Blackmagic Camera Update Feb 17

[crevice]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It's killed the C70

It’s statements like this that have made me step away form this forum. It seems every forum post is some over dramatic hyperbole reaction or continuous anti canon pitchforks (I wonder why?). How can we have a serious conversation when people like you are saying the pocket 6k destroys the c70? It is the same camera as the pocket 6k - with a tilt screen and 6 stops of ND. That’s all it takes to “kill the C70”, which was being hailed 24 hours ago?  The pocket 6k has BRAW over the c70. The c70 for the 20th time has a better sensor with more DR. The c70 has a better battery. The c70 has significantly better auto focus. The c70 records to dual SD cards. The c70 has a significantly better mount, with a speed booster that turns it into full frame. Wether any of these points mean anything to you or not, is besides the point. Even if you find the pocket 6k better for you because it has BRAW is besides the point. The point is that saying the pocket 6k “kills” the c70 is ridiculous. We live in a time where none of these cameras kill each other. A7s3, pocket 6k, c70, etc. are all amazing tools and in the right hands you’d be hard pressed to find folks that can even tell difference. I’m out. 

[kye]

2 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Handheld is very doable with a lens that has OIS tho. 

That doesn't make the camera a hand-held camera, it makes those lenses handheld lenses.

Name a camera that isn't a handheld camera then.  It's like saying that my dining room table is a cocktail table because it is compatible with cocktail making equipment.  

By that logic my dining table is also a boat table, because:

 

[SteveV4D]

18 minutes ago, kye said:

That doesn't make the camera a hand-held camera, it makes those lenses handheld lenses.

Name a camera that isn't a handheld camera then.  It's like saying that my dining room table is a cocktail table because it is compatible with cocktail making equipment.  

You're so picky.  Why? 

So it doesn't have IBIS.  I'm reviewing footage from 2014 at the moment, shot on a holiday with a GH4.  That footage was shot handheld with a IS lens.  Are you saying the GH4 wasn't a handheld camera?   

Also, with my GH5, I would turn off IBIS for shots with wide angle lenses as I would get wobble in my footage if left on.  Did turning IBIS off also switch off the handheld function?

For the record, I've used the Pocket 4K handheld with non IS lenses on some occasions.  I also use it loads of time with IS lens.  In both cases, I am hand holding the camera.

I've mixed views on IBIS.  Useful, yes.  But I found it made me lazy and also too dependant on it.  There were also weird issues where it would wobble, which was difficult to fix in post.  Don't get me wrong, it's very useful to have and my GH5 sits as a useful bit of kit in my bag for certain run n gun situations.  However, the Pocket is my primary camera for a reason. 

[SteveV4D]

2 hours ago, BenEricson said:

 

Black Magic... any owner who is honest will have a long list of quirks.

An exaggeration surely.  A long list... really.  I have a short list.  Some addressed by this new camera. 

What exactly is this long list you see?  Do tell? 

Yes, some users have had issues.  QC is a BM problem.  But many others have not reported the same issues that others have.  My Pocket 4K has been very reliable for me.  Poor battery life, screen in sunlight and no tilt being my primary concerns. 

I had more issues with some of my Panasonic cameras than the Pocket 4K.  

[leslie]

47 minutes ago, kye said:

 

By that logic my dining table is also a boat table, because:

 

You haven't even rigged it up at all. That's disappointing very disappointing. Not to mention not a life jacket in sight.

[Thpriest]

17 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

An exaggeration surely.  A long list... really.  I have a short list.  Some addressed by this new camera. 

What exactly is this long list you see?  Do tell? 

Yes, some users have had issues.  QC is a BM problem.  But many others have not reported the same issues that others have.  My Pocket 4K has been very reliable for me.  Poor battery life, screen in sunlight and no tilt being my primary concerns. 

I had more issues with some of my Panasonic cameras than the Pocket 4K.  

I have only used a BMPCC4K once and it was a nightmare. It turned itself off, out of nowhere stopped recording normal clips and just recorded 1 second clips. Then it started working again. Random stuff. It was a rental but I know the owner and he said that had never happed before. Scarred me off BM. Really nice image though.

If the BMPCC6K Pro has got rid of those reliability problems it could be very interesting as everything else looks good. Can it do dual recording? I mean, I know it has various ways to record but could I record on SD and Cfast at the same time?

