SONY FX3 new camera to be announced

[Llaasseerr]

On 5/15/2023 at 1:56 AM, kye said:

Here's an overview of the FX3 version 3.0 firmware and the "gotchas" that lurk behind the new features Sony claim..

Incidentally, this guys YT channel is very high quality, in terms of production design as well as quality of information.  He's a DP-first and tech second kind of guy, so things are all practical and level-headed.  My only criticism is that his uploads are few and sometimes far between, but maybe that's a fundamental problem of expertise - those that have it are elsewhere doing things in the real world instead of just being on YT.

Just watched this. I feel like some of his criticism is unwarranted, but he does make some real points that need to be addressed.

1. Timecode glitches. I'm kind of hoping that if you get the Deity unit and their cable (instead of the Sony cable) that it works properly.

2. DCI 4K being cropped FOV compared to UHD. To me this is a nothing burger since they are both derived from the full width of the 4.2k sensor.

3. 24P is DCI only. This is just how Sony roll. It's the same on the FX6. Technically it's correct, since UHD is 23.98.

4. Ana desqueeze. Agreed the lack of other aspect ratios is weird, but it's not a dealbreaker.

5. No open gate. It would be nice to have if data rates permitted, but open gate recording on full frame does not relate to existing 35mm film ana lenses because they are meant to record a film back that is about the height of the DCI 4k sensor area. If anything, it would be nice if there was a recording mode that cut off the sides so we could record 1.2:1. 

6. No Prores RAW for new features. Right now, I'm expecting Atomos to release an update for 24p. I don't understand why he would say that the ana desqueeze would not work though because it's just a preview on the camera itself. As for DCI, raw already records at the full 4.2k width, so maybe there will be the option to record the DCI aspect at 4.2k.

So besides the unforgiivable lack of shutter angle (wtf Sony) I'm going to let Sony off the hook for now as long as Deity's dedicated FX3 timecode solution works, and as long as Atomos releases a firmware update supporting 24p.

[Llaasseerr]

Any bets on how much of this was shot with the FX3? I also heard the FX6 was used with Atlas Orion anamorphics. Looking forward to confirming details though. Got a feeling all the latest firmware updates were requested by Greig some time ago. 

 

[Llaasseerr]

On the issue of timecode, it seems like people want it to stay synced if you unplug the generator. I mean it should and that would be great, but if you need to keep it connected I can live with that. Those units are small enough.

[Django]

7 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

Any bets on how much of this was shot with the FX3? I also heard the FX6 was used with Atlas Orion anamorphics. Looking forward to confirming details though. Got a feeling all the latest firmware updates were requested by Greig some time ago. 

I know he said a while ago that he was about to shoot the entire thing on the FX3, but I kinda have severe doubts about that, especially after watching the trailer. Like why would you pick an FX3 on something of that budget? Maybe for some complimentary shots to a Venice.. but the whole thing? nah. All those VFX shots would be better suited in 6K on the Venice. He praised the FX3's sensor for its (12800) high ISO so maybe for some of the low-light scenes FX3/FX6. But again the A-cam is surely Venice for all sorts of obvious reasons.

[mercer]

Or an Arri 65

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt11858890/technical/

[Django]

Sony cine cams were definitely used which is why I assumed Venice:

(True Love was the films working title)

[Llaasseerr]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Or an Arri 65

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt11858890/technical/

That makes a lot more sense.

[Llaasseerr]

2 hours ago, Django said:

I know he said a while ago that he was about to shoot the entire thing on the FX3, but I kinda have severe doubts about that, especially after watching the trailer. Like why would you pick an FX3 on something of that budget? Maybe for some complimentary shots to a Venice.. but the whole thing? nah. All those VFX shots would be better suited in 6K on the Venice. He praised the FX3's sensor for its (12800) high ISO so maybe for some of the low-light scenes FX3/FX6. But again the A-cam is surely Venice for all sorts of obvious reasons.

I'm not sure how the whole idea of "higher resolution is good/required for vfx" started, but it's a myth. Practically everything I've worked on has been Alexa plates at 2-3.5k. Particularly for a cg-heavy film like this, it's common to do it at 2k or a bit above, just because it gets way too slow and expensive. I think ironically 4k happens more at the low budget end, and then  of course there's Netflix originals (lol).

It makes a lot more sense if this was primarily shot on Alexa 65, but I do think the FX3/FX6 sensor is very good. It has the same highlight range as the Venice/Venice 2, which is to say it doesn't hold a candle to an Alexa 65 but for the money it's very good. Where the Venice has it beat is that it's cleaner in the shadows, but that's not accounting for the ISO 12800 option with the FX3/6 if you don't mind half a stop less in the highlights. 

