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The downfall of the big guys just began - BlackMagic 2.5K Cinema Camera with 12bit RAW for $3000

Andrew Reid

By Andrew Reid,
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RickToxik New member

RickToxik

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[quote author=biginvegas link=topic=596.msg4149#msg4149 date=1334673184]
It shoots RAW.  In my mind the only application for RAW is to grade for ... a cinema screen or a higher end commercial.[/quote]
yes it's a cinema camera or so they say!

[quote author=biginvegas link=topic=596.msg4149#msg4149 date=1334673184]
That means this camera is for indie filmmakers wanting to make a narrative low budget feature. How many  films does the average independent filmmaker make a year?  Even if you make one a year, that's a 3 week shoot.
[/quote]
The RED cameras, the next best (RAW) thing, rent starting at 600-700$ a day I think.

[quote author=biginvegas link=topic=596.msg4149#msg4149 date=1334673184]
For the doc feature filmmaker, in my opinion the biggest growing market for camera manufactures this camera seems to be unsuitable for even 1080 capture. It's internal battery system is baffling. [/quote]
The battery lasts 1.5h., and you can power up the camera with other (than original) 12-30V units.  Yeah well I believe RED's batteries are quite expensive too, and they don't last that long neither - I might be mistaken.

[quote author=biginvegas link=topic=596.msg4149#msg4149 date=1334673184]
This camera is for a production company with several DSLR's, an AF100 who need cheap fast 2K for grading in studio and green screen and occasionally rent lenses.
[/quote]
Exactly.  This camera imo is meant to be mounted on a rail, a crane or a solid tripod during a very well planned shooting day.  For the only reason that it does not pretend to eclipse the dslr, but rather to offer some competition to RED, SonyF3 and friends FOR the price of a DSLR!  It is definitly not an interview/vacation/timelapse camera I think.  It is aimed at filmmaking almost exclusively.
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pdc New member

pdc

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An interesting "first cut", and hopefully will generate income to cover future model development.  The sensor size is smart, the lens mount not.  They need to provide a mount with a very short flange to sensor distance, and a largish mount diameter.  That way, the MILC lenses (NEX, m43, NX, Xpro etc) can be adapted, as well as all the legacy SLR/DSLR glass.
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jlev23 Member

jlev23

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[quote author=biginvegas link=topic=596.msg4149#msg4149 date=1334673184]
Only for it's 2.5K RAW everything else in this iCam is a massive fail.  Ergonomics, battery power, compatible lens issues,  utilitarian use no.. for what or who exactly is this niche camera?  The original Scarlet 2K and a mighty still camera was to me the future for Pro's but obviously not at price for low budget indie filmmakers.  $3000 is some cash though and you need extras to make it adapt for even the most basic day shoot. It has no modularity all solid state, much like an Ipad  It will depreciate in value in 18 months, unlike a 5D or D800.  I am surprised Andrew you have a hard on for it or is just the fact that Black Magic just undercut the camera industry that makes it the sensation?  If Ikonoscope came in at this price I could see a win - for the price.  It shoots RAW.  In my mind the only application for RAW is to grade for ... a cinema screen or a higher end commercial. There are many option for commercials as they have huge budgets. 1080 for creative work to Vimeo/YT embed is so fine considering the camera options out there.  That means this camera is for indie filmmakers wanting to make a narrative low budget feature. How many  films does the average independent filmmaker make a year?  Even if you make one a year, that's a 3 week shoot. For the doc feature filmmaker, in my opinion the biggest growing market for camera manufactures this camera seems to be unsuitable for even 1080 capture. It's internal battery system is baffling. Over at no film school the admin created buzz for his choice of camera a year before shooting.  Making a feature is not about the camera.  Black Magic, Canon and web forums are tapping into 1st time filmmakers gullibility and telling them you have to have your 2K or 4K otherwise your film will be no good.  This camera is for a production company with several DSLR's, an AF100 who need cheap fast 2K for grading in studio and green screen and occasionally rent lenses.
[/quote]
a camera that shoots raw for $3000 a fail??? hahahaha...the only other option is a scarlet at 5-6 times the price.
i like that its made from people thinking about post production, thats usually where we start on a project, what format does post need to create and finish this project? they can finally give us a tool that answers all those questions.
what i dont like about his camera is that its the first one, now they just need it out there and get feedback from people actually doing the productions and shooting the projects. what we need in shooting films is some variable frame rates, 32fps, 36fps, 40fps, 48fps, something else besides 60p. i for one am axcited about the form factor, i like the slick streamline look too and its about time we had a onboard monitor built in that is big enough to see!
yes, this camera is not for consumers, not for documentaries, not for news or interviews of any kind. its for professionals or people moving up that want to make a film and have no problems in post with the footage. its also for lower end commercials, right now we have a 3 camera choice, epic, alexa and if they cant afford that then they actually write in the treatment "this is a 5d job"... so for the proce of a 5d we can have raw? wow!
what id like to see is what hold up better, compressed 4k from a 1DC, or raw 2.5k...this is going to be an interesting comparison, especially with the massive price difference...i think canon should think about adding clean hdmi to our 5dmk3s to be able to keep up with this price point!
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rommex Member

rommex

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I personally feel there have been so many wise decisions made during the development of this camera:

