Firmware update turns Panasonic S1 into an S1H (albeit with record-time limit in demanding modes like 6K)

[Lux Shots]

4 hours ago, deezid said:

Probably just interpret as PQ/LINEAR in fcpx or Premiere. Dynamic range is exactly the same in ProRes Raw/Braw vs internal.

Only benefits are:

- no chroma denoising

- 12 bit 444

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dynamic range is the same, but not the ability to recover from over exposure. Try that with H.264 V-Log and it's gone forever.

[Lux Shots]

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I don't know if you noticed @Lux Shots but there's banding in your picture? A big grey bar right through the centre. Or should that be gray and center? Anyway, I spotted it.

Good catch, I must a missed it! 🤣

[Stab]

Oh yea, and the biggest thing is actually the abillity to shoot 10-bit in 4k 50 fps / 60fps. Albeit 4:2:0, still a thousand times better than 8-bit. It makes shooting in v-log feasible.

[Stathman]

So, no crop in 4k50p mode on the S1?

[deezid]

8 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

Dynamic range is the same, but not the ability to recover from over exposure. Try that with H.264 V-Log and it's gone forever.

ehh, no.
Same exposure with RAW would lead to the same exact amount of clipping.
PRR defaults to PQ/Linear on most NLEs, which is the reason why it appears overexposed and data can be "recovered". 

[JR Lipartito]

17 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Just imagine if Atomos release a new Ninja Star for ProRes Raw - or BMD do something similar for Braw. I'd buy one, or both in an instant.

I do love the idea of a ninja star-like device, but the one big caveat is not being able to playback any shots without unplugging the media and connecting to a computer. I think that’s why monitor/recorders took over the external recording market. Now if it could wirelessly connect to a phone or tablet for playback...THAT would be a dream recorder. 

[Stab]

7 hours ago, Stathman said:

So, no crop in 4k50p mode on the S1?

Incorrect. Still 1.56x crop in 4k50p and 60p.

[zerocool22]

7 hours ago, JR Lipartito said:

I do love the idea of a ninja star-like device, but the one big caveat is not being able to playback any shots without unplugging the media and connecting to a computer. I think that’s why monitor/recorders took over the external recording market. Now if it could wirelessly connect to a phone or tablet for playback...THAT would be a dream recorder. 

Well the latest camera's can write to external disks over usb-c, so I guess they should be able to read as well, if they program it (over hdmi will not be possible). At least if they work togheter and create an awesome product 🙂 

[MicahMahaffey]

I love my S1, its quickly become my favorite camera, cant wait for this update 

Crazy, I never expected it to become a 6k camera. But im not complaining 🙂

[Emanuel]

On 3/18/2021 at 3:54 AM, JR Lipartito said:

at fairly equal compression I think you’d be hard pressed to find much difference in quality between BRAW and Prores Raw.

BRAW’s advantage is having several lower-bitrate options, with the lowest 12:1 @4K compression lightweight enough to be recorded to fast SD cards. Some people might have got higher modes to work with certain cards too. And 12:1 still holds up very well to post-production abuse, even chroma key.

The real problem for BRAW though, are the BM Video Assists themselves. To the built-in SD card slots you’ll only be able to record that lowest bit rate option (as far as I know). For anything better you’ll have to connect an SSD to the Video Assist over USB c...that’s just one too many points of contact where things can go wrong.

So I wouldn’t get too excited about this update until BM puts out a View Assist with better internal recording media.

 

 

I understand your concern but, I haven't had a single trouble going with external SSD storage for years now. I simply don't care to hear about for anything other to be honest : )

With the right rig, no need for worries. Really :- )

[Cliff Totten]

So here's the deal....

The S1 can do:

1.) Unlimited 5.9k sensor readout all day long 24/7 with no thermal issues.

2.) Unlimited 5.9 image processing with no thermal issues

3.) Unlimited 5.9k raw over HDMI with no thermal issues....even continuing after the recorded file write 15min. time limit.

4.) The GH5 with it's same encoder chip can record unlimited open gate 19mp 6k video....with no thermal issues in a much smaller body.

Does anybody else believe the S1 was capped at 5.9k internal recording to protect the S1H?