[Django]

8 minutes ago, Llaasseerr said:

I'm not sure how the whole idea of "higher resolution is good/required for vfx" started, but it's a myth. Practically everything I've worked on has been Alexa plates at 2-3.5k. Particularly for a cg-heavy film like this, it's common to do it at 2k or a bit above, just because it gets way too slow and expensive. I think ironically 4k happens more at the low budget end, and then  of course there's Netflix originals (lol).

..well to each his own but Greig Fraiser is obviously a fan if not a pioneer of the higher resolution, being the first filmmaker to shoot an entire movie on the Alexa65 in glorious 6.5K for Rogue One and I don't think it gets much more CG-heavy than Star Wars. Here's what he had to say about that:  "The images are sharper and have more resolution, and those things are an advantage, but for me it is about the depth of the image -- there is a three-dimensionality to it. Often the beauty came from the texture; we found that the camera excelled when we were filming something with texture; it really enhanced the quality of picture." https://www.arri.com/news-en/greig-fraser-on-rogue-one-a-star-wars-story-

[Llaasseerr]

6 hours ago, Django said:

..well to each his own but Greig Fraiser is obviously a fan if not a pioneer of the higher resolution, being the first filmmaker to shoot an entire movie on the Alexa65 in glorious 6.5K for Rogue One and I don't think it gets much more CG-heavy than Star Wars. Here's what he had to say about that:  "The images are sharper and have more resolution, and those things are an advantage, but for me it is about the depth of the image -- there is a three-dimensionality to it. Often the beauty came from the texture; we found that the camera excelled when we were filming something with texture; it really enhanced the quality of picture." https://www.arri.com/news-en/greig-fraser-on-rogue-one-a-star-wars-story-

Right, but that's not to do with the vfx. It's to do with the dp's choice for the format and the camera. The extra resolving power gives him more dynamic range in the shadows due to less noise, for example, compared to a single ALEV III sensor. Also it's to do with the joys of shooting a digital version of a 65mm film back and using 65mm lenses.

I just came off a very high profile vfx heavy film shot on the 65 and the pulls were 3.5k. So that extra res is typically not making it to the vfx vendors by the time they start. But the extra IQ is baked in on the downres. And the vendors would have reduced them down further before they start work because the delivery required for DI is below 3.5k. So they will shrink resolution wherever they can in order to get the job done on time.

[Django]

Cool that makes sense but even still if the footage gets reduced below 3.5K for VFX and delivery, as you say its still a downres from high resolution which benefits the IQ. So its not all going to waste..

[kye]

10 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

I'm not sure how the whole idea of "higher resolution is good/required for vfx" started, but it's a myth. Practically everything I've worked on has been Alexa plates at 2-3.5k.

Seems like it's the same reason that everyone else thinks more resolution is better...  We've been shooting moving images for over a century and most of that time it was genuinely below the optimum resolution/sharpness, and now we have achieved it, very few people are smart enough to realise that we've arrived and we need to move on and focus on something else.

Plus, you know, brands do marketing for a reason - it works.... and if your product doesn't fulfil an existing need then job #1 is to create the need.

[Llaasseerr]

2 hours ago, Django said:

Cool that makes sense but even still if the footage gets reduced below 3.5K for VFX and delivery, as you say its still a downres from high resolution which benefits the IQ. So its not all going to waste..

Oh, absolutely. I just want people to know that super hi res footage isn't a requirement for vfx. It's definitely good pixels over more pixels (Steve Yedlin's mantra, I guess). 4k+ is definitely becoming more popular with vfx shots, but I continue to see work in the region of 2k-3.5k on the most cg-heavy projects because otherwise the work is just too expensive unless it's for an IMAX sequence that can budget for it. Netflix is an outlier here.

[Llaasseerr]

47 minutes ago, kye said:

Seems like it's the same reason that everyone else thinks more resolution is better...  We've been shooting moving images for over a century and most of that time it was genuinely below the optimum resolution/sharpness, and now we have achieved it, very few people are smart enough to realise that we've arrived and we need to move on and focus on something else.

Plus, you know, brands do marketing for a reason - it works.... and if your product doesn't fulfil an existing need then job #1 is to create the need.

It's one of the reasons I like Sony's stance on the FX3/FX6/a7sIII etc sensor being "only" 4k. It has about the same pixel pitch as the ALEV III sensor. I hope they do another version of these cameras that unleashes the sensor's rumored dual gain ability, if it really is 8k being binned to 4k.

