Firmware update turns Panasonic S1 into an S1H (albeit with record-time limit in demanding modes like 6K)

[Lux Shots]

1 hour ago, Jimmy G said:

Hi Lux Shots,

This page does not load in FF or Safari (Can't find server), however, your second post/link does work and I've downloaded the file for later viewing. Thanks for taking the time to put that together and share it here! 🙂

Jim

Enjoy!

Report back the time in the video where the quality turns to crap if you can see it.

[Mark Romero 2]

9 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

Link is valid for 72 hours, and the file size is 700MB. Music video has a NSFW due to language.

I'm on it. Thanks!!!

[Video Hummus]

I would rather wait for compressed internal RAW then have to use a external recorder on a mirrorless camera. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of using a smaller camera in the fist place.

Really surprised they didn’t put something faster than SD in the S1H. Kinda of a cripple move when the S1/S1R has CFX. They could have at least down some form of RAW for the camera. 

[Lux Shots]

52 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

I would rather wait for compressed internal RAW then have to use a external recorder on a mirrorless camera. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of using a smaller camera in the fist place.

Really surprised they didn’t put something faster than SD in the S1H. Kinda of a cripple move when the S1/S1R has CFX. They could have at least down some form of RAW for the camera. 

They did the right thing, or they'd be in the same boat as Kinefinity. Sigma gets away with internal RAW because it's not compressed, so you can get a whole 20 minutes of 8-bit video on a 256GB card.

[Video Hummus]

3 minutes ago, Lux Shots said:

They did the right thing, or they'd be in the same boat as Kinefinity. Sigma gets away with internal RAW because it's not compressed, so you can get a whole 20 minutes of 8-bit video on a 256GB card.

Cant they come up with a Panasonic version of Canon Cinema RAW Light? Something compressed up to the limit of that RED patent. 

[Lux Shots]

22 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Cant they come up with a Panasonic version of Canon Cinema RAW Light? Something compressed up to the limit of that RED patent. 

As an engineer, the goal when writing a patent is to try and make it as broad as possible. I expect RED's patents to cover any camera internal compressed RAW recording, no matter the compression rate. What we do not know, is if Canon is already paying a license agreement to RED, or if a technology reciprocation agreement exist between the two companies. If I remember correctly, didn't RED's new Komodo come with the Canon RF mount? That is a really really big deal, which says tons about the cooperation between the two.

[TomTheDP]

A 12 bit codec like Blackmagic has would be just as good as RAW for me. 

[Lux Shots]

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

A 12 bit codec like Blackmagic has would be just as good as RAW for me. 

That is BRAW right? They don't anything else 12-bit, besides their own RAW codec, do they?

[Video Hummus]

4 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

As an engineer, the goal when writing a patent is to try and make it as broad as possible. I expect RED's patents to cover any camera internal compressed RAW recording, no matter the compression rate. What we do not know, is if Canon is already paying a license agreement to RED, or if a technology reciprocation agreement exist between the two companies. If I remember correctly, didn't RED's new Komodo come with the Canon RF mount? That is a really really big deal, which says tons about the cooperation between the two.

Yes, but CRAW light existed well before RF Komodo.

I mean reading the RED patent it’s pretty clear about resolution and compression ratios but I’m not a patent lawyer so I’m sure it’s more complicated than that.

Seems weird canon is the only mainstream camera manufacture with a internal RAW option. Z-cam ZRAW is like BRAW I do believe which isn’t quite the same thing but still offers more control than 10-bit log.

[Mark Romero 2]

22 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

The other link is trash. Best to download the file instead of playing it, as my upload bandwidth is severely limited. Let's see if you can tell where the quality takes a dump, and that is where I went from shooting from H.264 to H.265.

https://www.myqnapcloud.com/smartshare/6g774717np2m262q22u220y2_6CkDTsX

Password: NOLIES

 

OK, so I downloaded and watched. It is hard to say a particular scene has a difference in quality, but it sure seems softer when you punch in. So a scene might start wide but when it is zoomed in / cropped in, it seems softer.

Am I missing something??? I don't have the best eyesight.

[TomTheDP]

3 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

That is BRAW right? They don't anything else 12-bit, besides their own RAW codec, do they?

