The downfall of the big guys just began - BlackMagic 2.5K Cinema Camera with 12bit RAW for $3000

[FilmMan]

I think the BlackMagic will be a [size=14pt]big [/size] wakeup call for the camera manufacturers.  Did a little more digging. 

[FilmMan]

Actually, BM might put them to sleep.  Amazing camera.

[Simco123]

So who has ordered a BM cinema camera?

[Andrew Reid]

Me  :)

[Leang]

[quote author=Sara link=topic=596.msg4448#msg4448 date=1334945629]
Is part of the reason thunderbolt is included is to monitor from laptops?  More and more laptops will have this connection.  Not portable but it is a very accurate and customizable and upgradable.  Laptop stands, even those connecting to a tripod are cheap.
[/quote]

thunderbolt is more aimed for transfer protocol.  as SSD's get bigger and better this protocol is perfect to offload 512GB to your master backup drives.  USB 3 or PCI Express 34 transfers atm can't compete with thunderbolt.  SSD dock stations via USB 3, express, etc... now seem a bit more redundant with these type of file size industry standards.  or connecting the offload to a 6 slot + workstation seems too physical.  I must admit BMD's method of marketing non proprietary SSD forms is the DIY of filmmaking.  :D

[Simco123]

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=596.msg4470#msg4470 date=1335000029]
Me  :)
[/quote]
I have too from one of  their recommended supplier. Also ordered the hand grip. The main thing is I can use my Canon lens. Do you think the EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS the best walk around lens for the BM? I was was going to sell it to fund the 5DIII untill the BM arrive.

[rommex]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=596.msg4474#msg4474 date=1335005054]
... Do you think the EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS the best walk around lens for the BM?...
[/quote]

"walk around lens for BM" sounds like self-contradictory, don't you think?)) a clever suggestion for a one4all lens option though. 17mm for BM is like 24mm on my 7D. And my 24-70L is one of those lenses when no wide is necessary.

[Simco123]

The EF-S 10-22mm is another option but will not bring much DOF.
The other is Sigma 20mm f1.8 which turns into a 48mm.
Anyone any recommendation for a fast wide angle lens that is comptable with an EF adapter?

[John Twigt]

[quote author=garypayton link=topic=596.msg4436#msg4436 date=1334937963]
[quote author=Teddy B. link=topic=596.msg4430#msg4430 date=1334932642]
Agreed with those saying that not having HDMI is [i]not[/i] a bad thing - this camera is clearly aimed at the more serious hobbyist or emerging professional, so SDI is the right choice...
[/quote]

Absolutely not with you on this. You guys sometimes get contraddictory about this camera. This camera MUST be made for DSLR users who are supposed to already own lenses, monitors and accessories but really need a camera to take them to the next level without spending too much money.

If this camera is not that, then for who's made? No HDMI out, thinking about all those users that owns a small monitor such as a Zacuto evf or a smallhd WANT to be able to use it.

DSLRs are revolutionary because they give you immense power in a pocket, because you can take it in your hands, put a viewfinder or a small monitor and go, to a favela, into the jungle, in crazy positions, in difficult envyroments. If this camera is intended for a static set with SDI monitors, tripod, for us to play like we are the Orson Welles of the moment, then it really makes no sense.

So you are sure with an adaptor there is no way to use HDMI EVF or small monitors?????
[/quote]

Not so important I think, if you need HDMI get a converter, be glad SDI is included, It's probably the first camera in this price range which has it, check these converters by atomos.[url=http://www.atomos.com/connect/]http://www.atomos.com/connect/[/url]

[shijan]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=596.msg4468#msg4468 date=1334994719]
So who has ordered a BM cinema camera?
[/quote]
not so fast, there is so many time till july, and there is another more interesting camera project will be announced very soon... i hope so  ;)

[Simco123]

[quote author=shijan link=topic=596.msg4484#msg4484 date=1335026185]
[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=596.msg4468#msg4468 date=1334994719]
So who has ordered a BM cinema camera?
[/quote]
not so fast, there is so many time till july, and there is another more interesting camera project will be announced very soon... i hope so  ;)
[/quote]

I heard about a $5000 camera that has S35 sensor but unless it fits my Canon lens and allow full iris control plus free software that cost $1000 and similar flexibilty and cost effective way with RAW storage I'm sticking with the BM for now. I got this feeling BM will sell out quickly and may not meet the demand with a long waiting list. Many Canon dSLR owners who is looking for a big boost with video will be looking at this instead.

