SONY FX3 new camera to be announced

[MrSMW]

I'm going off the idea...

I've sat myself down and had a word, mostly from a financial viewpoint.

Saw a really good YouTube yesterday by Roman Fox, a Fuji user from London and it rang some bells, the summary of which was; stop, write a list of your needs, what you have, what you are looking at, pros/cons/costs etc.

I did just that today and realised that to move to this as the core of a Sony system over a Panny S5 one, I'd be looking at spending at least 5k more.

In these times... nah.

If I do anything beyond 2x S5 bodies, it will be a single S5 body (have) and a used S1H.

[TomTheDP]

1 minute ago, MrSMW said:

I'm going off the idea...

I've sat myself down and had a word, mostly from a financial viewpoint.

Saw a really good YouTube yesterday by Roman Fox, a Fuji user from London and it rang some bells, the summary of which was; stop, write a list of your needs, what you have, what you are looking at, pros/cons/costs etc.

I did just that today and realised that to move to this as the core of a Sony system over a Panny S5 one, I'd be looking at spending at least 5k more.

In these times... nah.

If I do anything beyond 2x S5 bodies, it will be a single S5 body (have) and a used S1H.

Yeah man, its not worth it unless those bodies are gonna generate more cash. I mean you could do a pretty nice vacation with 5k. 

[Llaasseerr]

13 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Thank you for the explanation. That was my previous understanding though less technically minded.

What led to my confusion is dynamic range measurements. The Pocket 6k has considerably more shadow and highlight information than the URSA 4.6k even though the URSA is measured having more dynamic range by CineD and BM themselves. I know because I've tested both cameras and the difference not even debatable. The P6K killed the URSA. 

I've found the highlight recovery tool in Resolve to be very useful unless you are recovering skintones or really critical stuff. 

In regards to the FX3 I am definitely interested if they get rid of the nasty internal processing. 

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I'm not sure how to quantify that it has more shadow and highlight information, but less dynamic range because basically it's the same thing. If you have some comparison frames in BRaw or log, I'd be interested to take a look. I guess it's important to state that there's DR above and below middle grey, and ask what's the camera's emphasis. For example practically every affordable camera is more about stops below middle grey, whereas the Alexa is more about stops above middle grey. But also the noise it produces in the shadows has a nice filmic look, up to a point.

Again, the FX3 raw output should be unmolested but that most likely involves attaching the Ninja V. Yeah, maybe they're adding the FX6 ability to disable NR for internal recording.

[TomTheDP]

26 minutes ago, Llaasseerr said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I'm not sure how to quantify that it has more shadow and highlight information, but less dynamic range because basically it's the same thing. If you have some comparison frames in BRaw or log, I'd be interested to take a look. I guess it's important to state that there's DR above and below middle grey, and ask what's the camera's emphasis. For example practically every affordable camera is more about stops below middle grey, whereas the Alexa is more about stops above middle grey. But also the noise it produces in the shadows has a nice filmic look, up to a point.

Again, the FX3 raw output should be unmolested but that most likely involves attaching the Ninja V. Yeah, maybe they're adding the FX6 ability to disable NR for internal recording.
 

Yes that is why I began to think dynamic range and latitude were entirely different things. Because the testings by CineD didn't seem to translate to reality. The 11.8 stops of dynamic range doesn't add up from what I've seen from the Pocket. Yes the Arri has better dynamic range but the A7S3 or C300 MK3 or even C500, I am not so sure. 

I could upload the tests though I am lazy lol. The URSA just falls apart in the shadows due to fixed noise pattern which renders footage unusable even with neat video. It also clips highlights faster. 

Prores RAW is great though for most work I'd end up just using internal recording which is why its important for me to have that unprocessed image internally. I mean if RAW is not needed an image with NR and sharpening is probably fine but I am a stickler for that kind of thing for no good reason. 


 

[MrSMW]

51 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Yeah man, its not worth it unless those bodies are gonna generate more cash. I mean you could do a pretty nice vacation with 5k. 

More like; paid myself 24k less last year and my business went 9k into debt with a loan.

1/3rd of this year’s bookings have already either postponed or cancelled so as things stand, it’s either going to be a case of 50% as bad as last year, or worst case, 100% as bad.

The ONLY reason I am even looking beyond my S5 (plural once business does get going again) is the reliability of the tracking AF and actually, it’s not enough to get in a pickle about. It does everything else I both want and need it to.

Ah well, c’est la vie. I’m still interested to see exactly what the FX3 turns out to be though it seems pretty much most of it is now known, but financially, not only does it not make sense, it’s not even doable.

Also curious about Sigma’s FP-L announcement, next week I think...

