Why Gerald Undone is wrong about the Sigma Fp-L

[Andrew Reid]

Yeah the diffused light you get with the Pro Mist filters really helps on digital to take the edge off.

I find the S1H, S5 have edge over A7S III so far for me in terms of image quality. Thicker files.

It is just a shame they put such a small EVF on the S5 it really ruins manual focus.

[MrSMW]

After the S1H, nothing much compares for me!

The EVF is in another ball park obviously but the LCD quality is also significant, especially in brighter light.

[Husain Foolath]

Omg, this must be the best article online regarding cameras and gear. The sigma FP & FP L are fantanstic, revolutionaty cameras AHEAD of their time. Unfortunetly, Gerald and people like him arent real artists or filmmakers; they will never know the worth of these innovations from companies like Sigma. What is really sad is that they come out and ruin the image of these fantastic brands/cameras just because they dont know sh** about filmmaking, just tech nerds.

 

thank you so much for this article, im enjoying my Sigma FP everyday, I have no regrets selling my A7III for that little beast !

[Andrew Reid]

On 6/7/2021 at 7:20 PM, MrSMW said:

After the S1H, nothing much compares for me!

The EVF is in another ball park obviously but the LCD quality is also significant, especially in brighter light.

I find Panasonic are leading the entire field when it comes to actually seeing the image you are shooting.

The brightest and best screens.

The biggest EVFs.

(Well, apart from the S5)

[MrSMW]

16 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

(Well, apart from the S5)

Don't tell anyone, but since getting my S1H, the S5 just doesn't compare in any area except maybe size and image quality.

Build, handling, controls, the way everything clicks, shutter sound (sublime), rear screen articulation (the best rear screen ever designed) & resolution, EVF and actually, I quite like the weight of the thing which is basically 1kg/2.2lbs and gives a good stable platform for handheld work.

And in regard to the whole size and weight thing, it's smaller and much lighter than my old Nikon D3S's, especially when you added in the 24-70 and 70-200 they went armed with...and then compared with the Sigma 35mm and 65mm f2's that are my new lenses of choice, no contest in the size & weight department.

The S5 is going to static longer form duty with the Sigma 28-70mm f2.8 for all video work and when not doing video work, it will be my stills 'special' such as sticking on the 20-60mm for the wide end or the 85mm for longer stuff, or if I really need it, the 24-105mm f4 in APSC crop mode for it's long end up to '160mm' reach.

Plus it is my other 'personal' camera. The Sony ZV1 is for family trips etc, but going say hiking in the mountains, the S5 with the 20-60 is the one.

I'm a fan of the entire L Mount system, but especially the S1H and Sigma glass.

I like the S5 but love the S1H and will be getting another as soon as the working/funds situation allows.

[Andrew Reid]

Yeah the S5 is there really to compete with the Sony A7 III, offering better video quality for same price or lower.

The S1H is where the real interest is for me

[MrSMW]

I know I sound like a fanboy, but for me/my needs, it is basically perfect other than the less than stellar tracking AF.

Maybe could be 10% smaller and lighter? The Leica SL2 is the closest to the perfect size & weight combo for me.

I would have rather it did not have big white LUMIX lettering on the front. I blacked it out on my S5 before the SL2-S came out 😉

But really, for my run & gun, as it is, straight out of the box, hybrid needs of high quality stills (raw) and at a flick of a switch, excellent SOOC 10 bit 4K 50p, there is nothing…nothing, else out there. 

[Andrew Reid]

Yeah, the image quality is better than A7S III too.

OK, there's no 4K/120p (or 100fps for us in PAL land) but you can do a lot of creative stuff with 60p in 4K and 180fps in HD. 60p can easily be Twixtor'd.

I'd prefer if it looked a little more cinema camera and less Lumix but the ergonomics are superb.

Colour is better than Sony too.

For manual focus, tripod and handheld cinematic shooting there is nothing better for the price and size, I'd take it over Blackmagic's shit any day.