[FilmMan]

There still is over 3 months before BM is released (supposedly July 30).  In the interim, the following possibles:
1.  Sony FS700 (who knows what the final release version will bring).
2.  Kineraw releases their S35 during June.  It isn't a proven company as BM but if the ducks are lined properly (quality build, distribution, excellent video picture, competitive price, etc.) then it could have an impact.  What if the picture turns out to be compariable to the Arri???  Lot's of questions remain.
3.  Other cameras (a couple are lurking).
4.  Canon opens up the 5D3 to raw or better codec.
5.  Magic Lantern gets the HDMI out. 
6.  Other.

Will the giants let BlackMagic gain momentum?  Will they attempt to crush?  Interesting stuff supposedly coming in May and forward. 

[OverCranked]

[quote author=Leang link=topic=596.msg4434#msg4434 date=1334933687]
[quote author=christianhubbard link=topic=596.msg4428#msg4428 date=1334928799]

If you think you need slow mo (which you probably don't, no one really does)
[/quote]

a little toooo bold there... you should really rethink cinematography.  I guess this all depends on your subjectivity of filmmaking.
[/quote]

I'm not sure if anybody around here is old enough to remember how the OverCrank usage for creating drama got so badly out of hand during the 70s . Eventually slomo became a standard in comedy pictures for delivering mocked drama. It went to the point everybody gave up on it because it was too much of a good thing. They just turn the technique to something that gave the impression of funny drama. Yet again we are already there. You could almost anticipate the slomo shot coming at you in every Afganistan doc or the skateboard guy ...

Oh - and the pun was intended with the profile title. LOL

[Leang]

[quote author=OverCranked link=topic=596.msg4492#msg4492 date=1335035281]
You could almost anticipate the slomo shot coming at you in every Afganistan doc or the skateboard guy ...

Oh - and the pun was intended with the profile title. LOL
[/quote]

I am glad more people focus on image quality.  separates real filmmakers from the wannabes.  any day and night would Michael Ballhaus favour an inspiring filmmaker with a dynamic shot using a Bolex @ 64fps over the many million DSLR users just framing subjects doing NOTHING and thinking they've made a masterpiece because their product has DOF of film. 

[Axel]

[quote author=OverCranked link=topic=596.msg4492#msg4492 date=1335035281]
[quote author=Leang link=topic=596.msg4434#msg4434 date=1334933687]
[quote author=christianhubbard link=topic=596.msg4428#msg4428 date=1334928799]

If you think you need slow mo (which you probably don't, no one really does)
[/quote]

a little toooo bold there... you should really rethink cinematography.  I guess this all depends on your subjectivity of filmmaking.
[/quote]

I'm not sure if anybody around here is old enough to remember how the OverCrank usage for creating drama got so badly out of hand during the 70s ....
[/quote]

I love slomos, stop motion, bullet time, time remapping, stop tricks and timelapse. Obvious time manipulation had been used from the beginning, and in a way it's the emotional heartbeat of the cinema. Therefore higher framerates are welcome, but no necessitiy (can be done in post). Very high framerates like with the FS700 will bring us boring vimeo stuff (some Peckinpahs or John Woos as exceptions), that I personally love to skip.

Now I am through with reading 13 pages. If anyone like garypayton refuses to shriek Hallelujah, he is attacked. Don't you think this is disproportionate? We really don't know much about the camera, and it could be total junk in practice. I think the few problems that have already been named (battery, expensive rig needed, no proper wide-angle-lenses) would throw every other cam with a normal price out of the race. I expect more problems that will become apparent. The big guys became big because they had decades of experience in constructing usable video cams. This is not just a matter of screwing together some chips. Another advice I always found useful: Never buy the prototype! A prototype educates it's owner to become an expert in dealing with the weaknesses that the next generation has no longer.