[HockeyFan12]

46 minutes ago, Llaasseerr said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I'm not sure how to quantify that it has more shadow and highlight information, but less dynamic range because basically it's the same thing. If you have some comparison frames in BRaw or log, I'd be interested to take a look. I guess it's important to state that there's DR above and below middle grey, and ask what's the camera's emphasis. For example practically every affordable camera is more about stops below middle grey, whereas the Alexa is more about stops above middle grey. But also the noise it produces in the shadows has a nice filmic look, up to a point.

Again, the FX3 raw output should be unmolested but that most likely involves attaching the Ninja V. Yeah, maybe they're adding the FX6 ability to disable NR for internal recording.

It doesn't much matter, but at 800 ISO the Alexa and P6k have similar over/under.

I think Black Magic recommends rating the camera at 400 ISO, in which case, without highlight recovery enabled, you would get 1.5-2 stops less highlight detail (as you mention), but it's clean enough at 800 ISO and with highlight detail recovery enabled actually surpasses the Alexa in real world use. Black Magic's highlight detail recovery works remarkably well. I've never seen a weird result from it, which is remarkable. But you're right not to rely on it too much, and I also find Cined's Komodo results suspicious because color is missing entirely on the top three highlight stops.

There are plenty of other factors beyond highlight dynamic range, but prosumer cameras are approaching (and in this one very specific case surpassing) the current generation Alexa. The P6k is really good!

[SteveV4D]

15 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

More like; paid myself 24k less last year and my business went 9k into debt with a loan.

You got a loan and S5???  I avoided a loan and only bought a used 24 to 105 ef lens for a cheap price.  My single purchase.  Even now, I won't buy a new camera until Weddings resume.  Its not as if I need it for Professional work, though I had 4 Weddings last Autumn and a few Corporate jobs.  

I know it's tempting to jump into things like this new Sony, but seriously, hold off.  By the time work resumes, there'll be something newer and better.  

I'm not planning my future until its guaranteed.  I expect 2022 will see something of my Business come back and it'll be 2023 when it will approach the normal of 2019.  This year, I shall take what I can and hope its enough.

[Llaasseerr]

33 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Yes that is why I began to think dynamic range and latitude were entirely different things. Because the testings by CineD didn't seem to translate to reality. The 11.8 stops of dynamic range doesn't add up from what I've seen from the Pocket. Yes the Arri has better dynamic range but the A7S3 or C300 MK3 or even C500, I am not so sure. 

I could upload the tests though I am lazy lol. The URSA just falls apart in the shadows due to fixed noise pattern which renders footage unusable even with neat video. It also clips highlights faster. 

Prores RAW is great though for most work I'd end up just using internal recording which is why its important for me to have that unprocessed image internally. I mean if RAW is not needed an image with NR and sharpening is probably fine but I am a stickler for that kind of thing for no good reason. 


 

Yeah, we should not need raw to record a clean signal without NR, etc - agreed. Personally I liked the fact you can record 444 12 bit log ProRes with the early Alexas but it never trickled down to the mirrorless cams.

Needing raw and the external device is a pain, but I'll take it haha. It depends on project requirements. It's just abut manageable at this point. I can afford the extra time to squeeze out more quality. I hope RED's stupid patent dies though.

I hear you on the Ursa. I've never been that convinced. They always seemed to just be fixing sensor issues. with each update. I'l admit I haven't paid that much attention to the Pocket 6K because of rolling shutter and the form factor. The a7sIII/FX6/FX3sensor is probably where it's at for me right now.

 

 

[Llaasseerr]

30 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

It doesn't much matter, but at 800 ISO the Alexa and P6k have similar over/under.

I think Black Magic recommends rating the camera at 400 ISO, in which case, without highlight recovery enabled, you would get 1.5-2 stops less highlight detail (as you mention), but it's clean enough at 800 ISO and with highlight detail recovery enabled actually surpasses the Alexa in real world use. Black Magic's highlight detail recovery works remarkably well. I've never seen a weird result from it, which is remarkable. But you're right not to rely on it too much, and I also find Cined's Komodo results suspicious because color is missing entirely on the top three highlight stops.

There are plenty of other factors beyond highlight dynamic range, but prosumer cameras are approaching (and in this one very specific case surpassing) the current generation Alexa. The P6k is really good!

Thanks, I should download some footage from this cam and take a look. And I definitely like the highlight recovery tool, I've used it on DNG frames back in the day.

What you seem to be suggesting is pushing the DR by +1 stop to protect highlights, ie. push native 400 to 800, which I definitely do with an ND quite often. Noisier, but manageable shadows ("texture"). But then if you were fair and did that with an Alexa, which is totally doable, it would be back to the same margin of difference between the cameras. 