[Alt Shoo]

Gerald’s review of the fp is based off his usage, which is a personal thing and since he’s influential, his personal tastes are passed on to the sheep of the earth. 

For my personal needs, this camera exceeds plenty! I had the chance to purchase a BMD12K, Komodo, a GFX100 and a FX9, but decided on a pair of Sigma cameras. A fp and fpL kitted out with some lenses from Irix and Dulens. I also paired them with two Atomos Ninja Vs. 

I really watch these YouTubers just to get perspective. I make up my mind by simply testing and knowing what fits the workflow I want to use. 

[amweber21]

3 hours ago, Alt Shoo said:

Gerald’s review of the fp is based off his usage, which is a personal thing and since he’s influential, his personal tastes are passed on to the sheep of the earth. 

For my personal needs, this camera exceeds plenty! I had the chance to purchase a BMD12K, Komodo, a GFX100 and a FX9, but decided on a pair of Sigma cameras. A fp and fpL kitted out with some lenses from Irix and Dulens. I also paired them with two Atomos Ninja Vs. 

I really watch these YouTubers just to get perspective. I make up my mind by simply testing and knowing what fits the workflow I want to use. 

I really like your setups, especially with the smallrig side handle.

Have you felt the need to drop to 1.3x crop on your fp L to avoid the aliasing similar to 12bit cDNG? I usually shoot 10bit when I need the width (which still looks great) but the raw output being only 12bit I suppose you cannot do this. Gerald complains about the raw output softness of the fp L but it's a sensor speed limitation and not really Sigma's fault.

I'd recommend the original fp for strictly video, but I love my fp L.

[Alt Shoo]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:53 AM, amweber21 said:

I really like your setups, especially with the smallrig side handle.

Have you felt the need to drop to 1.3x crop on your fp L to avoid the aliasing similar to 12bit cDNG? I usually shoot 10bit when I need the width (which still looks great) but the raw output being only 12bit I suppose you cannot do this. Gerald complains about the raw output softness of the fp L but it's a sensor speed limitation and not really Sigma's fault.

I'd recommend the original fp for strictly video, but I love my fp L.

Sorry for the delay. I didn’t receive a notification for this post. Regarding your questions, I haven’t noticed any aliasing with 12 bit at all. And with respect to all of the, for the lack of a better term, pixel peepers, those things really don’t concern me. I just ensure that I have the proper composition, exposure and focus. Whatever “artifacts” that are there doesn’t dampen my goal, which is to just create some lovely artwork. Now if I’m experiencing some heavy moire, for instance when I’m downscaling from 4k to HD, then yes I’ll be mindful. However as I mentioned, these “artifacts” don’t bother me. 

[amweber21]

3 hours ago, Alt Shoo said:

Sorry for the delay. I didn’t receive a notification for this post. Regarding your questions, I haven’t noticed any aliasing with 12 bit at all. And with respect to all of the, for the lack of a better term, pixel peepers, those things really don’t concern me. I just ensure that I have the proper composition, exposure and focus. Whatever “artifacts” that are there doesn’t dampen my goal, which is to just create some lovely artwork. Now if I’m experiencing some heavy moire, for instance when I’m downscaling from 4k to HD, then yes I’ll be mindful. However as I mentioned, these “artifacts” don’t bother me. 

Understood. Thanks for the answer, and, yes, it gives a beautiful image regardless of it's setting. I only notice when I'm doing specific technical testing with it, nothing in motion. I see something similar when shooting 1080p instead of UHD. Seems to be better to downscale in post if possible.

I guess my question is if it is capable of using the crop zoom function while kicking out a raw signal. I'm sure it is, but I haven't been able to confirm. Not only for the previous concern, but also because I like the ability it gives of "zooming" with primes.

[Alt Shoo]

43 minutes ago, amweber21 said:

Understood. Thanks for the answer, and, yes, it gives a beautiful image regardless of it's setting. I only notice when I'm doing specific technical testing with it, nothing in motion. I see something similar when shooting 1080p instead of UHD. Seems to be better to downscale in post if possible.