[zerocool22]

They have fixed a lot of problems of the pocket with this one. Allthough I wish it had the following
- Full frame sensor
- IBIS
- Screen that can turn sideways as well, so you can vlog with it(I wont use it for vlogging but I do find it nice for light setups where I use myself as the test subject to see/adjust lights on the fly.)
- CAF for the exact reason above (selfie vlog), Its hard to judge stuff in post when your focus is a bit off, and its hard to focus on yourself without an external screen.

 

 

[SteveV4D]

13 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

 

If the BMPCC6K Pro has got rid of those reliability problems it could be very interesting as everything else looks good. Can it do dual recording? I mean, I know it has various ways to record but could I record on SD and Cfast at the same time?

No it doesn't.  To be honest, I've never used dual recording on my GH5 and GH5s, even though it has it.  So not an issue for me. 

I fo agree that reliability is BM biggest weakness.  However its not consistent and if you're lucky, then like me, you get a great camera. 😁

 

[Anaconda_]

1 hour ago, kye said:

 

I mean... that is a boat. I shoot handheld with my Pocket 4k all the time. Mostly with unstabilised lenses like the Sigma 18-35. It just depends on the look you want.

With the announcement, the thing that got me most excited is the firmware for the other pockets. The new histogram is alright I suppose, but Gen5 colour inside the camera will be great.

I also noticed the new camera shoots more versions of Braw, with Q1 and Q3 being added, so for now I'm assuming that will also come to the other cameras. Making my 2 main hopes a reality.

 

[kye]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

You're so picky.  Why? 

So it doesn't have IBIS.  I'm reviewing footage from 2014 at the moment, shot on a holiday with a GH4.  That footage was shot handheld with a IS lens.  Are you saying the GH4 wasn't a handheld camera?   

Also, with my GH5, I would turn off IBIS for shots with wide angle lenses as I would get wobble in my footage if left on.  Did turning IBIS off also switch off the handheld function?

For the record, I've used the Pocket 4K handheld with non IS lenses on some occasions.  I also use it loads of time with IS lens.  In both cases, I am hand holding the camera.

I've mixed views on IBIS.  Useful, yes.  But I found it made me lazy and also too dependant on it.  There were also weird issues where it would wobble, which was difficult to fix in post.  Don't get me wrong, it's very useful to have and my GH5 sits as a useful bit of kit in my bag for certain run n gun situations.  However, the Pocket is my primary camera for a reason. 

I'm picky because it's just misleading.  People went completely bananas when the P4K was released about it not fitting in a pocket, also because that was misleading.

I think that over time words get used, then misused, then appropriated, and then they become meaningless and just confuse people.  Think about the word 'cinematic'.  Once upon a time it used to mean something, but now, any time there is a conversation about film, someone who thinks the word cinematic means something will use it, and the people who know it doesn't mean anything then talk about the word, then the whole conversation goes sideways and the only thing that people learn is that conversations on the internet are frustrating and go no-where.

In terms of this being a "handheld" camera, sure.  According to what criteria?  We used to talk about cameras that were particularly good at stabilisation, but now apparently the criteria is to be light enough to hold, and accepts OIS lenses.  Great, so now the phrase "handheld" means every camera under 3kg made in the last decade.  

The next time that someone who shoots handheld in extreme situations where great performance is really required asks a question they will get met with a sea of numptys who think that handheld means basically any camera on earth, and if the person shoots in a situation where an the P6KPro wouldn't cut it and a camera with excellent IBIS / OIS integration is genuinely required then they are going to have to wade through the people who don't understand that OIS doesn't truly distinguish a camera.

Effectively it just creates noise and more hassle to have real conversations about things.

The way that I would summarise a camera like this would be "you CAN use it for handheld work, but I wouldn't call it a handheld camera" and this kind of statement represents some nuance and context.  Unfortunately when the manufacturer themselves calls it such, it's just one more thing getting in the way and not being helpful.

I'm happy to drop the subject and not hijack the thread, but it's kind of equivalent to Apple calling the latest iPhone a 'cinema' camera and then forums like this being full of random Apple fanboys who fill up every thread discussing cinema cameras arguing with people about why the iPhone should be on their shortlists, because "it's a cinema camera too"!

[SteveV4D]

14 minutes ago, kye said:

I'm picky because it's just misleading.  People went completely bananas when the P4K was released about it not fitting in a pocket, also because that was misleading.

I think that over time words get used, then misused, then appropriated, and then they become meaningless and just confuse people.  Think about the word 'cinematic'.  Once upon a time it used to mean something, but now, any time there is a conversation about film, someone who thinks the word cinematic means something will use it, and the people who know it doesn't mean anything then talk about the word, then the whole conversation goes sideways and the only thing that people learn is that conversations on the internet are frustrating and go no-where.