Yes, I said 12 bit codec as BRAW isn't actually RAW which is why it doesn't conflict with RED's patent. I am perfectly fine with any type of 12 bit codec even if it doesn't have white balance control. The extra color information is what I am after. As long as the bitrate is high enough to support it. 

[Jimmy G]

19 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

Enjoy!

Report back the time in the video where the quality turns to crap if you can see it.

Hi Lux Shots,

My quick list based on IQ only...

opening car sequence (also strange phasing going on with wheel rims in the slo-mo, also purple fringing in headlights)

00:00:48:15, 01:07:18, 01:36:13

final shot

...all have lesser sharpness pretty much in agreement with Mark Romero 2's comments below. However, the shots I've listed look to have been shot with a longer lens than the rest (short tele vs. wide angle) vs. being punch-ins, there is clearly a punch-in at 00:01:48:11.

I'd suspect the long shot lens to be of lesser quality than your WA and may be contributing to the sharpness loss, thoughts?

If there are other subtle differences based on HEVC my eye is not familiar enough to pick them out (been shooting various 8-bit internal Picture Profiles, thus far), so (in case I've "missed it") I'd be curious to hear what you're seeing?

10 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

OK, so I downloaded and watched. It is hard to say a particular scene has a difference in quality, but it sure seems softer when you punch in. So a scene might start wide but when it is zoomed in / cropped in, it seems softer.

Am I missing something??? I don't have the best eyesight.

In the context of a music video (where often one sees mixed media being used throughout) the IQ changes are, (again) to my eyes and sensibilities, both ignorable and maybe expected. However if that's not what you were trying to convey, then, yes, the IQ differences could be problematic with either you or the client...all IMHO.

Nicely done...definitely beyond my skill set and the camera output (as I expected from shooting my S1's) was tops. Thanks for sharing for review and comment! :)

Jim

[Jimmy G]

To follow up on my confusions as to why external ProRes RAW shooting was only possible on the Ninja V...

The kind folks at Apple's ProRes Team finally set me straight on this one, it turns out (as I'm sure many of you already knew the answer), that the Ninja V is the only recorder in the Atomos lineup that can record ProRes RAW over HDMI. Ahahahah, I figured it was something obvious that I was missing!

Newbie, HDR-shooting-wannabee, myself, I just figured all flavors of ProRes had been transportable over HDMI all along! Not so, apparently ProRes RAW over HDMI is a relatively new thing from back in 2018...

Firmware Update To Output RAW over HDMI? Is that even remotely possible??? - Cameras - EOSHD Forum

 

...I'll suggest to the manufacturers involved that they assume that a fair amount of their target customers are not following along on the latest tech developments and that what might seem obvious to those doing this on a regular basis is not made clear anywhere in the advertising...be it Atomos, Panasonic or Apple. 

So, again, to my comments in the GH6 thread about needing to make the camera gear more consumer-friendly, communication of, er, "obvious facts" should not be assumed but broadcast boldly.

And (if any of the manufacturers have agents here reading these forums) compatibility should be clearly displayed...as of this posting Atomos still does not list S1, GH5s, G9 on their Ninja V compatibility page nor, of the cameras listed, do they differentiate between those that can record non-RAW ProRes only and those that can record ProRes RAW or the ones that record ProRes RAW over SDI vs HDMI. The same holds true for Apple on their ProRes compatibility page (where my confusion began)...there is clearly a world of difference between a ProRes RAW over SDI and ProRes RAW over HDMI recorder and their list should denote that difference boldly, too. And Panasonic is not off the hook here either, IMHO, as they should boldly state those very same (SDI, HDMI) RAW recording differences for their products. I'm not sure how many other consumers would bother chasing down the proper smart shopping answers  or will just look at this section of the market and walk away either discouraged or confused or just saying, "too complicated, not for me."?

Hint: Internal RAW recording on your next FW and models, Panasonic, etal manufacturers.

“Simplify, Simplify, Simplify” - Henry David Thoreau

🙂

jim

[Lux Shots]

14 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

OK, so I downloaded and watched. It is hard to say a particular scene has a difference in quality, but it sure seems softer when you punch in. So a scene might start wide but when it is zoomed in / cropped in, it seems softer.