[Cliff Totten]

On 3/18/2021 at 9:25 PM, deezid said:

ehh, no.
Same exposure with RAW would lead to the same exact amount of clipping.
PRR defaults to PQ/Linear on most NLEs, which is the reason why it appears overexposed and data can be "recovered". 

Clipping occurs when sensor photosites are saturated and can't collect any more photons. There is no "raw" on planet Earth that can "recover highlights" from a saturated photosite. The term "highlight recovery" that everybody throws around is not a real thing. You either clipped and saturated photosites on your sensor or you didnt. You either crossed that threshold or didnt. Neither Log video OR raw sensor data can save you from clipped sampling. Pure white....is always pure white. So is pure black. This goes for both log video and raw.

[Lux Shots]

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

So here's the deal....

The S1 can do:

1.) Unlimited 5.9k sensor readout all day long 24/7 with no thermal issues.

2.) Unlimited 5.9 image processing with no thermal issues

3.) Unlimited 5.9k raw over HDMI with no thermal issues....even continuing after the recorded file write 15min. time limit.

4.) The GH5 with it's same encoder chip can record unlimited open gate 19mp 6k video....with no thermal issues in a much smaller body.

Does anybody else believe the S1 was capped at 5.9k internal recording to protect the S1H?

The only time my fan ever comes on heavy on my S1H is when shooting 5.9K for extended periods. We also know that a hot sensor will have more noise than a cooler one, so that may have something to do with it also.

[deezid]

12 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Clipping occurs when sensor photosites are saturated and can't collect any more photons. There is no "raw" on planet Earth that can "recover highlights" from a saturated photosite. The term "highlight recovery" that everybody throws around is not a real thing. You either clipped and saturated photosites on your sensor or you didnt. You either crossed that threshold or didnt. Neither Log video OR raw sensor data can save you from clipped sampling. Pure white....is always pure white. So is pure black. This goes for both log video and raw.

That's basically what I meant. And when your NLE doesn't do a proper gamma conversion it may appear like you can recover data, data that has always been there before. So nothing special here...

[Jimmy G]

18 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

So here's the deal....

The S1 can do:

1.) Unlimited 5.9k sensor readout all day long 24/7 with no thermal issues.

2.) Unlimited 5.9 image processing with no thermal issues

3.) Unlimited 5.9k raw over HDMI with no thermal issues....even continuing after the recorded file write 15min. time limit.

4.) The GH5 with it's same encoder chip can record unlimited open gate 19mp 6k video....with no thermal issues in a much smaller body.

Does anybody else believe the S1 was capped at 5.9k internal recording to protect the S1H?

Hi Cliff,

Can you clarify the S1-recording-times and no-6K information you're presenting, it does not jibe with what Panasonic is stating on their latest update page...
<<

・6K(5952x3968) / 5.9K(5888x3312) / 5.4K(5376x3584) video recording mode in MOV format *¹
   -6K 24p, 4:2:0 10bit LongGOP, 200Mbps, LPCM *¹
   -5.9K 30p/25p/24p, 4:2:0 10bit LongGOP, 200Mbps, LPCM *¹
   -5.4K 30p/25p, 4:2:0 10bit LongGOP, 200Mbps, LPCM *¹

...

*1 Maximum continuous recording time is 15 minutes.

>>

...from here...

LUMIX FIRMWARE UPDATE - Panasonic

https://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/lumix/firmware_update.html

...am I missing something? Link?

Jim

[MicahMahaffey]

19 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

So here's the deal....

The S1 can do:

1.) Unlimited 5.9k sensor readout all day long 24/7 with no thermal issues.

2.) Unlimited 5.9 image processing with no thermal issues

3.) Unlimited 5.9k raw over HDMI with no thermal issues....even continuing after the recorded file write 15min. time limit.

4.) The GH5 with it's same encoder chip can record unlimited open gate 19mp 6k video....with no thermal issues in a much smaller body.

Does anybody else believe the S1 was capped at 5.9k internal recording to protect the S1H?

The S1 is a full frame camera, takes more to keep a full frame cool than a smaller mft sensor. 

 

Thus the limitation. 

