Nikon 8K mirrorless camera (Sony A1 clone)

[Andrew Reid]

7 hours ago, pixelpreaching said:

Nikon, the only mirrorless cameras with viewfinder humps.

It's pretty comical the extent to which you're misinterpreting what I am saying. I said the D6 styling was far better, much bigger hump but it has smooth flowing clean lines and looks like a real professional workhorse. The EVF hump on the Z9 looks like the 1 Series.

 

This is a $6000+ camera and must be judged as such.

If it is just going to cut & paste the A1 specs sheet that is not enough, I'm afraid.

Most cameras have Sony manufactured parts in them - the Sigma Fp, Panasonic S1, S1H, SL2-S, A7 III all those have practically the same sensor (which I don't have a problem with). What I would have issues with is if they were all almost identical with no unique selling points or form factors. They are ALL very different.

Also some cameras like the X-T4 have exclusivity of sensor. There's no Sony APS-C body with the X-T4 sensor.

[pixelpreaching]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It's pretty comical the extent to which you're misinterpreting what I am saying. I said the D6 styling was far better, much bigger hump but it has smooth flowing clean lines and looks like a real professional workhorse. The EVF hump on the Z9 looks like the 1 Series.

 

This is a $6000+ camera and must be judged as such.

If it is just going to cut & paste the A1 specs sheet that is not enough, I'm afraid.

Most cameras have Sony manufactured parts in them - the Sigma Fp, Panasonic S1, S1H, SL2-S, A7 III all those have practically the same sensor (which I don't have a problem with). What I would have issues with is if they were all almost identical with no unique selling points or form factors. They are ALL very different.

Also some cameras like the X-T4 have exclusivity of sensor. There's no Sony APS-C body with the X-T4 sensor.

Again, are you serious? The Z9 EVF hump looks nothing like that. The sides of the 1 series EVF are literally straight up vertical. The Z9 is sloped

The Z9 EVF looks like the Z6/Z7, but a little bit taller. There's a reason for that - first of all, it's clear the mode dial is taller as well because it has a sub-dial of some kind. Also, I guarantee they raised it up because they have buttons along the left side, unlike the Z7, which raise up the position of playback and delete to be in line with the EVF. Just like the D6. The less curved hump allows for the mode dial to be placed flatly, instead of angled like the D6. Which just happens to be.... how the Sony a1, every other Sony, all the Fujis, Panasonics, etc.

Again, why is "uniqueness" a factor? Why is that a "problem" for you? Do you not just pick the right tool for the job - one that does what you need and has pleasing ergonomics and whatnot that allow you to more easily do the job? You say you'd have a problem with unique selling points or form factors.

So I ask, if you want an integrated grip, D6/1DX styled FF mirrorless camera, where should you look? Someone else has one? Seems pretty damn unique to me. Lenses are also selling points, and they have many unique lenses for which there are no parallels in other systems. Color, menu UI, handling.... these are all selling points. One of the things that irks me about my X-T4 (and every other mirrorless camera it seems) is that I can't set the viewing mode to Eye Sensor EVF only with menu and playback on the LCD screen. I only use the EVF for shooting 99% of the time if I'm handheld, but I also don't want to go through a menu or playback in the EVF.

No one else offers this option. And it's actually a big issue for me. It mirrors how DSLRs worked and it saves battery by not constantly running the EVF or LCD. When I'm not shooting, the EVF eye-sensor shuts it off. And the LCD remains off.

Anyway, I'm tired of this conversation because you seem to want to be purposefully obtuse. This is a constant theme of yours to not apply things consistently across the board. Which is literally what bias is.

[Andrew Reid]

Whatever.

It's a $6000 camera. That is Leica and medium format territory.

I expect better than a Sony clone for this price.

Sure, use the technology available - I am fine with that - but at least be different.

For this much money you can get the GFX 100S. Unique selling points: medium format, 100 megapixels, Fuji colour science, very good codec.

Or you could get a Leica SL2-S. Beautifully engineered and designed.

Or you can just get the Sony A1. Smaller than the Z9 and it actually exists. Why wait 8 months to a year for the same thing in a different shaped body?

You keep banging on about me being biased or inconsistent. So don't expect me to be polite in return.

There is no bias in pointing out the fact the Sigma Fp has internal RAW recording for $2k from a full frame sensor, as well as being one of the smallest full frame cameras to ever exist, and that there's nothing else like it available on the market for the price. Equally there's no inconsistency in saying the Z9 isn't that unique, doesn't stand out on the market, and comes out a year later than the nearest competitor from Sony, with a vertical grip you can't remove and looks / ergonomics which look more consumer than pro.

