Why Gerald Undone is wrong about the Sigma Fp-L

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, EduPortas said:

I don't care if he gives a negative or positive review of a Sigma product. That's beside the point.

The underlying credibility of these influencers is the main problem. We all know companies are greasing their hands with free gear they later sell to make a quick buck, ad revenue, free trips, etc. They are part of any marketing budget now.

That's were they are coming from. Brands and the YT algorithm love them because it make a sweet connection with money spent advertising their new products on Google. They can track exactly when and whom created a surge in gear sold via a particular link.

So no. They have no credibility in my book, bro. 

Maybe save that criticism for the Matti Haapoja's and Peter McKinnon's of YouTube and not the guy that does rather dry long form reviews and regularly criticizes the things you think he's trying to sell?

I say this as a very vocal critic of the YouTube filmmaking bubble. I don't always agree with Gerald but it's ridiculous to act as though he's looking to maximize clicks and affiliate sales. His videos would be under 10 minutes and feature him pouring coffee (gotta get that pouring sound!), riding a one wheel around, and otherwise pretending to have a far more exciting life than he does, all while talking about how awesome x is and that you should definitely check those affiliate links down below! 

At least be fair if you're gonna criticize the guy. 

[currensheldon]

Yes, the Youtube influencer machine is awful, but Gerald is the least offensive offender. He does all technical reviews, true, but at least he does a thorough and honest job. Only CVP is anywhere close to the usefulness of his reviews from a pure tech standpoint.

[Andrew Reid]

19 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

Yes, the Youtube influencer machine is awful, but Gerald is the least offensive offender. He does all technical reviews, true, but at least he does a thorough and honest job. Only CVP is anywhere close to the usefulness of his reviews from a pure tech standpoint.

I have nothing against him as a person, in fact has done some very informative stuff, and I've praised him for it in the past... just think he is part of the same machine, and that in the case of the Fp series he hasn't given it a fair crack of the whip. It is a direction for the internet overall that I'm just not too glad about. It is becoming just all powerful brands paraded on TV, brands influencing the influencer, and the incredibly anodyne nature of the personalities bores me to death... to the point of provoking them even, just to see if there is a real person there.

I also don't get the same filmmaking inspiration I do from tech guys as I do from an actual Dp. It's what makes Bloom so persuasive - the pretty pictures - makes people overlook the person he actually is in my opinion, but we won't get into that again.

[Video Hummus]

I believe this is Japanese but even without understanding anything I can tell it was a way better "review" or hands-on than DPReview did.

 

7 hours ago, currensheldon said:

Yes, the Youtube influencer machine is awful, but Gerald is the least offensive offender. He does all technical reviews, true, but at least he does a thorough and honest job. Only CVP is anywhere close to the usefulness of his reviews from a pure tech standpoint.

Yes, I have nothing against information style videos like Gerald did. I quite enjoy CVP much more as they actually use the camera and offer feedback. Gerald's videos are kinda like technical launch promo videos. I find the deep dives of the technical bits useful and I throw the rest away, including any buying advice. Infinitely more useful than anything from Peter McKinnon or Matti. They are now purely lifestyle channels with a camera fetish slant. When people say influencer those guys are the textbook definition. When they want something they ask or e-mail companies to send them free shit and then tell you to stay humble. 

[newfoundmass]

12 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Yes, I have nothing against information style videos like Gerald did. I quite enjoy CVP much more as they actually use the camera and offer feedback. Gerald's videos are kinda like technical launch promo videos. I find the deep dives of the technical bits useful and I throw the rest away, including any buying advice. Infinitely more useful than anything from Peter McKinnon or Matti. They are now purely lifestyle channels with a camera fetish slant. When people say influencer those guys are the textbook definition. When they want something they ask or e-mail companies to send them free shit and then tell you to stay humble. 

That's why I also appreciate Caleb Pike. I know Andrew isn't a fan but he buys most of the gear he reviews, including old cameras. He also seemed to take people's criticism of the EOS R launch trip he took to heart and hasn't done any of those all expenses paid trips since. 

There are some decent YouTubers out there, which is why I tried to make a thread on here about them (some sadly should probably be removed now as they've become shills that only talk about things sent to them for free.) I wish Andrew and others would do more on there, as whether we like it or not it's kind of THE platform since the community that was once on Vimeo has dried up. 

[newfoundmass]

Ah, looks like my YouTube thread was lost or deleted. I was gonna remove some of the recommendations. 😞

[amweber21]

Received my fp L this morning. I have to say I'm very impressed. I am able to customize it perfectly how I want, including all buttons and dials. Rear dial set to ISO control, and even the tone button as I'll never use that. I only wish they had a quicker option to jump into auto ISO and minimum shutter settings for stills. I am not able to figure out if you can set it to separate modes between cine and stills. Right now I must switch between M in cine and A in stills every time.

