent minds' to make the right decisions on our behalf. To me this such a scary concept. It's the road totalitarianism. At what pont will the 'excellent minds' decide regular people can't be trusted with any decisions? Who would decide what an 'excellent mind' was or is? Who would watch over these superiour beings with their 'excellent minds?' What a chilling, Orwellian, nightmarish, dystopian world that would be. IronFilm and PannySVHS 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted January 10, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted January 10, 2021 1 hour ago, good_1da said: You propose a star chamber of 'excellent minds' to make the right decisions on our behalf. To me this such a scary concept. It's the road totalitarianism. What a chilling, Orwellian, nightmarish, dystopian world that would be. It's precisely what the Tories have created. Their so-called best and brightest Eton boys club with Gove, Cummings, Raab, etc. For me it has to be an informed democracy. And by the way, why throw musicians under the bus? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-visa-free-work-musicians-eu-brexit-b1784600.html?fbclid=IwAR2juJLqLFBwJWAGMZaAj7JMRv96H2OfM5gZi_hlRrVvUWEQ85qpVm44KnQ They are owed an explanation. Behind closed doors all sorts of things have been decided on our behalf. The devil is in the detail. It's not democratic. How many times was it mentioned in the lead up to the referendum that things like these would be part of the rules afterwards. The time to vote in an informed way would be round about now. You have to have an informed democracy, people have to know what they are voting for or against. Simple as that really mate! Chxfgb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
good_1da Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said: It's precisely what the Tories have created. Their so-called best and brightest Eton boys club with Gove, Cummings, Raab, etc. For me it has to be an informed democracy. And by the way, why throw musicians under the bus? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-visa-free-work-musicians-eu-brexit-b1784600.html?fbclid=IwAR2juJLqLFBwJWAGMZaAj7JMRv96H2OfM5gZi_hlRrVvUWEQ85qpVm44KnQ They are owed an explanation. Behind closed doors all sorts of things have been decided on our behalf. The devil is in the detail. It's not democratic. How many times was it mentioned in the lead up to the referendum that things like these would be part of the rules afterwards. The time to vote in an informed way would be round about now. You have to have an informed democracy, people have to know what they are voting for or against. Simple as that really mate! Regarding the visa situation, I agree with you 100%. My understanding is the EU-UK trade agreement that was signed is a fairly slim document. And the fine detail is pretty sparse. I am sure the detail will be revisited many times by our current and future UK governments in partnership with the EU. And, many of the unintended consequences, anolomlies and absurdities that emerge will be fixed. As for our current government, I don't share your pessimistic view that we are on the road totalitarianism. The current Conservative government are kept in check by the fact that they know their majority was leant. This is unique position. If they cannot deliver the levelling up agenda (and by that I mean more investment directed into improverished areas) then they will lose those seats the next time round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Sewell Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 One of Brexit's results will almost certainly be Scottish independence (and who can blame them? They were told in 2014 that voting to stay in the UK would protect their EU rights and Single Market membership - both of which have now been removed from them despite their having decisively voted to remain in the EU). The loss of those Scottish seats, combined with our antiquated first-past-the-post electoral system will make it a lot easier for the Conservatives to remain in power for as long as they keep the South East happy. The north, the midlands - well, it's not as if they're not used to being ignored by central government, is it? At least in the EU those regions had access to billions in regeneration funds - you may well say that those funds were the UK's contributions, re-routed by the EU - but just watch to see how much of that cash gets 're-routed' by the Tories. The fact is that all those who voted to 'take back control' are in for a surprise - the control won't be taken back by them, it's being taken back by those who hated the fact that there was a higher level of regulation that meant they couldn't get a worker's right removed here and an environmental regulation there removed by having a quiet word with a chum in a private club. They'll no longer have any barrier to whatever they wish to do in order to further enrich themselves. The mostly non-working people (look it up - one of the highest correlations with a Leave vote was economic inactivity) who voted to leave have bequeathed those of us who still have to work with a couple of decades of declining rights, incomes and environmental protection, while handing the Rees-Moggs of this world yet another mouthful of gold. At the end of the day, you didn't need to know much about the EU to figure out that Brexit would screw everyone but the rich - you only had to look at the collection of crooks, spivs, chancers and nutjobs who were front-and-centre of the Leave campaign. But sure - it's going to herald a new age of localised democracy and levelling up - Michael and Boris said so, so it must be true. BTM_Pix, SteveV4D and norliss 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted January 11, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted January 11, 2021 20 hours ago, good_1da said: And the fine detail is pretty sparse Still wondering what specific advantages are in it