I guess my question is if it is capable of using the crop zoom function while kicking out a raw signal. I'm sure it is, but I haven't been able to confirm. Not only for the previous concern, but also because I like the ability it gives of "zooming" with primes.

I’m quite sure it does. I will have to check today, when I’m sanitizing my gear. 

[MrSMW]

On 4/22/2021 at 2:11 PM, BTM_Pix said:

For fans of Aty, one of the locations they shot in this video looks suspiciously like one of the waterfall areas that he frolics about in.

Possibly his 'owner' is the dude with the FP-L? We never see him except for his hands... 🤨

Anyway, trawling this thread because I'm toying with the FP-L again...

Have been on and off ever since it came out and now that I am 4 weddings/10 attended days (most of my wedding coverage is hybrid and 2 or 3 days) and I'm not 'desperate' as such for a smaller & lighter set up, but actively looking at how I can reduce it all.

My audio gear is about as minimal as I can get it and all fits in one small belt pouch so no savings to be had there.

My lighting set up is as minimal as I can make it so ditto.

I'm running with my 2 lightest tripods now, each around 1.5kg including heads so nothing to be done there.

The S5 is pretty light and lives on one of those tripods anyway, only used for ceremonies and speeches, so not an issue.

But handling the S1R and S1H for 12-15 hours is wrecking my back, shoulders and right arm...and I'm a pretty fit guy who works out regularly, but...

Nothing much I can do about the S1H because there isn't anything else out there at this time that can touch it other than maybe the GH6, but the weight savings including the lenses vs the cost to change are not worth it.

The S1R is a 1.5kg lump, even with 'only' the Sigma 28-70mm f2.8 I could switch out for the FP-L and use the Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 lens which as a combo is less than 1/2 the weight at 717 grams.

OK, it would mean shooting it in APSC crop mode, but as it starts with 61mp...

Stick the Smallrig cage/grip combo (for handling) on and it's still under 1kg.

And I'm still intrigued to try one with the Lumix 24-105mm f4 (OIS) as a run n' gun video unit.

Decisions, decisions, decisions, - if only I could find a decently priced mint used one to try...

[kye]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

The S1R is a 1.5kg lump, even with 'only' the Sigma 28-70mm f2.8 I could switch out for the FP-L and use the Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 lens which as a combo is less than 1/2 the weight at 717 grams.

OK, it would mean shooting it in APSC crop mode, but as it starts with 61mp...

Stick the Smallrig cage/grip combo (for handling) on and it's still under 1kg.

And I'm still intrigued to try one with the Lumix 24-105mm f4 (OIS) as a run n' gun video unit.

Decisions, decisions, decisions, - if only I could find a decently priced mint used one to try...

1.5kg is pushing what you'd want to carry around, that's for sure.  My GH5 / Voigtlander f0.95 prime / Rode VMP+ combo is approaching that and is close to the limit of what I can comfortably carry around for long periods.

In terms of the FP-L the main consideration is codecs.  I'd inspect the images with a fine tooth comb - if it's anything like the FP the uncompressed RAW is a tsunami of data and the internal compressed formats were really not what you'd hope for.  I'm considering the FP but would only use it with external RAW recording - and that's only for my own personal work.

[MrSMW]

It's really only the stills side I am interested in Kye.

Video capability would be a bonus but the reality is I shoot: 10 bit 4k 50p internally, IBIS and need a tilt screen.

I could get around the lack of IBIS with the OIS of a zoom, but then f4 in low light when I shoot f2 primes...

I'm actually looking at investing in a small set of cinema primes, more for the fine focus than what I have now, but we'll see...

For this, IBIS is going to be essential for me.

I'm in no particular rush and trying to get Sigma France to loan me an FP-L for a couple of gigs but as yet, have not heard back.

Right now, any and everything within the L Mount Alliance is my preferred option, but I'm still keeping an eye on other future potential options and there is nothing that is not on the table.