Just some factual info for you. But then, when did stating facts get me anywhere...

[Matins 2]

Quote

Nikon’s hands are in the parts bin again! Let’s see what they come up with this time. Pick a sensor (from Sony). Pick an image processor (from Sony). Put it together in Thailand. Stamp a Nikon logo on the front and call it done. As with the Nikon Z6 and Sony A7 III so it follows the Z9 looks to be a Sony A1 with a Nikon badge.

Well said.

[pixelpreaching]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Whatever.

It's a $6000 camera. That is Leica and medium format territory.

I expect better than a Sony clone for this price.

Sure, use the technology available - I am fine with that - but at least be different.

For this much money you can get the GFX 100S. Unique selling points: medium format, 100 megapixels, Fuji colour science, very good codec.

Or you could get a Leica SL2-S. Beautifully engineered and designed.

Or you can just get the Sony A1. Smaller than the Z9 and it actually exists. Why wait 8 months to a year for the same thing in a different shaped body?

You keep banging on about me being biased or inconsistent. So don't expect me to be polite in return.

There is no bias in pointing out the fact the Sigma Fp has internal RAW recording for $2k from a full frame sensor, as well as being one of the smallest full frame cameras to ever exist, and that there's nothing else like it available on the market for the price. Equally there's no inconsistency in saying the Z9 isn't that unique, doesn't stand out on the market, and comes out a year later than the nearest competitor from Sony, with a vertical grip you can't remove and looks / ergonomics which look more consumer than pro.

Just some factual info for you. But then, when did stating facts get me anywhere...

You've stated almost no facts, that's pretty much the issue. Saying it's a Sony clone is not a fact. Harping about uniqueness isn't facts. Responding "whatever" to me showing you why something you're complaining about is the way it is and being what they call objective is not facts. All you say is that it's not unique, so that means it sucks and no one would want to buy it. According to Thom Hogan, you could not be more wrong about that one.

So you'd pay for the SL2-S - a $6000 camera missing about 90% of features that many photographers value and use - because it is nicely engineered and designed. For that much money, you could get a GFX 100S, medium format, 100 megapixels, Fuji colour science, very good codec.

The bias in the Sigma Fp is that you bashed the hell out of the Blackmagic Pockets for not having an EVF, IBIS, a tilt screen, etc - because apparently cinema cameras are supposed to be identical to mirrorless cameras now - but didn't give a care about those things in the Fp. Not only are all those true, the Fp: only does 8 bit internal RAW, doesn't do compressed RAW, doesn't do Prores internally, has a UI that pales to the Pockets, and had a TON of bugs and downright unacceptable flaws upon release and even many months later.

Anyone that reads your comments or posts about Blackmagic knows you have an extreme bias toward them because they didn't invite you to something one time or whatever. It's petty and unprofessional, man.

[Andrew Reid]

27 minutes ago, pixelpreaching said:

So you'd pay for the SL2-S - a $6000 camera missing about 90% of features that many photographers value and use

The SL2-S misses 90% of features that photographers use?

And you are stating facts here?

LOL

Quote

The bias in the Sigma Fp is that you bashed the hell out of the Blackmagic Pockets for not having an EVF, IBIS, a tilt screen, etc

The Sigma Fp is not trying to be an A7 III.

It is something different and an affordable way to shoot internal RAW 4K from a full frame sensor.

The Blackmagic Pocket cameras are an alternative to Super 35 and Micro Four Thirds sensor mirrorless cameras like the GH5, which almost always feature IBIS, a tilt screen and an EVF.

It seems Blackmagic agreed with me because in the latest Pocket they added an EVF accessory, a tilt screen and alas no IBIS because they lack the technology to do it.

I am not going to bash the Sigma Fp for lacking these things because of what else it offers for the price. If you can name a cheaper AND smaller internal 4K RAW shooting full frame hybrid camera that is as unique, then be my guest...

Besides I like Sigma as a company and want more choice beyond what we already have. It is great to have them in the market. Blackmagic I do not like as a company, mainly for the reason that when I last spent nearly 3000 euros on one of their brand new Pocket 6K cameras it arrived with a dirty sensor, a scratched lens mount, marks on the body fresh from the factory clingfilm wrapping and sealed box, show stopping bugs, the worst card / media compatibility on the market, unfinished firmware and a gang of marketing people who flat-out lied afterwards, fobbed me off, dodged the problem and insulted my intelligence by claiming the courier DHL scratched the lens mount through a sealed box and two layers of cardboard plus a lens cap ("Rough handling by the courier").

