Firmware update turns Panasonic S1 into an S1H (albeit with record-time limit in demanding modes like 6K)

[Lux Shots]

23 hours ago, TheBoogieKnight said:

Is there anything stopping a company just adding compressed RAW recording into a battery grip.

It all depends on how the RED patent was written. As long as the grip simply accepted HDMI port signals, I think that would be possible.

[MicahMahaffey]

3 days to go! 

[PannySVHS]

1 hour ago, MicahMahaffey said:

3 days to go! 

Would have loved a 10bit 422 update for 50/60p for the S series. Too bad its just 420. But still, awesome update.

[Jimmy G]

3 hours ago, MicahMahaffey said:

3 days to go! 

I've been debating whether acquiring a Ninja V to experiment with what VLOG/ProRes RAW might offer over the internal VLOG options for HDR.

I was a bit disappointed in finding out through my inquiries this past week that the only option to record ProRes RAW is with the Ninja V...is this all this much in it's infancy that there exists no other market choices?!

I was also disappointed after watching last week's LUMIX YT presentation to learn that Panasonic still had nothing to say regarding piping the RAW data packets over the internal PCIe bus to the internal CFExpress cards and will instead continue to only make that data dump available through the HDMI pipeline to external recorders. There was a fair amount of talk inferring thermal capacity of the S1 body as a limitation but what still does not add up to me is that they state (on one hand) that the heat is generated by the internal processing done before sending data to their cards for their internal codecs, but did not satisfactorily (to my viewing and listening) reconcile (as they stated on the other hand) that packet-izing the RAW data requires no internal image processing (so less heat), only sensor data transport? So, simply put, packetizing the RAW data generates less internal heat than that caused by the internal image processing that is sent to the internal cards.

Sooo, if internal codec recording times are dictated by...

1. Sensor image processing heat + writing to card heat = 15 minutes, why is it if...

2. 0 sensor image processing heat only RAW packetizing + HDMI piping = unlimited record time, and...

3. Sensor image processing heat + HDMI piping = unlimited record time, that...

4. 0 sensor image processing heat only RAW packetizing + writing to card heat ≠ at least 15 minutes?

By what the Panasonic reps stated, scenario 4 should generate less internal heat than scenario 1, so why not allow the RAW data packets (with time limits, if that needs to be so) that fit the S1's thermal design...i.e. 15-minutes, or whatever it works out to (they have the thermal numbers)?

My point, all along (and I will not tire from this), I'd prefer to be focused on shooting the bird and frog, etc. activities (that actually require my attention!) while I'm out in the field rather than fiddling around with a recorder and settings and connections and snag points and added weight whilst missing vital irreproducible action, I can fiddle with the RAW data to my heart's content in FCPX when I get home.

And I'm sure I am not alone in wishing to be able to record RAW internally (just like all the other codecs) without the fuss and muss of extraneous gear. 🙂

-Jim

[Stab]

Yea its most probably very possible. But no way they're giving the 'cheap hybrid model' internal raw, which their 'flagship video model' cannot. 

S2h might do that. 

[MicahMahaffey]

10 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

I've been debating whether acquiring a Ninja V to experiment with what VLOG/ProRes RAW might offer over the internal VLOG options for HDR.

I was a bit disappointed in finding out through my inquiries this past week that the only option to record ProRes RAW is with the Ninja V...is this all this much in it's infancy that there exists no other market choices?!

I was also disappointed after watching last week's LUMIX YT presentation to learn that Panasonic still had nothing to say regarding piping the RAW data packets over the internal PCIe bus to the internal CFExpress cards and will instead continue to only make that data dump available through the HDMI pipeline to external recorders. There was a fair amount of talk inferring thermal capacity of the S1 body as a limitation but what still does not add up to me is that they state (on one hand) that the heat is generated by the internal processing done before sending data to their cards for their internal codecs, but did not satisfactorily (to my viewing and listening) reconcile (as they stated on the other hand) that packet-izing the RAW data requires no internal image processing (so less heat), only sensor data transport? So, simply put, packetizing the RAW data generates less internal heat than that caused by the internal image processing that is sent to the internal cards.