[Cliff Totten]

54 minutes ago, Jimmy G said:

Hi Cliff,

Can you clarify the S1-recording-times and no-6K information you're presenting, it does not jibe with what Panasonic is stating on their latest update page...
<<

・6K(5952x3968) / 5.9K(5888x3312) / 5.4K(5376x3584) video recording mode in MOV format *¹
   -6K 24p, 4:2:0 10bit LongGOP, 200Mbps, LPCM *¹
   -5.9K 30p/25p/24p, 4:2:0 10bit LongGOP, 200Mbps, LPCM *¹
   -5.4K 30p/25p, 4:2:0 10bit LongGOP, 200Mbps, LPCM *¹

...

*1 Maximum continuous recording time is 15 minutes.

>>

...from here...

LUMIX FIRMWARE UPDATE - Panasonic

https://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/lumix/firmware_update.html

...am I missing something? Link?

Jim

No,...I'm saying the S1 does a 5.9k sensor readout, every day, all day long. 5.9k full width read window is it's normal every day scan. So, the "sensor" does 5.9k with no thermal problems. It always has from day one, even when saving 4k files, the sensor reads at 5.9k. The file saved is oversampled 4k from a 5.9k readout.

The new firmware takes that same 5.9k sensor readout and instead of saving that file to 4k, it will now saves in to a 5.9k file and places a 15 min cap on it.

The 5.9k readout, 5.9k image processing and 5.9k raw out to HDMI continues with no time limit or thermal issues after the 5.9k internal file ends.

Im 99.99% certain this 15min limit is only a firmware cripple to protect the S1H

[Cliff Totten]

36 minutes ago, MicahMahaffey said:

The S1 is a full frame camera, takes more to keep a full frame cool than a smaller mft sensor. 

 

Thus the limitation. 

So....the sensor is not having any thermal problems in 5.9k. Actually, 5.9k is its normal readout mode. It does this all day long in full frame. The only way to stop its 5.9k read window is to switch to APS-C.

So....it reads 5.9k with no heat problems or time limits.

It image processes that 5.9k with no heat problems and scales it down to 4k for recording with no thermal problems or limits.

It sends 5.9k raw to the HDMI unlimited with no heat problems.

It continues all its 5.9k sensor readout, 5.9k processing and 5.9k raw output unlimited with no heat problems....even after the 5.9k file finishes it recording cap.

See?

[TomTheDP]

9 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

No,...I'm saying the S1 does a 5.9k sensor readout, every day, all day long. 5.9k full width read window is it's normal every day scan. So, the "sensor" does 5.9k with no thermal problems. It always has from day one, even when saving 4k files, the sensor reads at 5.9k. The file saved is oversampled 4k from a 5.9k readout.

The new firmware takes that same 5.9k sensor readout and instead of saving that file to 4k, it will now saves in to a 5.9k file and places a 15 min cap on it.

The 5.9k readout, 5.9k image processing and 5.9k raw out to HDMI continues with no time limit or thermal issues after the 5.9k internal file ends.

Im 99.99% certain this 15min limit is only a firmware cripple to protect the S1H

Could be for sure. At least it has unlimited 4k which most cameras do not. 

[Jimmy G]

59 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

No,...I'm saying the S1 does a 5.9k sensor readout, every day, all day long. 5.9k full width read window is it's normal every day scan. So, the "sensor" does 5.9k with no thermal problems. It always has from day one, even when saving 4k files, the sensor reads at 5.9k. The file saved is oversampled 4k from a 5.9k readout.

The new firmware takes that same 5.9k sensor readout and instead of saving that file to 4k, it will now saves in to a 5.9k file and places a 15 min cap on it.

The 5.9k readout, 5.9k image processing and 5.9k raw out to HDMI continues with no time limit or thermal issues after the 5.9k internal file ends.

Im 99.99% certain this 15min limit is only a firmware cripple to protect the S1H

Well, I'm no circuit designer but I've got to think that the main CMOS imaging sensors in digital cameras are subsampled to output to the appropriate resolutions (5.76MP EVF/2.1MP Display on S1), I should think that continuous full sensor output is very energy inefficient.