Current issues?

Very VERY few...

Good tracking AF is the weakness, but less than 5% of my needs.

Size & weight is the other.

Apart from that, I'm a happy bunny with the kit I have.

I'd just like a pair of S1H's with 30mp in an identical body, but just shrunk down to S5 size & weight with improved tracking AF and I'd never want for anything more because in every other regard, I've already hit my needs requirements.

Still hoping there is a next gen FP that answers at least some of many potential users desires...

[MrSMW]

I had the following thought and posted it over on the Leica forum that I sometimes bob into and that is...

I have come to the conclusion that I love the L Mount Alliance options more than anything else out there right now.

The one area where I think they are failing however, is being a true alliance. Other than sharing a lens mount.

What I'd like to see is a proper collaboration which would be a mash up of the Leica Q2 and the Sigma FP-L as an identical body with the only difference being the logo on the brand that sells it.

Or even design a new L logo for it.

The camera that is 'missing' and I desire is the size/form factor of the Q and FP, ie, rangefinderesque without being a true rangefinder.

The Q2 is too limited in that it has a fixed 28mm lens with cropping limited to digitally, Jpeg only or in post with raw.

It does however have IBIS and a mechanical shutter.

The ONLY thing it lacks for me, is an interchangeable lens mount.

The FP-L counters with being smaller & lighter, more resolution, fantastic design (but no grip, easily remedied) but a frustrating lack of features.

Mash 'em up with some Panny video tech et voila, it would be FUCKIN' FANTASTIC.

Someone will come along now and say, "you're dreaming mate and it will never happen", but a fella can hope...

Possibly my best hope is that Panny even do it alone because it's 'missing' in their own lineup.

OK, Sigma don't have an 'DSLR' style body and only have the FP line but lot's of folks would really like this to happen.

And if they don't, well... 😜

And the FP-L has PDAF so imagine that...

[webrunner5]

That is all the world needs is a $6000.00 Leica Sigma FP-L. Lord didn't we have enough of the Panasonic knockoffs for 3 times the price.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

That is all the world needs is a $6000.00 Leica Sigma FP-L. Lord didn't we have enough of the Panasonic knockoffs for 3 times the price.

I don’t care what the World needs, just what I need!

But being serious, the Leica is around 5k $/€/£ so would probably be the benchmark for price.

The FP-L is half that.

A Panny equivalent doesn’t exist, but have collaborated on several bodies and lenses before…

So why not? And I am not talking about some simply rebadged Panny compact, but a genuine 3 company model done right. If the egos can be managed…

There are plenty of potential Q2 and FP-L customers who will not buy either because both are too flawed for their specific needs.

And I am one of I imagine 10’s of thousands of those people.

So yes, the world does need something like this!

I would rather it was not 5k, but if the spec was right for my needs, I’d buy a pair.

Right now, toying with a Q2 as my medium wide, primary indoor (but also outdoor anywhere) and if needed, flash unit, paired with an FP-L for mostly outdoor work with the Sigma 20mm f2 and 65mm f2.

Sell the redundant 35mm f2, chonky boy S1R, unused gimbal and a few other bits and bobs, to part find it.

As I have said before and will always continue to say and that is I hate change for change sake.

I also don’t like chopping and changing anything kit-wise without very good reason and my very good reason is with 66x 10+ hour average shooting days this year, my right shoulder especially, will thank me.

[webrunner5]

I would not trust Lecia for the image pipeline over Sigma. As of late the only thing Lecia seems to be good at is skinning Alligators and hanging it on their camera bodies, at as rather high inflated price I might add. 

I don't see any rise in my Levi's anymore about Leica, well at my age not happening anyways. Hardy an innovator in the world these days.  Sigma, Sony and Fuji MF come to mind to me anymore. Panasonic is up there also, Leica ehh not so much. They were the cats ass years ago. Now I don't think even dentists are buying them. Collectors that never even take the plastic of the carton are their target now.