Firmware update turns Panasonic S1 into an S1H (albeit with record-time limit in demanding modes like 6K)

[HockeyFan12]

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

No,...I'm saying the S1 does a 5.9k sensor readout, every day, all day long. 5.9k full width read window is it's normal every day scan. So, the "sensor" does 5.9k with no thermal problems. It always has from day one, even when saving 4k files, the sensor reads at 5.9k. The file saved is oversampled 4k from a 5.9k readout.

The new firmware takes that same 5.9k sensor readout and instead of saving that file to 4k, it will now saves in to a 5.9k file and places a 15 min cap on it.

The 5.9k readout, 5.9k image processing and 5.9k raw out to HDMI continues with no time limit or thermal issues after the 5.9k internal file ends.

Im 99.99% certain this 15min limit is only a firmware cripple to protect the S1H

What's your source on this?

I have noticed that, while shooting 51,200 ISO, the LCD will go from being very noisy to relatively clean once I hit record and I can't imagine any other reason than it changing readout modes.

4K also has a slightly different feel to it than 6K to me, but I could be imagining things. It might be the different codec. Still, 4k is noisier and I've seen other tests online that corroborate that. Also the rolling shutter is different (higher) in 5.9k than 4k on the S1H, and the "per pixel" modes on the S1H imply the other modes aren't.

Also the S1H body isn't much larger, but it is larger and I think it has a fan inside it that the S1 lacks, not sure about that though.

It might be intentionally crippled but I don't think the sensor is doing full read out all the time. In fact I think 5D2 video first started when engineers noticed they could just capture the low res live view readout and record it. The 5D2 definitely was not doing 30fps 5k readout all the time in live view.

[Jimmy G]

Here's a nice read on how CMOS sensors function and how they can be selectively controlled at the pixel level...

Architecture of CMOS Image Sensors - Focal Plane

https://www.astronomyclub.xyz/focal-plane/architecture-of-cmos-image-sensors.html

 

...note "Figure 3. Different scanning schemes available in CMOS sensors."...

 

Also, Panasonic specifically states that their CMOS DFD functions at 480fps (480Hz) and, again, I've got to believe that they're subclocking their subsampled 5.76MP EVF/ 2.1MP Rear Display readouts to the 120/60fps and 60/30fps respectively. Again, more system energy efficient. From here...

LUMIX_AF_Guidebook_S1R_S1_S5_version03.pdf

https://www.panasonic.com/content/dam/Panasonic/Global/Learn-More/lumix-af-guidebook/LUMIX_AF_Guidebook_S1R_S1_S5_version03.pdf

🙂

Jim

[SlanderShot]

So now that the S1 is closer to the S1H, as a S1H user i'm wondering what kind of major update we're expecting to highlight a real difference between S1 and S1H ?

I'd go with something like: 4k@120 fps, probably only in 420 8bits internal and 422 10 bits external.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, SlanderShot said:

So now that the S1 is closer to the S1H, as a S1H user i'm wondering what kind of major update we're expecting to highlight a real difference between S1 and S1H ?

I'd go with something like: 4k@120 fps, probably only in 420 8bits internal and 422 10 bits external.

 

I'm not expecting one and quite frankly, I'm not bothered even if there is another or not.

If anything, I wouldn't kick a further video AF update, but otherwise is what it is.

[Jimmy G]

3 hours ago, SlanderShot said:

I'd go with something like: 4k@120 fps, probably only in 420 8bits internal and 422 10 bits external.

...I'd be "in" with that, as long as it records with audio, too! :)

[Lux Shots]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:35 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

What's your source on this?

I have noticed that, while shooting 51,200 ISO, the LCD will go from being very noisy to relatively clean once I hit record and I can't imagine any other reason than it changing readout modes.

4K also has a slightly different feel to it than 6K to me, but I could be imagining things. It might be the different codec. Still, 4k is noisier and I've seen other tests online that corroborate that. Also the rolling shutter is different (higher) in 5.9k than 4k on the S1H, and the "per pixel" modes on the S1H imply the other modes aren't.

Also the S1H body isn't much larger, but it is larger and I think it has a fan inside it that the S1 lacks, not sure about that though.

It might be intentionally crippled but I don't think the sensor is doing full read out all the time. In fact I think 5D2 video first started when engineers noticed they could just capture the low res live view readout and record it. The 5D2 definitely was not doing 30fps 5k readout all the time in live view.

Everyone has always known the S5/S1/S1H take the full sensor and down-sample to 4K. The S1R is the only one of the bunch that does line skipping. That different feel from 4K is because it is recorded in H.264 while the 5.9K is in H.265. The only source I have is the over year old dpreview.com review articles on the S1 and S1R, and that I own the S1 and S1H.

And yes, my S1H has a fan.

4K is not noisier in my test. What you are seeing is more captured detail because the H.265 codec has a much softer image and is only 4:2:0 instead of the H.264 4:2:2. 

I recorded a music video for a client that had a mixture of 4K 24p H.264 and 4K 60p H.265 captures. I though I missed a focus pull or that something was wrong with my S1H when I looked at the clips side by side in the edit. The 4K 60p is so much softer, but if the whole video was shot in H.265, I might have missed it.

[HockeyFan12]

6 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

Everyone has always known the S5/S1/S1H take the full sensor and down-sample to 4K.

