Help me on an eBay hunt for 4K under $200 - Is it possible?

[mercer]

9 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

Hey Kye, it´s the brittle HD 50p on a 25p timeline, coming from my Panasonic LX15 compact camera. @kye

8bit 25mbps 420 prowess, with super high shutters:)The 4K mode from this camera is very nice as shown in the examples by a talented visual artist, which I posted in another thread.

Compared to that, HD 50p is missing some hues for sure. But 4K grades pretty nicely. I had not been giving it enough work one year ago. But with a day off, I found my colour grading workflow and built some curves and powergrades for this lil marvel to get some beautiful colours out of it. Compared to the GX85 it is more tricky to grade. GX85 can be done in one node. This camera though needs some massaging. But it deserves it well, because it can holp up to the GX85 if graded with some efforts. These grades can be applied on future footage of course.

A bit of a tricky camera to handle, slippery, flimsy, but with patience it turns out to be a true little marvel indeed. At first I didnt like it at all. But inspired by the beautiful examples filmed with this camera, I gave it a real chance the last week and with open eyes and mind I recognized this camera has a lot to offer. One could complain that sensor estate for UHD is 2/3 inch sensor size only. But then there are not so many 2/3 inch sensor 4K cameras out there, with a 36 to 108mm lens to fit in your pocket.

Nice work! If you ever see an FZ300 for a good price, buy it. I think you'd like it. 

[PannySVHS]

22 minutes ago, mercer said:

Nice work! If you ever see an FZ300 for a good price, buy it. I think you'd like it. 

Hey, thank you for the tip! @mercer Sensor is smaller than from the LX15 though, isn´t it like 1/1.7 or 1/2.3?

A Lumix FZ2000 would sport the same sensor as the LX15 or RX series, and 200mbit for perfect HD resolution. Still pretty pricey though. I remember you did a beautiful BW video with the FZ. Will check it out again. I got too many cameras laying around, now two more of them.:) I just bought a Lumix G1 and G3 for photography without having to worry about equipment. I got them dirt cheap from a seller who was so kind to give them away for 25 EUR both, shipping included! Love the old school menues. 🙂

[kye]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Hey Kye, it´s the brittle HD 50p on a 25p timeline, coming from my Panasonic LX15 compact camera. @kye

Ah!  When I read "S16 sensor size pocket love" and I saw the lovely organic colour grade I took the word "pocket" to mean the OG BMPCC...  You did very well!

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Compared to that, HD 50p is missing some hues for sure. But 4K grades pretty nicely. I had not been giving it enough work one year ago. But with a day off, I found my colour grading workflow and built some curves and powergrades for this lil marvel to get some beautiful colours out of it. Compared to the GX85 it is more tricky to grade. GX85 can be done in one node. This camera though needs some massaging. But it deserves it well, because it can holp up to the GX85 if graded with some efforts. These grades can be applied on future footage of course.

The more I learn about colour grading (and other post-production image manipulations), the more I realise that the potential of these cameras is absolutely huge, but sadly, un-utilised to the point where many cameras have never been seen even remotely close to their potential.

The typical level of knowledge from solo-operators of cameras/cinematography vs colour grading is equivalent to a high-school teacher vs a hunter-gatherer.  I am working on the latter for myself, trying to even-up this balance as much as I can.

As you're aware I developed a powergrade to match iPhone with GX85 and it works as a template I can just drop onto each shot.  Unfortunately I am now changing workflows in Resolve and the new one breaks one of the nodes, so it looks like I will have to manually re-construct that node, which I have been putting off.

I've also been reviewing the excellent YT channel of Cullen Kelly, a rare example of a professional colourist who also puts knowledge onto YouTube, and have been adapting my thinking with some of the ideas he's shared.  One area of particular interest is his thoughts on film emulation.  To (over)simplify his philosophy, he suggests that film creates a desirable look and character that we may want to emulate, but it was also subject to a great number of limitations that were not desirable at the time and are likely not desirable now (unless you are attempting to get a historically accurate look) and so we should study film in order to understand and emulate the things that are desirable while moving past the limitations that came with real film.

I recommend this Q&A (and his whole channel) if this is of interest:

As I gradually understand and adopt various things from his content I anticipate I will further develop my own power grades.  

I'm curious to see how you're grading your LX15 footage, if you're willing to share.

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

A bit of a tricky camera to handle, slippery, flimsy, but with patience it turns out to be a true little marvel indeed. At first I didnt like it at all. But inspired by the beautiful examples filmed with this camera, I gave it a real chance the last week and with open eyes and mind I recognized this camera has a lot to offer. One could complain that sensor estate for UHD is 2/3 inch sensor size only. But then there are not so many 2/3 inch sensor 4K cameras out there, with a 36 to 108mm lens to fit in your pocket.

Wow, that is small!  I'd love something that small..  it's a pity that the stabilisation doesn't work in 4K or high-frame-rates.

Having a 36-108mm equivalent lens is a great focal range, and similar to many of the all-in-one S16 zooms back in the day.  I love the combination of the GX85 + 14mm f2.5 + 4K mode crop as it makes a FOV equivalent to a 31mm lens.  I used to be quite "over" the 28mm focal length, preferring 35mm, but I must admit I did find the 31mm FOV to be very useful when out and about, and having the extra reach is perfect for general purpose outdoor work.  I want to upgrade to the 12-32mm kit lens, which gives the GX85 a 26-70mm FOV in 4K mode (and 52-140 with the 2x digital zoom for extra reach).