I would really like to see cameras in the affordable price range focusing on higher dynamic range and reduced rolling shutter or having a global shutter. We still haven't quite seen that breakthrough where we are getting a true 13 stops to match the original Alexa in a camera in the sub-10k market.

[Django]

8 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

Oh, absolutely. I just want people to know that super hi res footage isn't a requirement for vfx. It's definitely good pixels over more pixels (Steve Yedlin's mantra, I guess). 4k+ is definitely becoming more popular with vfx shots, but I continue to see work in the region of 2k-3.5k on the most cg-heavy projects because otherwise the work is just too expensive unless it's for an IMAX sequence that can budget for it. Netflix is an outlier here.

Right, I actually learned this on my level having worked on low-budget commercials where the 3D VFX team were begging for 2K pulls whereas the DP was pushing 6K from the BlackMagic. I was naively hoping 4K could be the middle ground but quickly realised there simply wasn't the budget or time for that. So I have first hand experience with this type of scenario, however I admit I assumed that on high budget Hollywood films things were different but I guess it also depends on budget and deadlines.. I wonder if theatrical releases are also more lenient as US theatres are still mostly using 2K projectors?

Netflix requirements are high but they are partners of Samsung/LG/Sony pushing high resolution TVs which need high resolution content to shine! Its not just one big hustle though and I feel this pushes the industry forward, including ARRI..  I wonder if Disney+ does the same with its original series (they have the most VFX heavy content with Marvel & SWU IPs). Speaking of Fraser, I know he shot The Mandalorian season 1 in ARRIRAW 4.5K on the LF but that's also using mostly VP for the VFX via The Volume so whole other paradigm.

 

9 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

It's one of the reasons I like Sony's stance on the FX3/FX6/a7sIII etc sensor being "only" 4k. It has about the same pixel pitch as the ALEV III sensor. I hope they do another version of these cameras that unleashes the sensor's rumored dual gain ability, if it really is 8k being binned to 4k.

I would really like to see cameras in the affordable price range focusing on higher dynamic range and reduced rolling shutter or having a global shutter. We still haven't quite seen that breakthrough where we are getting a true 13 stops to match the original Alexa in a camera in the sub-10k market.

Its not a rumour, its been absolutely verified in teardown that the A7SIII/FX3/FX6 sensor is a 48MP quad bayer sensor binned down to 12MP. That's how it achieves such class leading read out speeds without being stacked. I didn't know/think about dual gain ability though.

We have seen ALEV inspired dual gain sensors in the C300/C70 DGO sensor as well as GH6 so that is trickling down. And of course RED Komodo has global shutter 6K sensor for very attractive price.

[Llaasseerr]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Right, I actually learned this on my level having worked on low-budget commercials where the 3D VFX team were begging for 2K pulls whereas the DP was pushing 6K from the BlackMagic. I was naively hoping 4K could be the middle ground but quickly realised there simply wasn't the budget or time for that. So I have first hand experience with this type of scenario, however I admit I assumed that on high budget Hollywood films things were different but I guess it also depends on budget and deadlines.. I wonder if theatrical releases are also more lenient as US theatres are still mostly using 2K projectors?

Yeah, that's exactly it, but you'll see that in the big budget shows as well! Eventually it will all be 4k across the board, but right now it's mostly only lower budget projects or the extreme high end meaning like an Imax-shot sequence in a Nolan film. If $100-150m projects are shot on an Alexa 65 and are very vfx heavy, it's still normal to see them being finished at lower than 4k despite the res of the camera original.

2 hours ago, Django said:

Netflix requirements are high but they are partners of Samsung/LG/Sony pushing high resolution TVs which need high resolution content to shine! Its not just one big hustle though and I feel this pushes the industry forward, including ARRI..  I wonder if Disney+ does the same with its original series (they have the most VFX heavy content with Marvel & SWU IPs). Speaking of Fraser, I know he shot The Mandalorian season 1 in ARRIRAW 4.5K on the LF but that's also using mostly VP for the VFX via The Volume so whole other paradigm.

Besides Netflix and their 4k push (and good to point out it's associated with flogging tv's), I am a bit out of the loop with what all the streamers are doing for their spec requirements, but it would make sense for any footage for the Volume being shot as hi-res as possible. Also stuff like VR, that's a good place for 8k+.

Yes the 4k hype has pushed Arri forward with the Alexa 35, which is an astonishing camera. And watching a 4k remaster of an old movie scanned off the neg is amazing.