Sooo, if internal codec recording times are dictated by...

1. Sensor image processing heat + writing to card heat = 15 minutes, why is it if...

2. 0 sensor image processing heat only RAW packetizing + HDMI piping = unlimited record time, and...

3. Sensor image processing heat + HDMI piping = unlimited record time, that...

4. 0 sensor image processing heat only RAW packetizing + writing to card heat ≠ at least 15 minutes?

By what the Panasonic reps stated, scenario 4 should generate less internal heat than scenario 1, so why not allow the RAW data packets (with time limits, if that needs to be so) that fit the S1's thermal design...i.e. 15-minutes, or whatever it works out to (they have the thermal numbers)?

My point, all along (and I will not tire from this), I'd prefer to be focused on shooting the bird and frog, etc. activities (that actually require my attention!) while I'm out in the field rather than fiddling around with a recorder and settings and connections and snag points and added weight whilst missing vital irreproducible action, I can fiddle with the RAW data to my heart's content in FCPX when I get home.

And I'm sure I am not alone in wishing to be able to record RAW internally (just like all the other codecs) without the fuss and muss of extraneous gear. 🙂

-Jim

Very interesting point.. I never thought about this before and you actually make a great point! 

The S1 should totally be capable of RAW internally. But they obviously wont do that because the s1h cant 😞

 

hey, maybe its time for a magic lantern style hack?? Hmmmm? 

[Jimmy G]

On 4/4/2021 at 3:10 AM, MicahMahaffey said:

Very interesting point.. I never thought about this before and you actually make a great point! 

The S1 should totally be capable of RAW internally. But they obviously wont do that because the s1h cant 😞

 

hey, maybe its time for a magic lantern style hack?? Hmmmm? 

Hi Micah,

Well, if there are any Panasonic camera hackers out there looking into this I'd certainly be interested to see what they might have come up with for possible solutions. In the meantime it's all "pipe dreams" and prodding Panasonic and Apple to bring the best-of-what-they've-got to the masses.

When I consider the development time for products like the S-Series I've got to believe that Panasonic and Apple had been working together for some time and that ProRes RAW was a consideration in the design and capabilities of these cameras long before the public was ever even aware that it would "be a thing". My suspicions remain that there was more-of-a-future planned for the XQD-now-CFExpress B card slot than what we see today.

In doing my research into all of this ProRes RAW business and whether it was the right-time-for-me I ran into this informative write-up my NewsShooter columnist, Matthew Allard ASC, regarding the implementation of ProRes RAW on the S1H...

Panasonic S1H & Atomos Ninja V ProRes RAW Recording First Impressions - Newsshooter

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/05/20/panasonic-s1h-atomos-ninja-v-prores-raw-recording-first-impressions/

...and I agree with his sentiments in his final thoughts section after referencing the then-impending Canon cameras arriving with internal RAW recording abilities...

<<

I’m personally not a big fan of external recorders. Sure, they were great back in the day when internal codecs weren’t so good, but today so many cameras have good on-board recording capabilities. In 2020, using an external recorder on a camera such a the S1H seems counter-intuitive. However, if you are looking for that bit of extra quality then it is worth using.

>>

...though, in seeing how many more cameras are hitting the market with internal RAW since he wrote that, I disagree with his last sentence.

So, why not thermally-time-limited internal ProRes RAW data packet dumps to CFExpress on the S-Series, Panasonic?

That is all, 🙂

Jim

[omega1978]

Has anyone have success to record trigger the Ninja V with S1 ?

 

[Parker]

22 minutes ago, omega1978 said:

Has anyone have success to record trigger the Ninja V with S1 ?

Is the pro Res raw update for S1 support on the ninja v even out? I don't think Átomos has updated it yet. 

[HockeyFan12]

Has anyone noticed a shift in color? The S5 footage seems a bit less magenta (in a good way) than S1 footage. Has Panasonic matched the S5 with the new 2.0 firmware update?