The grading argument: Probably true. But to take advantage of it, you [u]must[/u] grade. This is not against the camera, but be aware of that.

The cinema argument ("an indie cinema camera with true 12-bit for under $3000") is complete bullshit. You can't judge a 12-bit image that is supposed to [i]stay[/i] 12-bit on an 8-bit Monitor. So to fulfill this promise, the next step of the revolution has to be a $400 12-bit 2,5k Monitor, probably neither from Sony nor Eizo.

I hope it will happen. Because I always felt it was time to demand color depth rather than higher resolution. Most people don't realize that the colors of our videos lack something, because they never saw direct comparisons. Because without access to devices to view 12-bit, the majority won't care, we could as well go on using 8-bit forever.

Resolution of films had been no issue for 100 years. This has changed within the past ten years, because HD became a standard. We are right now used to see 720p as sufficiently sharp and well-defined video. It will take a very long time until the audience will no longer be satisfied with this.

The quality that comes with finer colors makes a fine difference. Nothing spectacular. But if you see your favourite self-shot video, one that made you proud because of it's beauty, on a big screen, you will be convinced.

I am looking forward. We witness real progress. Until then, let us think again about what we already have. We have cameras capable of producing beautiful video out of the box. Video that fits on a thumbnail-sized card an hour. Video that seldom needs to be graded. And is it really true, that it can't survive Magic Bullet and the like? That - despite it is being treated with the intensive care of floating point mathematics - banding and noise appear everywhere? No, this is exaggerated.

[shijan]

i made a little test: graded log jpeg in a camera raw with some sharpening applied. http://cl.ly/G4VB

[Sean Cunningham]

[quote author=garypayton link=topic=596.msg4436#msg4436 date=1334937963]
...
DSLRs are revolutionary because they give you immense power in a pocket, because you can take it in your hands, put a viewfinder or a small monitor and go, to a favela, into the jungle, in crazy positions, in difficult envyroments. If this camera is intended for a static set with SDI monitors, tripod, for us to play like we are the Orson Welles of the moment, then it really makes no sense.
...
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I can only assume you haven't actually tried to do those things with an HDMI setup based on this, because my own experience with  the 7D is that HDMI is crap even for the "static set" with "tripod", etc.  It's a horrible hardware spec, down to the cables. 

I went through three or four Monster mini-to-HDMI adapters doing very careful setups with both an external monitor and this POS IKAN we got as a loaner.  That's like $50 a pop for about nine inches of cable.  On our last day we actually had a setup for this overhead shot where the cable had to have just the right amount of tension in order to maintain a signal to the monitor and it would blink in and out. 

It's no surprise to me that professional A/V installers with "on call" service to their clients [i][b]always[/b][/i] run component connections as back-up for when their client's HDMI cables get tweaked just the wrong way (but not unplugged), or gravity pulls just enough on that bottom, vertical connection (but doesn't unplug it) and they lose signal at 3AM on a Saturday night.

Garbage.  Even for a consumer spec.  Must be video engineers getting even with the world for decades of jokes about NTSC and its finally being banished from existence.  That or the same folks that came up with the hardware spec for 1394/Firewire, which is/was also bad and glitchy.

[shijan]

one more disadvantage - camera has glossy screen :( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t07XqdHMr0Q&feature=player_embedded#hd=1&hd=1

[Sara]

[quote author=shijan link=topic=596.msg4794#msg4794 date=1335551245]
one more disadvantage - camera has glossy screen :( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t07XqdHMr0Q&feature=player_embedded#hd=1&hd=1
[/quote]

It comes with a snap on hood as seen in this picture.  Problem solved.

[shijan]

hood is not a solution for glare screen, but protection antiglare sheet may help