2 hours ago, Django said:

Its not a rumour, its been absolutely verified in teardown that the A7SIII/FX3/FX6 sensor is a 48MP quad bayer sensor binned down to 12MP. That's how it achieves such class leading read out speeds without being stacked. I didn't know/think about dual gain ability though.

We have seen ALEV inspired dual gain sensors in the C300/C70 DGO sensor as well as GH6 so that is trickling down. And of course RED Komodo has global shutter 6K sensor for very attractive price.

Ah yeah there you go, I shouldn't have said it was a rumor. The dual gain thing I mentioned WAS a rumor though, that sadly hasn't panned out:

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/fx6-features-19ev-wdr-via-v2-x-firmware-and-wdr-license/

Was hoping to see that in the FX6 and in my fever dreams, the FX3. I did a bit of online searching, and there were a bunch of papers published my Sony engineers in Japan that were using this WDR approach, but it hasn't made it into any mainstream camera releases.

I'm always interested to see dual gain approaches in other sensors like Canon and the GH6. What I noticed is Canon have focused more on cleaning up the shadows, while Arri focused on the highlights. I think this is to do with the power requirements of using a DGO approach to capture highlights since the Alexa has a much higher power draw, but also probably a culture difference where Arri's film background made them more focused on capturing filmic highlights. I can imagine that the engineers at Canon are more interested in a lower noise floor.

Another issue with Canon's DGO is slower rolling shutter compared to when it's turned off, so again an area to improve on.

 

[Llaasseerr]

So this is super interesting. The imdb tech specs have been updated and the Alexa 65 is not mentioned any more. It now just mentions the FX3 and states "Negative Format Sony RAW(4.2K)", which is the raw output via the Ninja V.

Obviously I don't know who is in a position to edit these tech specs, but it makes a lot more sense if they did shoot it raw. By "Sony RAW" I assume they mean ProRes Raw since there's no X-OCN on these cameras. Also if they shot true 24p, then I'm guessing they had access to some unreleased firmware from Atomos which I hope becomes available soon.

[ntblowz]

 

[Django]

 

On 5/20/2023 at 8:17 PM, Llaasseerr said:

So this is super interesting. The imdb tech specs have been updated and the Alexa 65 is not mentioned any more. It now just mentions the FX3 and states "Negative Format Sony RAW(4.2K)", which is the raw output via the Ninja V.

 

According to comments on the above video, someone asked a gaffer who said the whole thing was shot on FX3 and Oren Soffer said this on Twitter:

"We can’t share any technical info JUST yet but promise we will spill all the beans when the film comes out! All I will say for now is just a reminder that any rando can edit IMDb and despite our efforts to contain it the info up on there isn’t accurate, so, grain of salt! ;)"

Not sure why all this mystery around what was used but I sense this should make headlines if/when it is officially revealed that the whole thing was shot on the FX3.

[Llaasseerr]

On 5/19/2023 at 5:35 AM, Django said:

Right, I actually learned this on my level having worked on low-budget commercials where the 3D VFX team were begging for 2K pulls whereas the DP was pushing 6K from the BlackMagic. I was naively hoping 4K could be the middle ground but quickly realised there simply wasn't the budget or time for that. So I have first hand experience with this type of scenario, however I admit I assumed that on high budget Hollywood films things were different but I guess it also depends on budget and deadlines.. I wonder if theatrical releases are also more lenient as US theatres are still mostly using 2K projectors?

Netflix requirements are high but they are partners of Samsung/LG/Sony pushing high resolution TVs which need high resolution content to shine! Its not just one big hustle though and I feel this pushes the industry forward, including ARRI..  I wonder if Disney+ does the same with its original series (they have the most VFX heavy content with Marvel & SWU IPs). Speaking of Fraser, I know he shot The Mandalorian season 1 in ARRIRAW 4.5K on the LF but that's also using mostly VP for the VFX via The Volume so whole other paradigm.

 

Continuing this OT on 4K mainly being a Netflix and consumer TV-driven phenomenon vs 2K for theatrical with a lot of VFX, this article gives a pretty accurate breakdown considering it's a non-industry publication:

https://www.vulture.com/2022/07/4k-tv-cgi-review.html

Also it reiterates the point I made that indie films are easier to finish at 4K than bug budget ones.

Back on topic: still waiting for the Ninja V to get a firmware update to support 24P DCI out of the FX3 now it has the firmware update. It's unclear Atomos will support it at all, but here's hoping. It would have to be a 4.2k raw 24p, I guess with a few lines of pixels cropped off the top and bottom to conform to the DCI aspect ratio.