The downfall of the big guys just began - BlackMagic 2.5K Cinema Camera with 12bit RAW for $3000

[jlev23]

[quote author=popalock link=topic=596.msg4178#msg4178 date=1334686112]
There is only 1 real worry with this camera - lens compatibility/incompatibility.  We need to know which lenses will work & which wont since we all have our own inventory of lenses I'm sure we'll want to use with this camera.  I've some EF lenses (great, they'll work) but I've also a GH2 and am acquiring manual lenses for that.  Will these "vintage" lenses work or not?  that is the ONLY [i][b]important[/b][/i] question.  then there's anamorphic..

All this chat about documentary vs film, and batteries are minor points, and quite frankly BS
[/quote]
Being able to use a vintage lens is more important that having a camera powered and ready to go at an instant which is needed for documentary projects? and versus film, where the shots are more set up and generally youll have power on set to be able to use the ac adapter. thats why i think the battery obstacle will make a difference on docu vs film making.
the fact that it takes canon and nikon lenses should tell us which market they are going for, people that are already using canons and nikons! i could buy this camera and have almost everything i need to use it out of the box :)
still, the main thing i would have to see is if there is an advantage with raw 2.5k over compressed 4k(canon 1DC).
the raw might win, and i guess as much as the 1DC will be, i can get about 4 of these!

[garypayton]

If it's made for canon lenses, than it will accept various adapter (Nikon, Leica R, M42 olympus).

[jcs]

[quote author=cameraboy link=topic=596.msg4120#msg4120 date=1334654481]
after debayering RED  4K IS about 2.4k so we can expect 1.6K from BMD camera (not bad at all)
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/more_red_res_testing_the_mysteryium_resolved/
and all raw files look soft even RED EPIC (u need to add little sharpness)
and it looks like that they use Fairchild sCMOS Sensor(its only sensor that fits BMD camera size) ...wow its rated at 88db of dynamic range ...thats more than ALEXA...
http://www.scmos.com/
[/quote]

That's a cool test chart showing RED 4K using decent de-Bayering to get to 3.2K before detail extinction (IMO, easiest way to mark end of useful resolution. First artifacts perhaps start at 2.4K, but there's a lot more usable information beyond that). This is to be expected for a B&W image (luma), however chroma resolution is lower  (and shows quite a bit of artifacting, especially with NR turned off).

Thus, 4k/3.2k = 1.25. If BMD has an ultra-high quality de-Bayer algorithm (perhaps better than VNG (Variable Number of Gradients)), which can take a bit of time to process (though if can be implemented on a GPU (BMD is strong here (Resolve)), then 2.5k/1.25 = 2k, which would be perfect for 1920x1080. Would be great if BMD published a horizontal lines (resolution) spec (C300 and FS100 are rated at 1000+ lines (horizontal resolution)). 3840 using SuperPixel de-Bayering is best for HD (and also very fast), however 2.5k VNG or similar isn't a bad bang-for-the-buck. A resolution chart will give us a better idea for real-world performance.

[cameraboy]

i expect excellent debayer option  in resolve ....

[jcs]

[quote author=cameraboy link=topic=596.msg4188#msg4188 date=1334694708]
i expect excellent debayer option  in resolve ....
[/quote]

A resolution chart will let us know...

[cameraboy]

i just watch the hurt locker on blue ray ...
and BMD camera has a feel (latitude ,softnes ,organic look )of s16 mm but with better resolution ....
they choose great sensor ....

[ahowes83]

[quote author=popalock link=topic=596.msg4178#msg4178 date=1334686112]
There is only 1 real worry with this camera - lens compatibility/incompatibility.  We need to know which lenses will work & which wont since we all have our own inventory of lenses I'm sure we'll want to use with this camera.  I've some EF lenses (great, they'll work) but I've also a GH2 and am acquiring manual lenses for that.  Will these "vintage" lenses work or not?  that is the ONLY [i][b]important[/b][/i] question.  then there's anamorphic..

All this chat about documentary vs film, and batteries are minor points, and quite frankly BS
[/quote]

If it has an EF mount, then it's very easy to find out which lenses will work for it.  Just look up the wikipedia article on flange distances.  Off the top of my head, M42 and Nikon lenses will work, while FD lenses will not.  That's pretty far from the most important question, though, seriously. 