Am I missing something??? I don't have the best eyesight.

If you look at the quality at 1:30 and the quality at 1:36 when there is slo-mo, you will see the quality noticeably degrade. 

[Lux Shots]

4 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

Hi Lux Shots,

My quick list based on IQ only...

opening car sequence (also strange phasing going on with wheel rims in the slo-mo, also purple fringing in headlights)

00:00:48:15, 01:07:18, 01:36:13

final shot

...all have lesser sharpness pretty much in agreement with Mark Romero 2's comments below. However, the shots I've listed look to have been shot with a longer lens than the rest (short tele vs. wide angle) vs. being punch-ins, there is clearly a punch-in at 00:01:48:11.

I'd suspect the long shot lens to be of lesser quality than your WA and may be contributing to the sharpness loss, thoughts?

If there are other subtle differences based on HEVC my eye is not familiar enough to pick them out (been shooting various 8-bit internal Picture Profiles, thus far), so (in case I've "missed it") I'd be curious to hear what you're seeing?

In the context of a music video (where often one sees mixed media being used throughout) the IQ changes are, (again) to my eyes and sensibilities, both ignorable and maybe expected. However if that's not what you were trying to convey, then, yes, the IQ differences could be problematic with either you or the client...all IMHO.

Nicely done...definitely beyond my skill set and the camera output (as I expected from shooting my S1's) was tops. Thanks for sharing for review and comment! 🙂

Jim

The slo-mo purple fringing thing is because I pushed slo-mo in post to match the beat. It was a creative decision that was not planned in the pre-production. The video was shot with two lenses. The Panasonic 24-105 f/4 (fantastic lens!) and the Canon 50mm f/1.8. The Canon was not initially planned to be used as the night scenes were meant to be lit, but it became a safety concern with the wet snow, so we only used a battery LED Fresnel on the last shot.

If you look at the scene from 1:30, you can clearly see the image degrades at 1:36, which you have correctly noted! This is the best example of an identical scene, identical lighting, with just a change in aperture to account for the fps increase. The seemingly longer lens is mostly from the 4K 60p S35 crop.

I also forgot the the last shot of the video, which reminded me that anywhere there was a slo-mo shot, the camera is switched to 4K 60p H.265 4:2:0 S35 instead of 4K 23.976p H.264 4:2:2 FF.

Good eye Jimmy!

[TheBoogieKnight]

Is there anything stopping a company just adding compressed RAW recording into a battery grip.

[newfoundmass]

23 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I would rather wait for compressed internal RAW then have to use a external recorder on a mirrorless camera. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of using a smaller camera in the fist place.

Really surprised they didn’t put something faster than SD in the S1H. Kinda of a cripple move when the S1/S1R has CFX. They could have at least down some form of RAW for the camera. 

I think they went the SD route because there was some complaints about not having dual SD for the S1. I also think the S1H was targeted towards an audience that wasn't too keen on spending 50-100% more on new storage. 

I agree though re: external raw. I'm glad it exists but it's probably not something I'd use often. 

[Jimmy G]

21 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

The slo-mo purple fringing thing is because I pushed slo-mo in post to match the beat. It was a creative decision that was not planned in the pre-production. The video was shot with two lenses. The Panasonic 24-105 f/4 (fantastic lens!) and the Canon 50mm f/1.8. The Canon was not initially planned to be used as the night scenes were meant to be lit, but it became a safety concern with the wet snow, so we only used a battery LED Fresnel on the last shot.

If you look at the scene from 1:30, you can clearly see the image degrades at 1:36, which you have correctly noted! This is the best example of an identical scene, identical lighting, with just a change in aperture to account for the fps increase. The seemingly longer lens is mostly from the 4K 60p S35 crop.

I also forgot the the last shot of the video, which reminded me that anywhere there was a slo-mo shot, the camera is switched to 4K 60p H.265 4:2:0 S35 instead of 4K 23.976p H.264 4:2:2 FF.

Good eye Jimmy!