[omega1978]

54 minutes ago, Parker said:

Is the pro Res raw update for S1 support on the ninja v even out? I don't think Átomos has updated it yet. 

yes, with firmware 10.63

[Parker]

@omega1978ooh 😎 awesome news, I didn't know! Very excited to play with it 

[Stab]

On 4/6/2021 at 6:58 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

Has anyone noticed a shift in color? The S5 footage seems a bit less magenta (in a good way) than S1 footage. Has Panasonic matched the S5 with the new 2.0 firmware update?

In which profile? V-LOG as well?

[HockeyFan12]

17 minutes ago, Stab said:

In which profile? V-LOG as well?

I've only used the S1 and S1H (and EVA1), but I remember someone posted a comparison of the S1 and S5 and V Log was more green on the S5.

Which is good, the EVA1 has better color than the S1 in part because it's lacking such a strong magenta tint:

Of course, compared with Alexa footage, everything looks magenta!

[Lux Shots]

On 4/6/2021 at 7:32 AM, Jimmy G said:

Hi Micah,

Well, if there are any Panasonic camera hackers out there looking into this I'd certainly be interested to see what they might have come up with for possible solutions. In the meantime it's all "pipe dreams" and prodding Panasonic and Apple to bring the best-of-what-they've-got to the masses.

When I consider the development time for products like the S-Series I've got to believe that Panasonic and Apple had been working together for some time and that ProRes RAW was a consideration in the design and capabilities of these cameras long before the public was ever even aware that it would "be a thing". My suspicions remain that there was more-of-a-future planned for the XQD-now-CFExpress B card slot than what we see today.

In doing my research into all of this ProRes RAW business and whether it was the right-time-for-me I ran into this informative write-up my NewsShooter columnist, Matthew Allard ASC, regarding the implementation of ProRes RAW on the S1H...

Panasonic S1H & Atomos Ninja V ProRes RAW Recording First Impressions - Newsshooter

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/05/20/panasonic-s1h-atomos-ninja-v-prores-raw-recording-first-impressions/

...and I agree with his sentiments in his final thoughts section after referencing the then-impending Canon cameras arriving with internal RAW recording abilities...

<<

I’m personally not a big fan of external recorders. Sure, they were great back in the day when internal codecs weren’t so good, but today so many cameras have good on-board recording capabilities. In 2020, using an external recorder on a camera such a the S1H seems counter-intuitive. However, if you are looking for that bit of extra quality then it is worth using.

>>

...though, in seeing how many more cameras are hitting the market with internal RAW since he wrote that, I disagree with his last sentence.

So, why not thermally-time-limited internal ProRes RAW data packet dumps to CFExpress on the S-Series, Panasonic?

That is all, 🙂

Jim

It's quite simple actually:

1. Pay no attention to marketers. They have no idea what the fuck they are talking about, and try to sound just engineeringly-intelligent enough to get people to stop questioning the company's position.
2. RED Patents will not allow internal RAW, unless Panasonic gets into a licensing agreement with RED, as Canon may have done. This is all the more probable when looking at the RED Komodo having an RF Mount.

[BjornT]

On 4/6/2021 at 6:58 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

Has anyone noticed a shift in color? The S5 footage seems a bit less magenta (in a good way) than S1 footage. Has Panasonic matched the S5 with the new 2.0 firmware update?

I did a quick test yesterday and the S5 is still a little bit brighter and less magenta (both cams on latest firmwares, same settings and same lens with the clips being taken less than 60 seconds apart). However I feel the S1 was maybe a little bit less magenta than last time I did this so maybe they bridged the gap a little. In resolve if you take the offset up one step from 25 to 26 and add 2 points of green with the tint control (on the S1) then it was almost a perfect match so not much work needed to match at least. Another way to take care of it in camera would be to add some green in the kelvin settings and that pretty much takes care of the magenta bias as well.

[omega1978]

Test the 6K mode internal, with ACES color workflow. Resolve let me only render 4K, Gpu has not enough RAM 😏

 

[Jimmy G]

On 4/6/2021 at 12:22 PM, Parker said:

Is the pro Res raw update for S1 support on the ninja v even out? I don't think Átomos has updated it yet. 