- 12bit RAW (awesome for post-grading)
- 2.5K (just the necessary premium over full HD needed to crop after stabilization / or after some "digital" zooming in)

The mount system and powering option does baffle me though. As well as Thunderbolt (does it mean my supercharged Sony Vaio with USB 3.0 / Firewire ports stands shamed? )

As the "soft-and-not-sharp" picture of the sample footage caused some people's dissappointment, in the same fashion it gave me the itching to post-grade it!! It does look like true c-log. It's gradeable!! Add an s-curve to increase the contrast in mid-tones, give it a scratch of sharpness -- and it will be [glow=red,2,300][b]golden[/b][/glow].

Somebody brought up the topic of possible LUTs for this cam. The post by John has probably an answer to this:

[quote]You can “shoot to edit” by simply shooting ProRes.  You can even choose a LOG or 709 version of prores.  If you really want to be able to take the files straight from the camera and use them straight away, you can ![/quote]

I understand that there is no perfect cam for everyone, and its positive points outweigh the frustrating ones by far. But as many other ones voiced it, if powering/hdmi/mounting issues are addressed, this could become... well... [i]perfect[/i]?

I can't wait to download some raw footage from it.

PS Andrew, thanks so much for your site.
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biginvegas Member

biginvegas

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a camera that shoots raw for $3000 a fail??? hahahaha...the only other option is a scarlet at 5-6 times the price. [i]99% of productions rent RED either from an owner or rental house. If you own any RE camera mostly you have some income from your work. not everyone but if you have any common sense.[/i]
i like that its made from people thinking about post production, thats usually where we start on a project, what format does post need to create and finish this project? they can finally give us a tool that answers all those questions.
what i dont like about his camera is that its the first one, now they just need it out there and get feedback from people actually doing the productions and shooting the projects. what we need in shooting films is some variable frame rates, 32fps, 36fps, 40fps, 48fps, something else besides 60p. i for one am axcited about the form factor, i like the slick streamline look too and its about time we had a onboard monitor built in that is big enough to see!
yes, this camera is not for consumers, not for documentaries, not for news or interviews of any kind.
[i][i]So documentaries are only about its interviewing people? How about a doc verite style 2k feature that needs authentic improv and scenarios out in the field away from a wall socket?[/i] [/i]for professionals or people moving up that want to make a film and have no problems in post with the footage.
[i]Who are these people moving up that will have no problems in post just beacuse you are shooting 2 1/2K , your problems in post are only beginning pal.[/i]
its also for lower end commercials, right now we have a 3 camera choice, epic, alexa and if they cant afford that then they actually write in the treatment "this is a 5d job"... so for the proce of a 5d we can have raw?
[i]Like I said if you have a production company it makes sense[/i] wow!
what id like to see is what hold up better, compressed 4k from a 1DC, or raw 2.5k...this is going to be an interesting comparison, especially with the massive price difference...i think canon should think about adding clean hdmi to our 5dmk3s to be able to keep up with this price point!
[/quote]
[i]it fails because it should have been a $3K 2K Ikonoscop  that I cannot afford [/i]
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jlev23 Member

jlev23

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yes, this camera is not for consumers, not for documentaries, not for news or interviews of any kind.
[i][i]So documentaries are only about its interviewing people? How about a doc verite style 2k feature that needs authentic improv and scenarios out in the field away from a wall socket?[/i]

WHO SAID I SAID DOCUMENTARIES WERE ONLY ABOUT INTERVIEWING PEOPLE???
if you take your time to read, i said its not for documentaries and its not for news or interviews... separate things.
and the statement is mostly based on the fact of the short battery life, then the fact that this raw form of files is meant for grading, i feel like news or interviews dont usually go through that process, so its not optimum for their work flow.
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Bruno Frequent member

Bruno

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If you just take a look at those 2 jpg stills you'll see this camera is in a completely different league than any DSLR.
And that's only a 1080p jpg, not the proper 2.5k raw file. Put a lin2log on them and you'll get an idea of what they have here.
Sensor size is being way overrated, beautiful films have been shot on 16mm, which is smaller than this, Avatar was shot on a smaller 2k sensor too.
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popalock Member

popalock

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There is only 1 real worry with this camera - lens compatibility/incompatibility.  We need to know which lenses will work & which wont since we all have our own inventory of lenses I'm sure we'll want to use with this camera.  I've some EF lenses (great, they'll work) but I've also a GH2 and am acquiring manual lenses for that.  Will these "vintage" lenses work or not?  that is the ONLY [i][b]important[/b][/i] question.  then there's anamorphic..

All this chat about documentary vs film, and batteries are minor points, and quite frankly BS
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