Battery life is not the best, but manageable. Auto focus is nothing to write home about (I'm a Panasonic user so no big deal). I see no problem with flickering or skewing in normal use shooting so far. 

Did a couple tests in video. 12bit at a crop of 1.0x-1.24x it definitely suffers from some line skipped artifacts and is noticeably softer viewed at 100%. The good news is everything else is great. 1.3x and on is sharp and detailed. When switched to 10bit all modes, including 1.0x, are good. I will probably keep it in 10bit when wider or when the scene is not too demanding, and when I can get away with cropping it I'll switch to 12bit.

[timapple]

On 4/16/2021 at 5:08 PM, newfoundmass said:

You really turned this into a rant about trans folks?

No, but I believe you just did.  My "rant" was about common sense and supposed "tolerance" except when the tolerant people are intolerant. It's okay to be different unless the mob doesn't agree and then you're bullied into fitting in.  Kind of like your response to try to make me feel bad instead of engaging in a logical, mature conversation.

[currensheldon]

33 minutes ago, amweber21 said:

Received my fp L this morning. I have to say I'm very impressed. I am able to customize it perfectly how I want, including all buttons and dials. Rear dial set to ISO control, and even the tone button as I'll never use that. I only wish they had a quicker option to jump into auto ISO and minimum shutter settings for stills. I am not able to figure out if you can set it to separate modes between cine and stills. Right now I must switch between M in cine and A in stills every time.

Battery life is not the best, but manageable. Auto focus is nothing to write home about (I'm a Panasonic user so no big deal). I see no problem with flickering or skewing in normal use shooting so far. 

Did a couple tests in video. 12bit at a crop of 1.0x-1.24x it definitely suffers from some line skipped artifacts and is noticeably softer viewed at 100%. The good news is everything else is great. 1.3x and on is sharp and detailed. When switched to 10bit all modes, including 1.0x, are good. I will probably keep it in 10bit when wider or when the scene is not too demanding, and when I can get away with cropping it I'll switch to 12bit.

Would love to hear your thoughts. I love the FP concept, body, design, internal raw, L-mount, etc, and have almost bought the FP a dozen times. Just looks like it would be fun to own and use with my Zeiss Contax lenses. But both the FP and now FP-L seem to have some strange quirks. Is the rolling shutter really as bad as some reviews have stated?

[amweber21]

They do have some quirks, and are much more minimalistic than other cameras, but that's what I wanted. Clean, simple, and small.

I didn't get the evf, and while it would be nice to have, the screen is great and I've had no problems outdoors. Might pick it up used one day. If you know which shutter speeds to use and which to avoid in artificial lighting you can get around banding pretty easy. The couple manual lenses I tried worked great. 

I can't say much about rolling shutter. In cinemaDNG it's apparent if you whip it around, but improves a little the tighter you crop. It's not an issue for me in normal shots, and there are modes to use if you need a shot with a lot of movement.

I didn't think I would utilize internal raw much, but after testing the 8bit UHD, it's impressive. When not needing maximum dynamic range, it is not a big step down from full 12bit. I do not have a v90 card, and even the highest capacity will give you only 10-20 minutes, but in the coming years I'm sure we'll get 512/1tb cards that will solve that. If you're fine with 1080p raw you will get longer record times and the ability to use cheaper v60 cards with 8/10/12bit available. The samsung t5 I use isn't too unwieldy though as I attach it directly to the grip. So it screws on in seconds.  

All in all a lot to like, despite the negativity it's received.

[nathlas]

On 4/19/2021 at 9:28 PM, MrSMW said:

 

Gerald is very much a Sony man these days, but nothing wrong with that or his channel, - I watch it quite a bit, respect the guy and don't feel I am ever being sold anything or channelled anywhere and don't begrudge him making a living.

 

I wouldn't say he is a Sony guy. 

He is using BM cameras as well and he seems always loyal to simplicityon working sets.

He offered not to release his opinion on FP-L as he knew that he couldn't hide the truth he discovered.

That's very fair for him and honorable for Sigma that didn;t try to cover up his gray opinion.

 

I trully respect him.

[MrSMW]

54 minutes ago, nathlas said:

I wouldn't say he is a Sony guy.

I thought he bought several Sony A7Siii's after reviewing one?

I don't follow that closely so could be wrong...

 

[Andrew Reid]

6 hours ago, nathlas said:

I trully respect him.

You can still disagree with someone you respect, you know.

[Andrew Reid]

This is a very small premium to jump from 24MP to 61MP by the way. That is class leading resolution. I am not suggesting this is the right camera for video users, but they did their best not to sacrifice anything on that side either. It still does 12bit 4K RAW, which is pretty amazing from 61MP. The A7R IV doesn't do that does it? Yet Sony charge a much bigger premium for high resolution, compared to the standard model A7 III.

So for a lot of landscape photographers this is going to be a great deal, and for a lot of cine shooters who also need a compact high resolution camera (medium format league resolution!) what is the alternative exactly?