Overall, as I stated I'm most hopeful about the current Sony sensor. Where it beats the P6K is rolling shutter performance, by a fair amount. But it's still about 4x slower than the Alexa.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

You got a loan and S5???

No, I pre-ordered and purchased an S5 at the beginning of Sep because it seemed like Covid was done & dusted last Summer, even if it was too late to save the end of last year’s wedding season.

I traded my XT3’s and various lenses and some other gear and was around 2k up even after my more recent purchases.

I sold off most of my Fuji kit end of 2019 and had 6 commercial jobs booked in for October and needed some play time before in order to get familiar with the new kit and it all made perfect sense late Summer last year. Plus it was also shaping up to be a bumper year for 2021.

Then Covid returned with a vengeance and 6 jobs became 3 and we went back into Lockdown 2.

I decided to take the loan whilst it was on offer to businesses in France as it’s 0%.
I haven’t spent a penny of the loan and don’t intend to unless it’s strictly necessary and have spent less on kit in 2020/21 than I have sold.

We never went into Lockdown 3 here in France and I’m actually doing the 4th of those 6 booked commercial jobs on Friday with the other 2 whenever I feel like it.

One third of this year’s weddings have cancelled or postponed, but there is still around 15 officially still to do this year with closing on that booked in for next.

So hardly been on a spending spree Steve! Quite the opposite and I’m treading a very fine line between having enough kit to do the job and spending as little as I can get away with.

[HockeyFan12]

1 hour ago, Llaasseerr said:

Thanks, I should download some footage from this cam and take a look. And I definitely like the highlight recovery tool, I've used it on DNG frames back in the day.

What you seem to be suggesting is pushing the DR by +1 stop to protect highlights, ie. push native 400 to 800, which I definitely do with an ND quite often. Noisier, but manageable shadows ("texture"). But then if you were fair and did that with an Alexa, which is totally doable, it would be back to the same margin of difference between the cameras. 

Overall, as I stated I'm most hopeful about the current Sony sensor. Where it beats the P6K is rolling shutter performance, by a fair amount. But it's still about 4x slower than the Alexa.

At 800 ISO, the Alexa only has 0.1 stops more shadow detail than P6K, so underexposing the Alexa an additional stop isn't really a fair comparison.

I don't own a P6K, and agree the A7SIII sensor looks much more interesting (not even sure rolling shutter is much worse than Alexa LF Mini), but it's a really impressive camera.

[SteveV4D]

32 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

So hardly been on a spending spree Steve! Quite the opposite and I’m treading a very fine line between having enough kit to do the job and spending as little as I can get away with.

Fair point.  Sorry if I misjudged..

That said, I'm no longer one to complain about spending now.  That new Pocket 6K Pro just announced will be preordered by me once I can.  I'm hopeful some work will come from this year and I've still got savings to pay for it.  I'll take a chance and hope like you did last year that things will play out.  I'll probably pick up some Corporate work once lockdown ends I the UK as I did last September. 

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

Yeah, we should not need raw to record a clean signal without NR, etc - agreed. Personally I liked the fact you can record 444 12 bit log ProRes with the early Alexas but it never trickled down to the mirrorless cams.

Needing raw and the external device is a pain, but I'll take it haha. It depends on project requirements. It's just abut manageable at this point. I can afford the extra time to squeeze out more quality. I hope RED's stupid patent dies though.

I hear you on the Ursa. I've never been that convinced. They always seemed to just be fixing sensor issues. with each update. I'l admit I haven't paid that much attention to the Pocket 6K because of rolling shutter and the form factor. The a7sIII/FX6/FX3sensor is probably where it's at for me right now.

 

 

Yeah an external recorder isn't really too big of a deal. Not much different than using an external monitor. 

 

2 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

Overall, as I stated I'm most hopeful about the current Sony sensor. Where it beats the P6K is rolling shutter performance, by a fair amount. But it's still about 4x slower than the Alexa.

I did a test the other day to see how fast the rolling shutter needs to be so that its not noticeable. I found 7.2ms, which is HD S35 crop on the Panasonic S1 is not noticeable even with whip pans, that's with a 35mm lens. 

So the A7S3 which is like 8ms or something should be quite good. 

12ms which is 4k S35 crop on the Pana S1 was quite good but not quite there. 20ms which is full frame 4k was pretty bad. Thats of course doing pretty aggressive pans which isn't something I do much in the first place. 

[Trankilstef]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I did just that today and realised that to move to this as the core of a Sony system over a Panny S5 one, I'd be looking at spending at least 5k more.