I simply decided I don't want to have any dealings with Blackmagic any more as a customer, as is my right.

Quote

because apparently cinema cameras are supposed to be identical to mirrorless cameras now - but didn't give a care about those things in the Fp. Not only are all those true, the Fp: only does 8 bit internal RAW, doesn't do compressed RAW, doesn't do Prores internally, has a UI that pales to the Pockets, and had a TON of bugs and downright unacceptable flaws upon release and even many months later.

Anyone that reads your comments or posts about Blackmagic knows you have an extreme bias toward them because they didn't invite you to something one time or whatever. It's petty and unprofessional, man.

You'll be banned soon so I don't care what you think. Another returnee who can't stay away after the first one.

[pixelpreaching]

9 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

You'll be banned soon so I don't care what you think. Another returnee who can't stay away after the first one.

Ah. I see how it is around here. Disagree with the leader and point out their (now admitted) biases, get booted. That's fine, then, Andrew. Have a nice career.

[Andrew Reid]

Yup that's how it works 🙂

Bye.

[Robert Collins]

I find the Sony A1 ergonomics fine. Partly because I am used to them and partly because the camera is relatively unobtrusive. It basically looks like any other A7 but is absolutely packed full of power (with the specs effectively combing an A7siii, A9ii and A7riv in one).

I do get that many video guys like large bodies and so do sport shooters (to counter balance their large lenses) and I certainly dont expect many 1DX3 or D5 shooters moving to Sony. But there is a big market out there I think for a large sensor chocked full of features in as small a body as possible.

Anyway I have pre-ordered the A1 and wouldnt have done so if it looked anything like the Canon R1 or potential new Nikon.

[IronFilm]

14 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It's a $6000 camera. That is Leica and medium format territory.

It is also a very normal price for top of the line / sports camera. 

The Nikon D6 and Canon 1D X Mk3 are both over US$6K.

This Nikon will be positioned as the Nikon mirrorless replacement of these. Just like the Sony A1 is! (which is also over US$6K) Had the BTS Set Photographer on today's film shoot (was one of our bigger days today, had nearly two hundred cast and crew on set, just for today's shoot) showing off his Sony A1 to me and raving on about how awesomely amazing it is for his photography. (he comes from a Canon background beforehand)

14 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

For this much money you can get the GFX 100S. Unique selling points: medium format, 100 megapixels, Fuji colour science, very good codec.

Or you could get a Leica SL2-S. Beautifully engineered and designed.

Both great cameras, but also both totally different types of cameras, primarily aimed at a different type of niche market than what Nikon has planned. 
 

14 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Or you can just get the Sony A1. Smaller than the Z9 and it actually exists. Why wait 8 months to a year for the same thing in a different shaped body?

Why should Sony have a monopoly in this niche?? We ought to welcome with open arms more competition! This is the first seriously high end pro mirrorless sports camera to be announced that will compete directly head to head against the Sony A1.
 

[Andrew Reid]

Exactly, why should the A1 have a monopoly in this niche.

Nikon should invent their own technology and try and compete against it.

[TomTheDP]

Would be nice to have another sensor competitor besides Canon. I think that could really up the competitive market game. 

[nickname]

Another spec sheet rant. How boring. 

[Django]

I feel Sony & Nikon are both playing catch up towards Canon who leapfrogged the whole industry bringing 8K RAW/10-bit to the FF hybrid market with DPAF.

The real question IMO is going to be who manages to bring a body that doesn't overheat? We already know the A1 overheats in 4K/8K XAVC-SI (I read reports ranging from 16mn to 30mn depending on frame rate, resolution & temperature). 

Will Nikons larger body allow better heat dissipation? 1DX3 seems to do so versus the smaller R5/R6 bodies.

Nikon also need to up their video AF performance, allow internal log etc. Their lack of cine department really shows vs the competition. Always seems to be some crucial feature missing..

[TomTheDP]

14 hours ago, Django said:

Nikon also need to up their video AF performance, allow internal log etc. Their lack of cine department really shows vs the competition. Always seems to be some crucial feature missing..

The lapse of a log profile is pretty bizarre. Even 10 bit is bizarre as the other big three all have it now. I mean Canon and Sony had the clout to hold out on 10 bit when Panasonic was offering it but it doesn't make sense for Nikon to do that. Especially at this point in time. Why go out of the way pushing the prores RAW thing, but leave out any good internal codec or color profile? I guess they are just hoping to retain some of the photography market that has used Nikon for the past two decades.