Lenses like the helios 44?

[james d]

Thanks to all suggestion in this thread.

 

@Andylee, thanks for you suggestions, the sigma looks interesting to me.

 

@richG, it would be nice to see these once they are ready. When will they be?

@bioskop, it’s wider lenses which are needed. There is an helios 35mm but no footage of it out there. The meteor looks great but it is only 16mm:S

@Sean Cunning, thanks I have now started to study the Jena and have my eye on a 20mm for testing!

@Andy, the helios is sharp without being clinical, you can also tell it’s superiority compared to the 2.8 nikkors 24 and 35mm I have been using. To me the image it’s well ahead of what the nikkors produce.

@Animanus,  That’s interesting what C mounts are you talking about? Thanks for your reply!

@Quirky, thanks, I have just seen some Minolta footage and it looks great, am looking to purchase a lens to test with.

 

Here is some of my research from this thread.

 

[Sean Cunningham]

Something to consider while looking at the Jena series is I've read steer towards the Pentacon 6 mount and not the M42 version.  P6 is the medium format version.  Performance is reportedly about twice what the numbers would lead you to expect when paired with a smaller format camera.  

 

Also, it may be better to go for the "zebra" versions rather than the black painted or anodized "MC" version because I've read at least one reference that states the coatings on these later versions suffered from supply problems in communist DDR.  The earlier, larger, single-coated versions are going to have more "magic".  I don't know if this is true for the entire family of Jena glass or just the longer end, or just folklore but the proof is in the pudding AFAIC with the 80mm Biometer.

 

The DSO option sounds like a great alternative if nothing in the 28-35mm range pans out.

[Bioskop.Inc]

There are a couple of good posts over at BMCuser in the Lens section that might interest you - a recent one about these Jena lenses & another about wider Russain options.

 

Also, you never really mentioned which BM camera you were using, but am assuming its not the Pocket.

You could try one of those cheap focal reducer adaptors, since a lot of the wider Russain lenses are quite soft on the edges, produce quite alot of distortion & aren't very fast (f3.5 mostly) anyway.

Its a real shame that you don't like either the Nikons or the FDs, then you could have gotten a SpeedBooster...

[andy lee]

Something to consider while looking at the Jena series is I've read steer towards the Pentacon 6 mount and not the M42 version.  P6 is the medium format version.  Performance is reportedly about twice what the numbers would lead you to expect when paired with a smaller format camera.  

 

Also, it may be better to go for the "zebra" versions rather than the black painted or anodized "MC" version because I've read at least one reference that states the coatings on these later versions suffered from supply problems in communist DDR.  The earlier, larger, single-coated versions are going to have more "magic".  I don't know if this is true for the entire family of Jena glass or just the longer end, or just folklore but the proof is in the pudding AFAIC with the 80mm Biometer.

 

The DSO option sounds like a great alternative if nothing in the 28-35mm range pans out.

 

The P6 Zeiss lenses are very good, especially the 80mm Biometar mine is a 1964 version pre zebra with a plastic focusing ring and it is one of the sharpest lenses I own !!  its a great lens with alot of character

 

 

or

you can buy the Russian KMZ copy of it the MC VOLNA 80MM F2.8

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MC-Volna-3B-80mm-f2-8-lens-Pentacon-six-Kiev-60-Biometar-copy-Arsenal-/201051218476?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item2ecf96222c

[Lucian]

the Vega 20mm f2. Has anyone tried this lens or have any info on it? never heard of it till now!

 

wondering if it's big enough to work with anamorphics and holds up comparably to helios wide open.

[andy lee]

its a tiny lens designed for Kiev 16mm film cameras

I sold mine 2 weeks ago along with the Tair and Mir that go with it , it only works on BMPCC with an adaptor

doesnt not even cover Micro4/3 sensor properly. and forget APSC and Full frame

[Sean Cunningham]

...

 

or

you can buy the Russian KMZ copy of it the MC VOLNA 80MM F2.8

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MC-Volna-3B-80mm-f2-8-lens-Pentacon-six-Kiev-60-Biometar-copy-Arsenal-/201051218476?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item2ecf96222c

 

So that is to the Jena 80mm as the Helios is to the Zeiss 58mm?  Do you or have you had access to both?  I'm curious how they compare, not that the real Jena are terribly expensive.  Even if the design itself is a carbon copy I would imagine the source or formula for the glass itself and coatings would make some kind of difference.  Even with the Helios 44 there seems to be a palette of available looks based on era, manufacturer, etc. even though they're all the same lens.  You kinda roll the dice.

 

A mathematician and human visual system specialist friend of mine has interesting things to say about Russian glass that syncs right up to what I think I recall Rich mentioning about the glass itself and micro diffusion properties.  They have a built in point spread function that's been engineered out of modern glass that wants to simply pass light through as unaffected as possible (which exacerbates the bad mojo you get from fixed grid sampling in CCD and CMOS).

[Lucian]

its a tiny lens designed for Kiev 16mm film cameras

I sold mine 2 weeks ago along with the Tair and Mir that go with it , it only works on BMPCC with an adaptor

doesnt not even cover Micro4/3 sensor properly. and forget APSC and Full frame

 

I was planning on using it with the d16,  but sounds like it is small like cmount 16mm glass. I love using that stuff but it becomes a pain when paired with an iscorama. Still trying to rig someway of locking focus on them so it doesnt slip when turning the anamorphic.

 

The search for a fast 20mm with character continues.

[andy lee]

Carl Zeiss 20mm f2.8 is a great 20mm - with all the Zeiss goodness!!

 

 

also the Panasonic 20mm f1.7 is a very good sharp small lens

[Lucian]

From the sample pics, the zeiss looks pretty rough at 2.8, do you find it usable wide open?