for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Daniel Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: Still wondering what specific advantages are in it for you? I think of these things in the most simple terms, such as, what impact will it have on my life, and what has happened? Simple day to day things like: - Takes longer to queue at the airports. - Can’t use my UK streaming accounts abroad. - Some shipping fees from Europe are more expensive. - EU muscians I work with are now cautious about travelling to the UK due to added costs, hence less income for me! - Cancellation of funding for EU funded projects, back to the drawing board. I’ve personally felt no benefit, and so far I can’t see what benefit there will be for my day to day. Unfortunately, a lot of the more intelligent arguments for leaving seem to be quilted with hardcore patriotism - some type of false ideology built on an imaginary pedestal that died decades ago. I do believe that the swing for the Tories will die out as the younger generation take their place with a refreshed mindset, and Brexit will turn to Brentry and take over all media for what feels like 100 years. Tim Sewell 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
good_1da Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: Still wondering what specific advantages are in it for you? The UK rejected a form of governance I profoundly dislike. That is the fundamental benefit for me. I just believe that government at all levels should be as directly elected as possible. Maintaining the important connection between the people and those who represent them. And, that we must have a chance to unelect our representatives when they don't meet our expectations. IMHO the EU does not meet these criteria. Most obvious example, the EU Commission President and the Commissioners are not directly elected even though they have powers to propose legislation that can be binding in every country. And, there is no direct way to vote them out. In the UK, we already have many types of democratic and directly elected government... UK Parliament (House of Commons, House of Lords) Scottish Parliament National Assembly for Wales Northern Ireland Assembly Combined Authority Majors/Metro Majors Executive Mayors Councillors on Local Councils Police and Crime Commissioners That is a hell of a lot of layers. With endless debating and investigative work of committees to scrutinise decisions. It’s not perfect, but it is about as transparent and representative as it gets. IMO it is quite enough government for any nation. I am not trying to convince Andrew or anyone else of the merits of Leaving the EU or the strategic reasons why people voted Tory in 2019. I am simply pointing out that the negative framing of leavers (e.g led by crooks, or racists harking back to empire) is typical of a long-standing class condescension by the liberal intelligentsia. It is also a convenient way for these liberal elites to avoid addressing real world challenges and the role their interests play in them. e.g UK population growth (expected to reach 71+ million by 2030). IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
good_1da Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said: Unfortunately, a lot of the more intelligent arguments for leaving seem to be quilted with hardcore patriotism - some type of false ideology built on an imaginary pedestal that died decades ago. An example of the negative framing and caricature of leavers I was talking about. An example of the long-standing class condescension of the liberal intelligentsia I was talking about. Perhaps this is why nobody make films or documentaries about the working classes any more. A tradition Britain once had a pound history of. The working classes have now been airbrushed out of existence by elites who prefer to fixate on identity politics instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveV4D Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 I voted Tory last election, not because I voted for Tory, but I was voting against Labour. And speaking to many others, they did exactly the same. Labour and Tory have become so big, its an either/or situation and frankly neither fit for many, but its considered picking another party is but a wasted vote. There are many layers of people you can vote for and yet very little changes depending on whoever clown we vote in, as the beaurcracy that they rely on to get things done never changes. Frankly one more level above our own Government makes little difference when it comes to free will in a democracy such as ours. All I see in leaving the EU is more red tape and delays. I've yet to see how the ordinary person in the street will be better off now we have left, except that feeling that we have left the EU. When things go wrong, and they will, who will you have to blame for it, now the EU can't be used as the obvious fall guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4cl00 Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 All I have to say as a Dutch guy - kudos for posting Two Unlimited 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 8 hours ago, D4cl00 said: All I have to say as a Dutch guy - kudos for posting Two Unlimited 😂 No no, no no no no, there are limits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Sewell Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 14 hours ago, good_1da said: Most obvious example, the EU Commission President and the Commissioners are not directly elected even though they have powers to propose legislation that can be binding in every country. And, there is no direct way to vote them out. The UK Civil Service - analogous to the Commission - has the ability to propose legislation and there is no way to vote them out. This demonstrates the problem - right from the outset - of Brexit discourse. Most of it is rooted in ignorance of how the EU actually works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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