[TheJoker]

This is promising, however now this brings up a new dilemma for us gear freaks.... Canon 5D MK3 Or this BlackMagic 2.5k Cinema Camera 12bit Raw contraption-thingy-ma-jig :)

[P4INKiller]

[quote author=garypayton link=topic=596.msg4183#msg4183 date=1334689701]
If it's made for canon lenses, than it will accept various adapter (Nikon, Leica R, M42 olympus).
[/quote]
Not m43.

Having a Nokton on this would be magic.

[Roberto_M]

Rolling shutter (the guy is panning the camera during this screenshot, check out the lines in the display).

[johnbauerphoto]

[quote author=popalock link=topic=596.msg4178#msg4178 date=1334686112]
There is only 1 real worry with this camera - lens compatibility/incompatibility.  We need to know which lenses will work & which wont since we all have our own inventory of lenses I'm sure we'll want to use with this camera.  I've some EF lenses (great, they'll work) but I've also a GH2 and am acquiring manual lenses for that.  Will these "vintage" lenses work or not?  that is the ONLY [i][b]important[/b][/i] question.  then there's anamorphic..

All this chat about documentary vs film, and batteries are minor points, and quite frankly BS
[/quote]

I think he is totally right. This question is very very important imo.

The EF mount is great and most of us will probably have EF lenses but they are designed for full frame photography and so are their focal lengths. The 2.X crop factor might be a problem here. It is great because it will give you nice fast tele like lenses but on the standart to wide range it will give you problems.

What are your options for a fast 35mm or 50mm (equivalent) lens in the EF or Nikon line up? Even Canons widest fast prime the quite expensive 24mm 1.4 will become something like a 60mm...

And the second problem is that the EF mount is far from ideal for adapting lenses. There are lenses that would pair nicely with this sensor (m4/3 like the Voigländers (17 or 25mm f0.95 or the 12 1.6 Hyperprime) or even C-Mount lenses) but you can adapt these because of the flange focal distance...

An 4/3 mount would have made more sense on this camera imo. It gives you way more options and adapting EF glas wouldn't be a problem.

[Andrew Reid]

I have quite a bit of experience with EF lenses and 2x crop, with the GH2.

EF 85mm F1.2L becomes a super fast telephoto, the likes of which is virtually impossible without huge expensive optics on full frame. 35mm F2 EF works well as an all-purpose medium-close-up lens, with a lovely shallow depth of field. Samyang 35mm video DSLR version has de-clicked aperture ring for run & gun. 11-16mm Tokina F2.8 covers your wide angle stuff. 11mm will be roughly 24mm on it. It is a fantastic lens and hardly any distortion in the centre crop. It is designed for a 1.5x crop sensor.

That covers all the options really.

Yes it is a shame specialist stuff like LOMO OCT18 and rangefinder glass (also Nokton 25mm F0.95) won't adapt but you will still have a GH3 for that.

[popalock]

[quote]11-16mm Tokina F2.8 covers your wide angle stuff[/quote]

&

[quote]LOMO OCT18 and rangefinder glass (also Nokton 25mm F0.95) won't adapt but you will still have a GH3 for that[/quote]

EXACTLY!!!  for wider angle kiss goodbye to anything less than F2.8.  also this camera in its current state cannot be a replacement for the GH(X) series allowing you to shoot anamorphic & use lomo lenses.

I get the point that telephoto lenses with low F stops is a nice plus, but it misses the bigger point that there is a reason why 28, 35, 50 & 85mm lenses have been SO popular for 35mm format.  They are the best focal lengths (for 35mm), period.  The glass we use means everything to create "that" shot.  Without them, we're screwed, you have NO workaround.  Battery life, and ergonomics you can get around and still shoot what you want to.  But without the right focal length [size=14pt][b]& F stop[/b][/size], you're f**k'd

This BM camera is quite simply AMAZING - I have pre-ordered one.  But it nonetheless leaves a bitter taste because despite the company thinking so much about how to create the next generation of budget video cameras from a form & interface experience, they forgot about one of the fundamentals of photography/videography - options with regards to focal length and F stop.

Please can everyone bombard them complaining about this point.  If fixed, it'll change everything iPhone style. M43 makes so much sense here.  I'd happily give up autofocus & image stabilisation on my EF lenses if that's the choice.