In terms of this being a "handheld" camera, sure.  According to what criteria?  We used to talk about cameras that were particularly good at stabilisation, but now apparently the criteria is to be light enough to hold, and accepts OIS lenses.  Great, so now the phrase "handheld" means every camera under 3kg made in the last decade.  

The next time that someone who shoots handheld in extreme situations where great performance is really required asks a question they will get met with a sea of numptys who think that handheld means basically any camera on earth, and if the person shoots in a situation where an the P6KPro wouldn't cut it and a camera with excellent IBIS / OIS integration is genuinely required then they are going to have to wade through the people who don't understand that OIS doesn't truly distinguish a camera.

Effectively it just creates noise and more hassle to have real conversations about things.

The way that I would summarise a camera like this would be "you CAN use it for handheld work, but I wouldn't call it a handheld camera" and this kind of statement represents some nuance and context.  Unfortunately when the manufacturer themselves calls it such, it's just one more thing getting in the way and not being helpful.

I'm happy to drop the subject and not hijack the thread, but it's kind of equivalent to Apple calling the latest iPhone a 'cinema' camera and then forums like this being full of random Apple fanboys who fill up every thread discussing cinema cameras arguing with people about why the iPhone should be on their shortlists, because "it's a cinema camera too"!

Wow, I think you're over thinking and worrying over this kind of thing.  Sure the Pocket was an issue for some with no sense of humour.  I find it funny and like the name, despite the fact its not something you'd put in a pocket.  They could of called it Mini, which would have been a better fit.  Or do what Canon did and just give it a number.  Marketing is full of stuff like this.  As long as you're not an idiot and believe it literally, there's no problem.  It's just a name.  Internet makes more fuss of things than it's worth.  I could call my camera 'Bernard 4K' and it makes no difference to its functionality. 🤣🤣

As for handheld, again, I viewed my GH2, GH3 and GH4 as handheld.  In fact, if Panasonic had marketed these cameras back in the day as such, you would not object to the description surely and agree its a useful distinction between those larger cameras you mount on a shoulder to one that you can work in your hands.  Given I do a lot of handheld work with my Pocket 4K, why isn't it a handheld camera.  Is a GH5s not a handheld camera whilst the GH5 is?  

[SteveV4D]

59 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

I mean... that is a boat. I shoot handheld with my Pocket 4k all the time. Mostly with unstabilised lenses like the Sigma 18-35. It just depends on the look you want.

With the announcement, the thing that got me most excited is the firmware for the other pockets. The new histogram is alright I suppose, but Gen5 colour inside the camera will be great.

I also noticed the new camera shoots more versions of Braw, with Q1 and Q3 being added, so for now I'm assuming that will also come to the other cameras. Making my 2 main hopes a reality.

 

Yes the camera update for the Pocket 4K is welcome and overdue.  I've used a bit of Gen 5 via Davinci RAW controls and like it.  However it is hard to apply to all files easily without applying other settings as well.  It will also help matching with my P6K Pro when I get it.   

It's a good announcement and one more relevant to me than last year's.  All I need is the work to resume and I'll be very happy.  

[mrtreve]

I think the new features are nice. It's easy to nitpick on certain things but you have to remember how cheap it is.

The addition of better battery, screen and EVF show you that they really want people to start using these without extra rigging. I wonder how successful this will be. I suspect a lot of people over-rig the camera for fun as much as they do to to overcome practical problems.

The gradual bloating of this line shows that perhaps the design needs a rethink at some point. It was quite far from being a pocket camera with the 4K model and it's only gotten larger.

Perhaps if the cost of the 12K sensor comes down they could make an Ursa Micro with more of a square form factor (Mavo Edge?). They already make standalone monitors, so could easily break this away from the camera body and allow for repositioning for shoulder mount/gimbal/self-shooting. The shape of the camera is then totally up for grabs once they don't need to house the large monitor.

I went with the C70 for my compact camera. So far I think the image is better than the Pocket 6K. I had to recover some underexposed P6K footage (somebody else shot) and even in braw the shadow recovery is poor compared to the C70. When it's correctly exposed it's quite nice.

Pocket 6K is very accessible though and give you access to some great codecs at a low cost. If you're doing multicam stuff, you can almost get 3 P6K Pros for the cost of an FX6. So it's a bit of a bargain there.

