Firmware update turns Panasonic S1 into an S1H (albeit with record-time limit in demanding modes like 6K)

[Thpriest]

A quick question, does the S1 record 4k non stop with the new firmware? Or is it limited? 

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, Thpriest said:

A quick question, does the S1 record 4k non stop with the new firmware? Or is it limited? 

I thought it was always unlimited. But yes in 4k there is no record limit unless its 4k 60p where it's 30 mins. 

[Thpriest]

Anther question! For dual recording (4K 10 bit) are you all using CFExpress cards (looking at Sandisk Extreme) and a v90 SDor SDXC card? Or will a v30 170 MB/s SDXC do?

[TomTheDP]

2 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

Anther question! For dual recording (4K 10 bit) are you all using CFExpress cards (looking at Sandisk Extreme) and a v90 SDor SDXC card? Or will a v30 170 MB/s SDXC do?

I haven't used dual recording but for regular recording I use a Sandisk extreme 150MB/s V30 card. 

[Tim Sewell]

8 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

Anther question! For dual recording (4K 10 bit) are you all using CFExpress cards (looking at Sandisk Extreme) and a v90 SDor SDXC card? Or will a v30 170 MB/s SDXC do?

I'm using a Sandisk V30 170.

[Thpriest]

I alway use dual recording! It's good to know the V30 cards work. I'd have to buy a CfExpress card for 229€ but at least I wouldn't need to spend another 179€ on a V90 card. I'v got my eye on a good offer with the 24-105

 

[stephen]

On 7/20/2021 at 6:30 PM, TomTheDP said:

The only hindrance on the S1 is moire from the lack of anti aliasing filter. I'd also note the RAW to VLOG conversion is not giving the same colors as VLOG off the S1 internal files. 

Did you use the two LUTs provided by Panasonic for ProRes RAW conversion:

First one conversts RAW V-Log to V-Gamut V-Log

Second one from V-Gamut V-Log to Rec709

For internal recording in V-Log 10bit 4:2:2 you need to apply just the second one. But for correct ProRes RAW conversion both of them are needed.

[Thpriest]

How are you all dealing with the moire?

Promist filters?

[Thpriest]

And does the S1 now have the red box around the screen when recording?

[TomTheDP]

3 hours ago, Thpriest said:

How are you all dealing with the moire?

Promist filters?

Kinda thinking of buying a used S1H when I get the cash to avoid this issue. 

 

6 hours ago, stephen said:

Did you use the two LUTs provided by Panasonic for ProRes RAW conversion:

First one conversts RAW V-Log to V-Gamut V-Log

Second one from V-Gamut V-Log to Rec709

For internal recording in V-Log 10bit 4:2:2 you need to apply just the second one. But for correct ProRes RAW conversion both of them are needed.

Yeah they are applied automatically in FCP. After more testing I think the RAW conversion to vlog is pretty identical to the internal after some small adjustments. 

[stephen]

10 hours ago, Thpriest said:

How are you all dealing with the moire?

Promist filters?

Didn't shoot much with Panasonic S1 + BRAW to notice the moire / aliasing. IMHO it is mild.

Yes, using Black Pro Mist filter (1/8 in particular) will be probably first on my list. Or Black Satin 1. It has less halation than Black Pro Mist. Not a big fan of halation and prefer Tiffen Black Satin when shooting people. 

Will also try:

 - Shoot in 6K, then reduce resolution in post to 4K. It may help. Panasonic 4K 10bit 4:2:2 internal doesn't have this problem, so there must be a way to get rid of it when down scaling the image.
 - Use Gaussian Blur filter in post on the zones with moire / aliasing
 - Shoot at f2.8 when possible. Or even f4. Shooting people at open apertures deals with moire and aliasing quite effectively in my experience as most of the picture is not in focus anyway. On FF my preferences are to shoot at f4 or f2.8. So again f2.8 is not always possible and f4 may not cut it in terms of moire and aliasing. Manually pulling focus on FF camera at F2.8 may also be close to impossible in some situations.

[Tim Sewell]

8 hours ago, Thpriest said:

And does the S1 now have the red box around the screen when recording?

It does (if you switch it on). 

[TomTheDP]

8 hours ago, stephen said:

Didn't shoot much with Panasonic S1 + BRAW to notice the moire / aliasing. IMHO it is mild.

Yes, using Black Pro Mist filter (1/8 in particular) will be probably first on my list. Or Black Satin 1. It has less halation than Black Pro Mist. Not a big fan of halation and prefer Tiffen Black Satin when shooting people. 

Will also try:

 - Shoot in 6K, then reduce resolution in post to 4K. It may help. Panasonic 4K 10bit 4:2:2 internal doesn't have this problem, so there must be a way to get rid of it when down scaling the image.
 - Use Gaussian Blur filter in post on the zones with moire / aliasing
 - Shoot at f2.8 when possible. Or even f4. Shooting people at open apertures deals with moire and aliasing quite effectively in my experience as most of the picture is not in focus anyway. On FF my preferences are to shoot at f4 or f2.8. So again f2.8 is not always possible and f4 may not cut it in terms of moire and aliasing. Manually pulling focus on FF camera at F2.8 may also be close to impossible in some situations.

Can't downsample in 4k highspeed unfortunately. I do wonder if simply downsampling will reduce moire. I know I have heard to get a moire free image you need to downsample from a higher resolution, but I am not sure if there is more to it than that. I fondly remember the GH5 being completely moire free. 

[Parker]

8 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Can't downsample in 4k highspeed unfortunately. I do wonder if simply downsampling will reduce moire. I know I have heard to get a moire free image you need to downsample from a higher resolution, but I am not sure if there is more to it than that. I fondly remember the GH5 being completely moire free. 

Ehh, if you've got it in the image, it's pretty much there to stay. Here's an example I shot yesterday (pardon the dull framing and boring image, I had like 5 min to set this shot up and was running very close to a deadline) 

But this is a 6k image, downscaled to 4k, shot anamorphic, so already quite soft, plus additional filtration (hollywood blackmagic 1/4). But with all that, notice the speaker grill of the computer next to the talent. Moire City. It honestly doesn't bother me very much, i just wanted to point out that basically, if it shows up on camera, short of masking it out and fixing it it in photoshop, etc., it's probably still going to be in the final image. 

Edit: Looks like my framegrab is a bit darker than my in my edit software, it's much more noticeable there than shown here. 

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, Parker said:

Ehh, if you've got it in the image, it's pretty much there to stay. Here's an example I shot yesterday (pardon the dull framing and boring image, I had like 5 min to set this shot up and was running very close to a deadline) 

But this is a 6k image, downscaled to 4k, shot anamorphic, so already quite soft, plus additional filtration (hollywood blackmagic 1/4). But with all that, notice the speaker grill of the computer next to the talent. Moire City. It honestly doesn't bother me very much, i just wanted to point out that basically, if it shows up on camera, short of masking it out and fixing it it in photoshop, etc., it's probably still going to be in the final image. 

Edit: Looks like my framegrab is a bit darker than my in my edit software, it's much more noticeable there than shown here. 

Yeah I don't know about down sampling in post but I have heard getting say 4k from 6k is essential for getting an image without moire. I don't know if that is true or why or how it works. The GH5 didn't have an OLPF filter yet was free from any moire problems.

I really dislike moire but its often avoidable by simply reframing, though its not always possible especially with run and gun work.

[stephen]

If it is not easy to get rid of the moire then for commercial work and projects it would be better to get S1H and not waist time.