[BTM_Pix]

One major thing that the LX10/15 has over the RX100 series is the f1.4 minimum aperture on the wide end.

The RX100 series have the sLog profiles but this is mitigated on the LX10/15 if you install my Cinelike D hack.

I actually prefer just having Cinelike D as its easier to deal with in a casual camera than sLog having to be exposed at ISO1600. 

You can add ND to both of course using stick on filter adapters but having to reduce from ISO100 instead of ISO1600 it a lot less problematic in terms of not getting X pattern artefacts etc.

Everyone should just get an FZ2000/2500 though as it really is a powerhouse and, if we were brutally honest with ourselves, probably as much of a camera as many of us actually need 😉 

Its a bit chunky though so a combination of that and the LX10/15 would be great for travel where the LX could be used where discretion is required but at minimal additional weight with the bonus of the flexibility of two matched cameras (using Cinelike D) instead of one.

[PannySVHS]

On 6/23/2023 at 6:12 AM, kye said:

I'm curious to see how you're grading your LX15 footage, if you're willing to share.

I started out fancy and the I broke it down to three nodes. In some shots I did over the last couple days, some extra fancyness enhanced the quality in others not so much.

The grade for the video above was a treatment of the very brittle HD 50p codec of this camera. Also, the blacks much more compressed than on the quality bunch of the MFT cameras. Could be due to having filmed with Vivid profile, though I had nice results with that on my GX85, which is still painting comparably better colours by a margin imho. Though the DP I posted before, got some awesome colours out of the LX, still with some flat shadows. By that I don´t mean pushed down but flat out missing too much to start with.

First I followed the DPs route and transformed to Arric spac and log and worked in front and behind the conversion with curve and CST back to Rec 709. For some footage that was a nice extra step for other footage not so much for me.

I then got a tree of three nodes with gentle curves and fared pretty well. My video above is to brittle for my taste but I gave up on choosing between different variantes and I had to decide for one of the grades. Color metrics has been akward. Light was super challenging, Vivid profile maybe the wrong choice and 25Mbit 50p with Canon 7Ds line skipping not a good base for an easy grade. Anyway, I can send you the dpx if you like. @kye Cheers and thanks for the kind words. 🙂 

Btw, stab works in 4K, but panning is a sucker, jerky and unpredictable in that. But in a pinch for little sketches it is okay. Works okay for static shots, even in tele. No comparison at all to a GX85 or other Panasonic cameras. Still a fun and very worthwhile camera! I will dig more into this little gem.

[kye]

3 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I started out fancy and the I broke it down to three nodes. In some shots I did over the last couple days, some extra fancyness enhanced the quality in others not so much.

The grade for the video above was a treatment of the very brittle HD 50p codec of this camera. Also, the blacks much more compressed than on the quality bunch of the MFT cameras. Could be due to having filmed with Vivid profile, though I had nice results with that on my GX85, which is still painting comparably better colours by a margin imho. Though the DP I posted before, got some awesome colours out of the LX, still with some flat shadows. By that I don´t mean pushed down but flat out missing too much to start with.

First I followed the DPs route and transformed to Arric spac and log and worked in front and behind the conversion with curve and CST back to Rec 709. For some footage that was a nice extra step for other footage not so much for me.

I then got a tree of three nodes with gentle curves and fared pretty well. My video above is to brittle for my taste but I gave up on choosing between different variantes and I had to decide for one of the grades. Color metrics has been akward. Light was super challenging, Vivid profile maybe the wrong choice and 25Mbit 50p with Canon 7Ds line skipping not a good base for an easy grade. Anyway, I can send you the dpx if you like. @kye Cheers and thanks for the kind words. 🙂 

Btw, stab works in 4K, but panning is a sucker, jerky and unpredictable in that. But in a pinch for little sketches it is okay. Works okay for static shots, even in tele. No comparison at all to a GX85 or other Panasonic cameras. Still a fun and very worthwhile camera! I will dig more into this little gem.

Interesting comment about colour, thanks for sharing.

My impression of Vivid on GX85 was that it boosted the saturation.  In theory, this is a superior approach to recording a flat profile, as long as it doesn't clip any colours in the scene.  This is because if colours are boosted in-camera they will be processed in RAW and not yet subject to quantisation errors and compression errors.  Then in post when you would presumably reduce the saturation any quantisation errors and compression errors such as blocking etc will be reduced.  This is why B&W footage from older cameras looks so much nicer than full-colour images.

I've also noticed that downsampling in post or adding a very slight blur can obscure pixel-level artefacts and quantisation issues.  I learned this while grading XC10 footage, which is the worst of all worlds - 8-bit 4K C-Log.

I've also had success with a CST from 709/2.4 to a wider space (like DWG), then grading there, then a CST/LUT to get back to 709/2.4 output.  This has the distinct advantage of applying adjustments in a (roughly) proportional way, so if you change exposure or WB it does it in proportion across the luma range, much closer to doing it in-camera than operating directly on the 709 with all its built-in curves.