Hi Lux Shots,

Well, what I got out of your video and your comments is that I really should take a closer look at how my glass behaves/performs in crop mode versus FF IQ-wise. I knew that my video imaging at long-focal lengths (Sigma 150-600MM C for distant birds) clearly took a hit and looked different whether I was shooting crop (for the 4K 60P slo-mo) or FF but sort of just accepted the trade-off as, "well, this is the best they can offer right now". I'll certainly be an advocate for FF 4K 60P and FF 4K 120P, going forward! 😄

A technical question, while going over your footage frame-by-frame I noticed in the final shot (a snowfall scene) that the dash streaks caused by the falling snowflakes were continuous from frame to frame versus being spaced dashes frame-to-frame like everywhere else in the video...which led me to think that maybe you were using a 360° shutter angle for that final shot vs. 180° shutter angle for the rest? I ask as I haven't yet figured out how to best improve my own attempts a shooting video in either snow or rain.

Also, to stay on topic, I'd be curious as to your ISO choices for the S1 in low light environment shots.

Jim

[Jimmy G]

20 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I think they went the SD route because there was some complaints about not having dual SD for the S1. I also think the S1H was targeted towards an audience that wasn't too keen on spending 50-100% more on new storage. 

I agree though re: external raw. I'm glad it exists but it's probably not something I'd use often. 

My take was bit contrary...methinks the S1H was originally slated for dual-XQD/CFExpress card slots and that the, er, "Pro" community got to Panasonic's S1-series design team and had them nix that idea instead advocating for robust external recording abilities.

Methinks, also, that Panasonic likely then found themselves in a bit of a marketing quandary as the S1/R were likely designed to take advantage of those high-speed slots at some point down the road but doing so would cause a "world of hurt" and the ensuing complaints with the SD-only S1H crowd thinking that they somehow got gipped...which happened anyways! LOL!

IMHO, Panasonic needs to stop taking recommendations from the, er, "Pro" community on their feature plans for their indie/wedding/event class "pro"sumer cameras. Methinks the, er, "Pro" video voices screwed the GH5S out of getting IBIS, methinks the, er, "Pro" photographer voices screwed the S1/R out of getting a full tilt-swivel rear display, and methinks that the, er, "Pro" video crowd screwed the S1/R from getting higher in-camera bit-rate video functionality over XQD/CFExpress.

Er, "Pros" are, er, "Pros" and indies are indies. Different markets, different needs...different cameras, IMHO. 😉

Jim

[Lux Shots]

2 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

Hi Lux Shots,

Well, what I got out of your video and your comments is that I really should take a closer look at how my glass behaves/performs in crop mode versus FF IQ-wise. I knew that my video imaging at long-focal lengths (Sigma 150-600MM C for distant birds) clearly took a hit and looked different whether I was shooting crop (for the 4K 60P slo-mo) or FF but sort of just accepted the trade-off as, "well, this is the best they can offer right now". I'll certainly be an advocate for FF 4K 60P and FF 4K 120P, going forward! 😄

A technical question, while going over your footage frame-by-frame I noticed in the final shot (a snowfall scene) that the dash streaks caused by the falling snowflakes were continuous from frame to frame versus being spaced dashes frame-to-frame like everywhere else in the video...which led me to think that maybe you were using a 360° shutter angle for that final shot vs. 180° shutter angle for the rest? I ask as I haven't yet figured out how to best improve my own attempts a shooting video in either snow or rain.

Also, to stay on topic, I'd be curious as to your ISO choices for the S1 in low light environment shots.

Jim

I don't remember what angle the S1H was set to for that particular shot. I have long since trashed the original files as this was my second and last music video, as the only thing that pisses me off more than a bridal diva is a creative diva who can't get 10,000 free soundcloud streams  😁. It may be okay for some to make a $1000 in a day, but I make that in a few hours for corporate work with dedicated creative directors and set creators setting up the look just the way they desire. All I have to do is create pristine video and sound. With indie music videos, you need to do everything.

I think I wouldn't have a problem using ISO-10000 with H.264 with my S1 or S1H. I once pushed to ISO-16000, but that needed post noise reduction, and I wish I would have just jacked up internal noise reduction instead of having to clean up a 20 min of reception speeches in post.