[Andrew Reid]

[quote author=popalock link=topic=596.msg4245#msg4245 date=1334764374]
[quote]11-16mm Tokina F2.8 covers your wide angle stuff[/quote]

&

[quote]LOMO OCT18 and rangefinder glass (also Nokton 25mm F0.95) won't adapt but you will still have a GH3 for that[/quote]

EXACTLY!!!  for wider angle kiss goodbye to anything less than F2.8.  also this camera in its current state cannot be a replacement for the GH(X) series allowing you to shoot anamorphic & use lomo lenses.
[/quote]

You kiss goodbye to the full frame 24mm F1.4 look anyway on the GH2, this isn't much different. If you like the GH2 you will like the Blackmagic cam. Olympus 12mm F2 is a lovely lens but 12mm will never match 24mm for a shallow DOF.

This camera is good because it is bringing a genuinely new option into the hands of filmmakers without HUGE WADS OF CASH. $3000 for raw video!!

The sensor size just isn't a problem for 90% of shots. Shallow DOF and full frame is nice sure but it is majorly overrated.

Re: LOMOs and anamorphic. Actually the smaller GH2-style sensor size is an advantage for most anamorphic adapters like the LA7200 and Iscorama stuff as it avoids the soft edges, and the egg-shaped corner flare of the Iscoramas.

I also recommend the Canon 10-22mm EFS for anamorphic on the Blackmagic and GH2 as it is a very good match optically to the LA7200 at around 14mm.

[Sean Cunningham]

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=596.msg4242#msg4242 date=1334760097]
...
Yes it is a shame specialist stuff like LOMO OCT18 and rangefinder glass ([i][b]also Nokton 25mm F0.95[/b][/i]) won't adapt but you will still have a GH3 for that.
[/quote]

Why wouldn't the Nokton and other M43 lenses not adapt?  I understand why you wouldn't on a full-frame camera that normally makes full use of what you get with EF glass but you would have full coverage here.  Or is it a flange depth issue?

[garypayton]

All this said I'm one of those people (there must be a good number)  that cannot afford to pay 3000$ (2700 euro with taxes) to buy a new camera from a company that never made one the day of the release. It's a long process meaning I would have to sell my 5d2 and maybe a pair of lenses to make some money for this cam, and I would do that only if it's worth! I envy any of  you that can preorder it without even seeing a serious test  :D

I was about to buy a GH2 to use it alongside my 5D2 and maybe in some time sell the 5d and use the gh2 only, but in some ways this camera f..cks my plans. So now I'll keep my 5d...I also got to leave the vaf filter since it doesn't make sense to buy a 400$ filter if then I have to buy a 3000$ camera.

[johnbauerphoto]

[quote author=BurnetRhoades link=topic=596.msg4251#msg4251 date=1334768637]
[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=596.msg4242#msg4242 date=1334760097]
...
Yes it is a shame specialist stuff like LOMO OCT18 and rangefinder glass ([i][b]also Nokton 25mm F0.95[/b][/i]) won't adapt but you will still have a GH3 for that.
[/quote]

Why wouldn't the Nokton and other M43 lenses not adapt?  I understand why you wouldn't on a full-frame camera that normally makes full use of what you get with EF glass but you would have full coverage here.  Or is it a flange depth issue?
[/quote]

yes flange depth will be the problem. EF Mount is quite "adapt-unfriendly".

Andrew you are right when saying that shallow depth of field is overrated. but still I dont even see an good option for a 50mm equivalent and fast lens. You don't always need and aperture below f2,8 but especially with this sensor size I would love to have the option.

For a 50mm equivalent lens you would need to use a lens around 21mm, is that correct? And there are no fast lenses at this focal lengths in Canons or Nikons line up sadly.

I'm just saying a m4/3 mount (or something similar) would have made much more sense because it gives you all the options. You can easily adapt EF glas...

[garypayton]

well guys, I've owned a 5d Mark II (i still do) and i rarely got problems with adapters. Sure, I know panasonic 4/3 gives more possibilities, but I won't see this mounting problem as the main one. I mount Nikon lenses, olympus, leica, m42...there's a good choice.

My main curiosity and the real deal that will make me decide about this camera is how it works in low light, i hope in usuable image at least at 3200 iso, while right now they say the iso of the camera reaches 1600 only.

[johnbauerphoto]

There are some nice things you can adapt to EF thats true but not the right things  ;)

Like I said, m43 or C-Mount would be nice and these will not be usable sadly.

[Sean Cunningham]

[quote author=johnbauerphoto link=topic=596.msg4273#msg4273 date=1334784371]
yes flange depth will be the problem. EF Mount is quite "adapt-unfriendly".
[/quote]

I'm still not clear this isn't just "baggage" that's come along with the EF mount, based on existing cameras.