[nathlas]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

You can still disagree with someone you respect, you know.

I trust him too.

[nathlas]

10 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I thought he bought several Sony A7Siii's after reviewing one?

I don't follow that closely so could be wrong...

 

It doesn't matter.

If he decided that for his kind of jobs that camera suits him fine why not ? 

I don't have a problem to use any kind of camera in my job. 

But I will rarely pretend  that a camera suits me if it will cause me more problems than  using  a more suitable solution.

 

Sigma FP L is a fine camera from a superb company and I really hope that they will try improve that in the future and not abandon that project.

But this specific camera is not of any really professional usefall use as it is.

[newfoundmass]

16 hours ago, timapple said:

No, but I believe you just did.  My "rant" was about common sense and supposed "tolerance" except when the tolerant people are intolerant. It's okay to be different unless the mob doesn't agree and then you're bullied into fitting in.  Kind of like your response to try to make me feel bad instead of engaging in a logical, mature conversation.

What did trans folk have to do with any of this? You decided to rant about them for no reason. Pointing that out isn't an attempt to make you feel bad, you don't have that kind of awareness or empathy, it was a genuine reaction to an unhinged rant about trans people in a post about a camera. 

I'm not going to derail this thread and will simply move on and ignore you. 

[kye]

19 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am not suggesting this is the right camera for video users, but they did their best not to sacrifice anything on that side either. It still does 12bit 4K RAW, which is pretty amazing from 61MP. The A7R IV doesn't do that does it? Yet Sony charge a much bigger premium for high resolution, compared to the standard model A7 III.

So for a lot of landscape photographers this is going to be a great deal, and for a lot of cine shooters who also need a compact high resolution camera (medium format league resolution!) what is the alternative exactly?

I actually think that it's a pretty killer camera for cine uses.  

If you're a P4K / P6K potential customer then I think you're also an FP / FP-L potential customer because you're willing to rig the camera up for external storage, you're willing to deal with large file sizes, you're willing to deal with external power solutions (although that's way better on the FP than the BMs), you're willing to sacrifice RS performance for image, etc.

The compromises that prevented me from buying an FP were to do with the lower bitrate codecs and the elements that are more 'video' than 'cinema', but even those could be fixed in firmware updates down the track potentially.

And yeah, alternatives?  None.  Most cameras have competitors that overlap with all or almost all features, but even the closest alternatives to the FP or FP-L have quite a number of significant differences, so really there's nothing even close.

[BTM_Pix]

The fp is by far the more spiritual successor to the original BMPCC than the BMPCC4K and 6K are.

Same advantages, some of the same drawbacks.

To the BMPCC it adds full frame, 4K, reasonable autofocus, better low light, better storage, an even more adaptable lens mount and now an EVF.

If you were into the BMPCC and want all that you had with that and a whole lot more then the fp should probably be on your list to check out unless your needs have changed in the meantime.

Similarly, I personally love the Leica T in combination with the Visoflex 020 EVF as I can have it both ways in terms of using it with the LCD or with the EVF and I can put tiny M mount lenses on it as well as electronic lenses.

Again, as with the BMPCC, the fp shares the same same advantages and some of the same drawbacks.

To the Leica T it adds full frame, RAW video, 4K video, far better autofocus, better low light and better storage options.

In the intervening years since I've had the Leica T, the L mount range of lenses has of course come round to meet it and there are now a boatload more lens options now and at a far more affordable price.

I've been droning on for a long time about how really good it is having the tilt capability of the Visoflex 020 on the Leica T and now it has come to the fp.

So, again, If you were into the Leica T/TL and want all that you had with that and a whole lot more then the fp should probably be on your list to check out unless your needs have changed in the meantime.

I love both of those cameras so, for me, the fp is just their logical conclusion (or close to it) so I love the fp too.

Is it just limited to people who love those two cameras ?

I don't think it should be but I do get why not only does it not appeal to those looking for an alternative to the usual suspects but that its appeal to others can seem quite bewildering.

Sigma could probably do with adding a feature in to the fp that would be enough of a differentiation for people to say "Mmm...the Sigma can do <insert feature here> though so that is a big plus in its favour" and even up the spec chart a bit more.

I think if that added feature was ProRes (regular not RAW), preferably internal but to SSD if not, then that could be the one to shake things up.

Even then, though, it will likely not be for everyone and I think thats a good thing for everyone in terms of manufacturers not all producing very similar cameras.

 

 

 

[BTM_Pix]

On 4/20/2021 at 4:50 AM, Video Hummus said:

I believe this is Japanese but even without understanding anything I can tell it was a way better "review" or hands-on than DPReview did.

The auto translated subtitles are actually pretty decent to be able to follow along.

For fans of Aty, one of the locations they shot in this video looks suspiciously like one of the waterfall areas that he frolics about in.