What's your source on this? If this is what's happening why is there less rolling shutter in 4K than in 5.9k?

[Lux Shots]

53 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

What's your source on this? If this is what's happening why is there less rolling shutter in 4K than in 5.9k?

I do not know why there is higher rolling shutter on 5.9K. Maybe it has to do with processing is software based vs hardware based, I really don't know.

This DPReview article states so at the very top bullet in on the linked page that the 4K image is from an Oversampled full sensor. Panasonic marketers stated this in a YouTube video. that the S1R did line skipping, and that is why the 4K footage is not as sharp as the S1/S1H footage.

[TheBoogieKnight]

16 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

I do not know why there is higher rolling shutter on 5.9K. Maybe it has to do with processing is software based vs hardware based, I really don't know.

This DPReview article states so at the very top bullet in on the linked page that the 4K image is from an Oversampled full sensor. Panasonic marketers stated this in a YouTube video. that the S1R did line skipping, and that is why the 4K footage is not as sharp as the S1/S1H footage.

How do you find the 4k/24, 6k and 4k/60 compare in post after editing. Can you get them to look pretty much the same once you edit sharpening etc.?

[Mark Romero 2]

On 3/23/2021 at 2:41 AM, Lux Shots said:

I recorded a music video for a client that had a mixture of 4K 24p H.264 and 4K 60p H.265 captures. I though I missed a focus pull or that something was wrong with my S1H when I looked at the clips side by side in the edit. The 4K 60p is so much softer, but if the whole video was shot in H.265, I might have missed it.

Would love to see the video.

[TomTheDP]

44 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Would love to see the video.

Yeah and 6k 24p H265 is probably a different beast than 4k 60p

[Jimmy G]

Just got an email from Panasonic that they're live-streaming about the upcoming firmware updates tomorrow (the 25th) at 2 p.m. EDT on their LUMIX Cameras YT channel, host Sean Robinson, guest Matt Frazer, here's the link...

LUMIX Live : The S Series Firmware - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWwMrA3ILbg

...my question will be, "Ninja V only? No love for the Atomos Shogun 7 or Sumo 19 or Neons with ProRes RAW from the S1, etc.?" (I've been chasing down rabbit holes for several days now with Atomos, Panasonic and Apple for an answer on this! I'm hard-pressed to believe that ProRes is so finicky that it will only work with specific combinations of cameras and recorders?! Oofah!)

[Lux Shots]

On 3/24/2021 at 12:33 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

Would love to see the video.

https://luxshots.dynu.net:443/video/sharelink?aid=EdRbko

Password NOLIES

[Lux Shots]

The other link is trash. Best to download the file instead of playing it, as my upload bandwidth is severely limited. Let's see if you can tell where the quality takes a dump, and that is where I went from shooting from H.264 to H.265.

https://www.myqnapcloud.com/smartshare/6g774717np2m262q22u220y2_6CkDTsX

Password: NOLIES

 

[Mark Romero 2]

1 hour ago, Lux Shots said:

The other link is trash. Best to download the file instead of playing it, as my upload bandwidth is severely limited. Let's see if you can tell where the quality takes a dump, and that is where I went from shooting from H.264 to H.265.

https://www.myqnapcloud.com/smartshare/6g774717np2m262q22u220y2_6CkDTsX

Password: NOLIES

 

Thanks!!! Gonna download it overnight because AT&T bandwidth is VERY slow!!!

[Lux Shots]

2 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thanks!!! Gonna download it overnight because AT&T bandwidth is VERY slow!!!

Link is valid for 72 hours, and the file size is 700MB. Music video has a NSFW due to language.

[MrSMW]

Well my new (used but like new) S1H arrived today.

Pleasantly surprised because it is neither as big nor as heavy as I was expecting.

In fact, I'd say in the hands, in terms of size, weight and ergos, it's just about perfect.

I look forward to testing it this weekend ahead of next week's small commercial/marketing job.

[Jimmy G]

11 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

https://luxshots.dynu.net:443/video/sharelink?aid=EdRbko

Password NOLIES

Hi Lux Shots,

This page does not load in FF or Safari (Can't find server), however, your second post/link does work and I've downloaded the file for later viewing. Thanks for taking the time to put that together and share it here! :)

Jim

[Jimmy G]

Just a followup to my earlier post regarding "Ninja V-only for S1 ProRes RAW", Panasonic Rep Sean Robinson kindly responded to my question at the above posted YT link to confirm that status as accurate.

Also, I've got pending correspondence out with the folks at Apple regarding what it is with ProRes RAW that the S1 will not work with the other Atomos  ProRes RAW-compatible recorders (Neons, Sumo, Shogun 7, etc.) as listed on their official ProRes/ProRes RAW compatibility page [link] ...I'm suspecting I'm missing something obvious here. Non-RAW ProRes apparently will work across any recording device with a "clean HDMI" signal, but the RAW version seems to be camera/recorder specific? I'll report back what I learn.

Also, Atomos did take my inquiries for Shogun 7, etc. ProRes RAW functionality and said it would be considered as a future feature request.

:) Jim

[Jimmy G]

Hrm, 😕 , couldn't edit my above post...

"Non-RAW ProRes apparently will work across any recording device with a "clean HDMI" signal" should read, "Non-RAW ProRes apparently will work across any ProRes-capable recording device with a "clean HDMI" signal". 🙂