 

All that? Personally the move to Sony from Panasonic didn't cost me anything because I rationalized my immediate needs :  
I sold two bodies (S5 and S1H) and lenses (24-70 S Pro, 20-60, Sigma 45mm) and bought only one for my immediate need (Sony A7sIII) and several lenses (Tamron 28-75, Sony 35mm 1.8 and 85mm 1.8) and I still have money left (I may buy the Tamron 17-28). As a second body I might buy later a Sony a7IV when it comes out mainly for photography and video backup. But that will be dependant of the jobs I'll have in the meantime. 
So far so good I'm more and more happier I have switched. I'm a manual focus guy at heart but the AF on the Sony A7sIII just makes my life so easier when I'm on one man band / small crew jobs !!

[androidlad]

3 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

Thanks, I should download some footage from this cam and take a look. And I definitely like the highlight recovery tool, I've used it on DNG frames back in the day.

What you seem to be suggesting is pushing the DR by +1 stop to protect highlights, ie. push native 400 to 800, which I definitely do with an ND quite often. Noisier, but manageable shadows ("texture"). But then if you were fair and did that with an Alexa, which is totally doable, it would be back to the same margin of difference between the cameras. 

Overall, as I stated I'm most hopeful about the current Sony sensor. Where it beats the P6K is rolling shutter performance, by a fair amount. But it's still about 4x slower than the Alexa.

Alexa's rolling shutter performance isn't that impressive.

Alexa XT: 8ms in 16:9/4:3 2880 sensor mode, 13ms in open gate sensor mode.

Alexa LF:  14ms open gate mode.

Alexa 65: 15.6ms open gate mode.

[TomTheDP]

12 minutes ago, androidlad said:

Alexa's rolling shutter performance isn't that impressive.

Alexa XT: 8ms in 16:9/4:3 2880 sensor mode, 13ms in open gate sensor mode.

Alexa LF:  14ms open gate mode.

Alexa 65: 15.6ms open gate mode.

😬 oof 

[Llaasseerr]

5 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

At 800 ISO, the Alexa only has 0.1 stops more shadow detail than P6K, so underexposing the Alexa an additional stop isn't really a fair comparison.

I don't own a P6K, and agree the A7SIII sensor looks much more interesting (not even sure rolling shutter is much worse than Alexa LF Mini), but it's a really impressive camera.

I'm really talking about underexposing in order to push the highlight detail, that's my agenda though haha. You'll get a stop more highlight detail by pushing a stop. Two stops more by pushing two stops. Shadows will obviously suffer a bit.

I haven't checked if the LF rolling shutter is worse than the original sensor size. But even with the a7sIII sensor being 4x slower, it's still fast enough - sub 10ms for a full frame sensor is quiite nice. I know a lot of people aren't that concerned by rolling shutter, but  I think it's really important. I look forward to when we are all using global shutter with no DR penalty.

 

EDIT: I didn't see the published RS speeds, thanks @androidlad

[Llaasseerr]

Just now, Llaasseerr said:

I'm really talking about underexposing in order to push the highlight detail, that's my agenda though haha. You'll get a stop more highlight detail by pushing a stop. Two stops more by pushing two stops. Shadows will obviously suffer a bit.

I haven't checked if the LF rolling shutter is worse than the original sensor size. But even with the a7sIII sensor being 4x slower, it's still fast enough - sub 10ms for a full frame sensor is quiite nice. I know a lot of people aren't that concerned by rolling shutter, but  I think it's really important. I look forward to when we are all using global shutter with no DR penalty.

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

😬 oof 

Tbh from my experience working with a lot of handheld Alexa footage, the CineD estimate for the XT in I assume 2880 seems more credible (around 3ms). I've worked with a lot of open gate XT footage and it did not look like 13ms either. But I didn't measure it, so ?

The only time I've noticed artifacts is with strobe lights. With the 65, I've seen whip pans def have more of a diagonal though. But still only ~10ms in my estimation.

 

[Llaasseerr]

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

😬 oof 

Tbh from my experience working with a lot of handheld Alexa footage, the CineD estimate for the XT in I assume 2880 seems more credible (around 3ms). I've worked with a lot of open gate XT footage and it did not look like 13ms either. But I didn't measure it, so ?

The only time I've noticed artifacts is with strobe lights. With the 65, I've seen whip pans def have more of a diagonal though. But still only ~10ms in my estimation.

[MrSMW]

8 hours ago, Trankilstef said:

All that?

You had a lot more valuable kit to sell than me moving from Panasonic to Sony!

I currently only have; S5, 20-60, 85, complimentary Sigma 45 and a spare battery...which if sold wouldn’t even buy an FX3 body!

My use case scenario was: pair of FX3’s plus Tamron 28-75 and 70-180 which I reckon would be circa 10k?

What I have is enough for my commercial stuff but not enough for weddings and at min, need another S5 and the 24-105.

If I can stretch to it, I’ll go S1H for that other body though as it has a number of attributes that would work for me over another S5.