 

On 4/6/2021 at 1:17 PM, omega1978 said:

yes, with firmware 10.63

Thanks for that info, Parker & omega1978, I'd written to Atomos earlier this week with this very question and you've both beaten them to the punch on an answer! :D

[Jimmy G]

On 4/8/2021 at 3:54 AM, Lux Shots said:

It's quite simple actually:

1. Pay no attention to marketers. They have no idea what the fuck they are talking about, and try to sound just engineeringly-intelligent enough to get people to stop questioning the company's position.
2. RED Patents will not allow internal RAW, unless Panasonic gets into a licensing agreement with RED, as Canon may have done. This is all the more probable when looking at the RED Komodo having an RF Mount.

Hi Lux Shots,

Staying in my lane as one of the "non-professional enthusiast users" in this thread...I agree with your first point that trying to glean any important technical nuggets out of, um, "corporate sales speech" is always a challenge.

However, as a "non-professional user with limited budget trying to and make the best purchasing decisions for my imaging, um, pastime", I need to rely on other sources for hand-on information to help me make a purchasing decision. Simply, I do not have the luxury of working in a production environment where I might earn some hands-on experience with RAW equipment and workflows (shooting-to-final edit), nor do I have the luxury of robust resources to layout ($$$) for rentals to try things out for myself. So, I do my best to work within "my means" to try and see if I can get/afford/or-otherwise-wrangle a way to get my Panasonic's "consumer camera" to provide me with the promises of its own advertisement!

To your second point regarding RED RAW...I've read lots of online words regarding this subject and, quite frankly, not having a legal/patent background, myself, I find I must apply the same "separating the wheat from the chaff" thinking to "online legal-opinion speech" as I do with "corporate sales speech". My question, "does anyone truly know how much of a, um, stranglehold the RED RAW patent actually has in constraining technological innovation for other manufacturers to come up with their own RAW or others to come up with an open-source RAW format?" Frankly, a lot of the discussion I've read on the matter smacks of "urban myth"...IMHO.

________________________

On to other S1 ProRes RAW matters...it's looking like consumer-grade 4K 120Hz HDR monitors are either non-existent and/or inadequate and/or way out of budget for the task (read: my needs) so I've been looking at LG OLED TV's to properly monitor (with some DCI-P3/REC.2020 color volume issues) any HDR grading. :)

-Jim

[TomTheDP]

3 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

Hi Lux Shots,

Staying in my lane as one of the "non-professional enthusiast users" in this thread...I agree with your first point that trying to glean any important technical nuggets out of, um, "corporate sales speech" is always a challenge.

However, as a "non-professional user with limited budget trying to and make the best purchasing decisions for my imaging, um, pastime", I need to rely on other sources for hand-on information to help me make a purchasing decision. Simply, I do not have the luxury of working in a production environment where I might earn some hands-on experience with RAW equipment and workflows (shooting-to-final edit), nor do I have the luxury of robust resources to layout ($$$) for rentals to try things out for myself. So, I do my best to work within "my means" to try and see if I can get/afford/or-otherwise-wrangle a way to get my Panasonic's "consumer camera" to provide me with the promises of its own advertisement!

To your second point regarding RED RAW...I've read lots of online words regarding this subject and, quite frankly, not having a legal/patent background, myself, I find I must apply the same "separating the wheat from the chaff" thinking to "online legal-opinion speech" as I do with "corporate sales speech". My question, "does anyone truly know how much of a, um, stranglehold the RED RAW patent actually has in constraining technological innovation for other manufacturers to come up with their own RAW or others to come up with an open-source RAW format?" Frankly, a lot of the discussion I've read on the matter smacks of "urban myth"...IMHO.

________________________

On to other S1 ProRes RAW matters...it's looking like consumer-grade 4K 120Hz HDR monitors are either non-existent and/or inadequate and/or way out of budget for the task (read: my needs) so I've been looking at LG OLED TV's to properly monitor (with some DCI-P3/REC.2020 color volume issues) any HDR grading. 🙂

-Jim

Any company can make a 12 bit codec like Blackmagic or Apple. What they can’t do is feature a compressed RAW like DNG. This is why Blackmagic and kinefinity removed CDNG from their cameras. Zcam developed a debayered “RAW” 12 bit codec rather than using DNG. Sigma uses DNG without compression. Zraw , BRAW, and PRR aren’t actually RAW tho