[pixelpreaching]

2 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

They have fixed a lot of problems of the pocket with this one. Allthough I wish it had the following
- Full frame sensor
- IBIS
- Screen that can turn sideways as well, so you can vlog with it(I wont use it for vlogging but I do find it nice for light setups where I use myself as the test subject to see/adjust lights on the fly.)
- CAF for the exact reason above (selfie vlog), Its hard to judge stuff in post when your focus is a bit off, and its hard to focus on yourself without an external screen.

 

 

Why is everything about vlogging? Who is buying a $2500 cinema camera for vlogging? There's literally dozens of other cameras that are better suited to that and cost significantly less. Who needs a full frame sensor for vlogging? A Panasonic G9 or Olympus E-M1 series, or E-M5 series, or Fuii X-T4/S-10, etc etc etc... are all right there and much better options.

Flip out screens can interfere with cables and ports, unless you do what Panasonic did with the S1H, which is nice, but significantly increases the thickness. The a7sIII has issues with using the flip out screen while having HDMI or other cables attached.

I'd rather have internal ND filters than IBIS. Does ANY camera have both?

I'm just bewildered by why so many people want features in a cinema camera that aren't really beneficial to making cinema... CAF, vlogging features, IBIS, it's like everyone wants every camera to be exactly the same, even at the expense of cost, usability, or personal preferences. Like everything you mentioned is in the a7sIII, Panasonic S1H & S5, Canon R5 & R6, and a ton of other cameras if you strike the FF sensor.

[pixelpreaching]

10 minutes ago, mrtreve said:

I went with the C70 for my compact camera. So far I think the image is better than the Pocket 6K. I had to recover some underexposed P6K footage (somebody else shot) and even in braw the shadow recovery is poor compared to the C70. When it's correctly exposed it's quite nice.

The Pocket 6K does very well with overexposure (similar to Arri) vs. the C70 (and other Canons, like the C300 Mark III, C500 Mark II, and the RED Komodo) which handle underexposure better. I prefer the P6K/Arri approach but that's all it is, preference.

[kye]

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

Wow, I think you're over thinking and worrying over this kind of thing.  Sure the Pocket was an issue for some with no sense of humour.  I find it funny and like the name, despite the fact its not something you'd put in a pocket.  They could of called it Mini, which would have been a better fit.  Or do what Canon did and just give it a number.  Marketing is full of stuff like this.  As long as you're not an idiot and believe it literally, there's no problem.  It's just a name.  Internet makes more fuss of things than it's worth.  I could call my camera 'Bernard 4K' and it makes no difference to its functionality. 🤣🤣

Commenting on the highlighted sections...

It's not about being an idiot - it's about asking questions about things that you don't understand.  You and I can tell that this isn't a handheld camera in the sense that it is specialised for the task, but people who don't know this will get distracted and confused by it, and a conversation between people who know it and people who don't will just be confusing as they won't be able to tell who is right and who isn't.

Another way to say this is that it's not a problem if you already understand the topic.  That's great, if all you do is talk to people about things you already understand.

I'm different.  I spend a good amount of my time trying to learn things, things where I am the idiot who doesn't know things.  I've tried on dozens of occasions to ask questions and had the threads completely derailed because of confusion about words and phrases and people with differing skill levels not effectively communicating with each other.

It's not a theoretical phenomena, it's even cost me money.  I've bought expensive books or pieces of equipment because somewhere in some confusing as hell thread on it those things got mentioned.  I get them and they don't help.  Later, after I have struggled through learning this stuff the hard way (have a look at how many tests and stuff I do myself - I do this partly because it's not possible to get clear answers about this stuff online) I have revisited the confusing conversations to re-read them and now I can see who knew what they were talking about and who didn't.  

Unfortunately I spent the money and the time and the confusion while I was being an idiot, thinking that these things might help me, which is what you have to be to learn something new.

Saying that terminology doesn't matter because only idiots can't tell, is basically saying you don't care about learning and anyone who dares to read about new material is an idiot.

Well, I'm an idiot, but the real idiots are the people who don't ever try to learn something new.

[SteveV4D]

3 minutes ago, kye said:

Commenting on the highlighted sections...

It's not about being an idiot - it's about asking questions about things that you don't understand.  You and I can tell that this isn't a handheld camera in the sense that it is specialised for the task, but people who don't know this will get distracted and confused by it, and a conversation between people who know it and people who don't will just be confusing as they won't be able to tell who is right and who isn't.

Another way to say this is that it's not a problem if you already understand the topic.  That's great, if all you do is talk to people about things you already understand.

I'm different.  I spend a good amount of my time trying to learn things, things where I am the idiot who doesn't know things.  I've tried on dozens of occasions to ask questions and had the threads completely derailed because of confusion about words and phrases and people with differing skill levels not effectively communicating with each other.