 

Panasonic lenses are very sharp but are too clinical and bland for my tastes. I think the helios and Mir 35mm have spoiled me :P

[andy lee]

its good at f2.8 its one of the sharpest lenses I have plus one of the oldest 1964 !! so its a 50 year old lens!!

 

these are medium format camera lenses so designed to be sharp edge to edge over a 2 1/4 inch square frame !!

I shot 2 1/4 negatives for many many years in the late 80's and all through the 90's for stills for record album covers.

 

now if that was a sensor you would all be drooling over it its a huge area to resolve an image over!

imagine a 2 1/4 inch square sensor!!

so these lenses are very very good!!

Zeiss made the lens for Hasselblad

 

if I was buying this new Sony 4k full frame camera anounced today

I would be putting Medium format lenses on it as they resolve amazing images !

[Lucian]

Interesting, thanks for info! I may just sell off some 25mms and give the flektagon a try :)

[Lucian]

Don't suppose you have ever paired it with an anamorphic? I'm thinking the large front element might be a problem.

[andy lee]

I use the Zeiss 80mm with my Schneider anamorphic - stunningly sharp results too!

its one of the lenses you can use full frame with anamorphics as most vignette below 80mm on FF

[nahua]

The P6 Zeiss lenses are very good, especially the 80mm Biometar mine is a 1964 version pre zebra with a plastic focusing ring and it is one of the sharpest lenses I own !!  its a great lens with alot of character

 

 

or

you can buy the Russian KMZ copy of it the MC VOLNA 80MM F2.8

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MC-Volna-3B-80mm-f2-8-lens-Pentacon-six-Kiev-60-Biometar-copy-Arsenal-/201051218476?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item2ecf96222c

I'm wondering how the 80mm biometer compares to the Helios 40 85mm.  Are these P6 lenses better because they are made for larger Medium Format?  I've never thought about using Medium Format for Full Frame or Micro 4/3rds.  Any frame grabs or videos shot with these lenses?

[richg101]

On the topic of medium format lenses...  I actually think they are better on full frame than lenses designed for full frame.  particularly wide open due to the fact that vignetting wide open is cropped away - if you take measurement of a helios 44 wide open on full frame the vignette at the corners is over 1.5 stops.  There is CA and softness, but these are what make the lens look so lovely due to the aberrations being of the pleasing type.    With medium format lenses, you lose a lot of the lovely edge nasties that make the helios 44 so lush.

 

a Vega12b (90mm f2.8) is awesome on full frame since it is literally a scaled up helios 44.  however the creamy portion of the lens is not used due to the 1.5x crop and the image lacks those traits we all love of the helios 44.

[richg101]

I'm wondering how the 80mm biometer compares to the Helios 40 85mm.  Are these P6 lenses better because they are made for larger Medium Format?  I've never thought about using Medium Format for Full Frame or Micro 4/3rds.  Any frame grabs or videos shot with these lenses?

 

the biometar will smoke the helios40 for image quality wide open on full frame, but will not show as much of that lovely swirl effect we know and love of the helios40.

 

if you look at the aperture measurements vs the optical surface measurements of the helios 44, helios 40 and similar full frame lenses you'll see the optics don't quite accommodate for the aperture size and from my basic but informed understanding it is this attribute which is delivering the strange and wonderful swirling.  the biometar will show these nice things but only when used on a 6x6 format where the lens is pushed to within a micro of its capabilities. 

[richg101]

I have recently been playing with a rather ineresting medium format lens.  The Noritar 80mm f2, which i needed to fabricate a mount for due to their being no adaptors manufactured for this exotic beast.  It has gotten the nickname 'The medium format Noctilux'....

 

>

 

as you can see, even wide open the lens is creamy which being sharp enough for its purpose.  due to the 1.5 crop of its image circle (its a medium format lens) the vignette and ca is lost, but the bokeh rendition is still present.  this is likely gonna be fitted to a tilt shift type adaptor as some point.  

[richg101]

Since the Helios 44 is a copy of a Zeiss Biotar I would think wider Jena lenses would be in the ballpark.  They tend to not be as fast as the 58mm however:

 

 

...is it the slower speed or other properties that don't make something like this appealing, Rich?

 

It's the combination of slower speed and the fact that the wider lenses don't contain that magical double gauss lens prescription.  In the same way the iscorama loves the helios 44, my drive for the wides has been this integration of a planar lens and a high quality wide attachment (which the iscorama effectively is, but only on the horizontal plane).  I've not gone deep into a rama before, but it's no more than 4 or 5 elements forming the anamorphot behind the pair of sphericals handling the focus diopter duties.

 

As Andy has stated, it is certainly worth trying out the multi element century wide angle attachments with a helios 44 when on smaller sensors like the pocket since it is only at the edges where these attachments fall apart.  The only issue is the weight of them - they're atleast twice the weight of a century 16:9 adaptor!

[Sean Cunningham]

Yeah, I would imagine your attachments aren't going to be light either. 

 

I was just looking at some charts showing the history of the double gauss and outside a few mostly non-applicable lenses they seem to be mostly in the ~50mm range with a bunch of 40mm and just a few 35mm.  Bummer.  The Voigtlander Nokton 25mm is one though it's just MFT and quite espensive.

 

BTW, do you guys tend to go for a particular Helios 44 for FF58 or is this something that can be to-order?  The way they kind of drastically change character at the jump from f/2.8 to f/2 seems stronger with some than others.  I've seen at least one tester with a handful of them and they were all different.  They ended up giving away all but three 44-2 that even among those seemed fairly unique in character.

 

I was almost shocked how soft the Iscorama-54 was in:

>

...and here you see two different Helios 44 with very different character and relative softness in the combo.