It's not a theoretical phenomena, it's even cost me money.  I've bought expensive books or pieces of equipment because somewhere in some confusing as hell thread on it those things got mentioned.  I get them and they don't help.  Later, after I have struggled through learning this stuff the hard way (have a look at how many tests and stuff I do myself - I do this partly because it's not possible to get clear answers about this stuff online) I have revisited the confusing conversations to re-read them and now I can see who knew what they were talking about and who didn't.  

Unfortunately I spent the money and the time and the confusion while I was being an idiot, thinking that these things might help me, which is what you have to be to learn something new.

Saying that terminology doesn't matter because only idiots can't tell, is basically saying you don't care about learning and anyone who dares to read about new material is an idiot.

Well, I'm an idiot, but the real idiots are the people who don't ever try to learn something new.

It's odd that my learning process isn't quite as riddled with confusion as yours.  Yes I bought some items I ended up not needed.  That is normal and had nothing to do with misleading advertising or comments on the Web.  It's just that what sounded good in theory didn't work for me in practise.  Or maybe it didn't fit my way of working.  No one but me will know that, so there was nothing anyone else could say or do to change that.  It was my mistake to make and to take ownership of.  I don't blame others for it.

Again if I or Panasonic described the GH4 as a handheld camera, I doubt I'd hear a peep from you.  Assign the same term to another camera brand and its suddenly a bone of contention.  Would you describe the GH5s as handheld?

If Blackmagic advertised that you could film stable footage handheld, then yes, it is misleading advertising.  Describing it as handheld, just means it's small enough to be held in one's hand whilst working with it.  In this case, it is true.  As born out my those of us who do so.  To me the Pocket cameras are handheld tools in the same way my GH4 cameras are and my GH5s.  I can hold and operate them entirely with my hands, without any additional straps or support.  Therefore Blackmagic isn't being misleading.  They even have a handgrip.... 

[mrtreve]

43 minutes ago, pixelpreaching said:

The Pocket 6K does very well with overexposure (similar to Arri) vs. the C70 (and other Canons, like the C300 Mark III, C500 Mark II, and the RED Komodo) which handle underexposure better. I prefer the P6K/Arri approach but that's all it is, preference.

I think it's a bit overstated how good the highlight rolloff is on the P6K. I think the colour science is a bit Arri-like but the sensor is nowhere near as capable of holding bright highlights.

I will say that from my limited testing, the C70 is no slouch due to the DGO sensor. 

I can probably test it at some point if I rent a P6K. It'd be interesting to see where they all land.





 

[pixelpreaching]

56 minutes ago, mrtreve said:

I think it's a bit overstated how good the highlight rolloff is on the P6K. I think the colour science is a bit Arri-like but the sensor is nowhere near as capable of holding bright highlights.

Depends on how you expose. ISO 800 or 1000 will give you more highlight latitude and DR distribution closer to what Arri is at its native ISO.

But, no, at base ISO it is not as capable as Arri. To be fair, I don't think any sensor is.

[zerocool22]

2 hours ago, pixelpreaching said:

Why is everything about vlogging? Who is buying a $2500 cinema camera for vlogging? There's literally dozens of other cameras that are better suited to that and cost significantly less. Who needs a full frame sensor for vlogging? A Panasonic G9 or Olympus E-M1 series, or E-M5 series, or Fuii X-T4/S-10, etc etc etc... are all right there and much better options.

Flip out screens can interfere with cables and ports, unless you do what Panasonic did with the S1H, which is nice, but significantly increases the thickness. The a7sIII has issues with using the flip out screen while having HDMI or other cables attached.

I'd rather have internal ND filters than IBIS. Does ANY camera have both?

I'm just bewildered by why so many people want features in a cinema camera that aren't really beneficial to making cinema... CAF, vlogging features, IBIS, it's like everyone wants every camera to be exactly the same, even at the expense of cost, usability, or personal preferences. Like everything you mentioned is in the a7sIII, Panasonic S1H & S5, Canon R5 & R6, and a ton of other cameras if you strike the FF sensor.

I specifically said "I wont use it for vlogging "...
I thought the same as you a couple of years ago. I dont need ibis, I dont need AF, I dont need a flipoutscreen. And for most of my stuff I dont need it. But I learned, it sure comes in handy. I learned workflow is key, every minute you can shave off is a win. And these options(that are becoming standard for most mirrorless camera's) provide exactly that. Creating a nice image isnt that hard, getting multiple nice images in a small time window is a different story.