Why Gerald Undone is wrong about the Sigma Fp-L

[PannySVHS]

Love it.😆

[kye]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

I’d call that more ‘camel’ than ‘beige’.

Sounds like you need to calibrate your monitor!

Let's have an argument about what specification your monitor is, if it has a dedicated video output or is being polluted by your operating systems colour management, what calibration device you use and what software you paired with it, what options you chose for calibration, what the ambient lighting conditions are in your studio and what CRI and calibration the globes have, what colour the walls of your studio are - I mean did you even buy the special neutral colour paint????

No wonder it's all gone topsy-turvy for you!!!

(In all seriousness, those things do matter, but making a film that isn't boring is still way more important....)

[nathlas]

On 5/29/2022 at 5:28 PM, webrunner5 said:

Sounds like You ought to practice what you preach. You do realize that this is his railroad. You are lucky it is not mine. 

You have to be pretty stupid to poke the guy that owns it, like him or not

 

It's not poking it's my opinion.

If he doesn't like that he couls surpass that easily as i do with opinions like those.

[BTM_Pix]

Bumped into someone yesterday who posts on here now and again.

He had a Sigma FP-L with him and I had a little play with it.

First thing is that he had the EVF-11 with it and whilst it looks a bit chunkier than I thought it would be, I actually found that to be an advantage as a grip point. The quality of the display is very good and the tilt mechanism every bit as useful as I’ve found on my Visoflex.

For me, then, the EVF-11 is a definite buy to add to my Fp.

Next up is the phase detection AF which is a big step up for me from the Fp - at least on the 45mm f2.8 that was attached. It racks between points very smoothly indeed and in combination with grabbing single focus by mapping the AEL button on the back as an AF-On emulation it works very well as a system.

 

[FHDcrew]

You mean the phase detect AF was usable?  That camera is my dream if so. Good enough for a tracking gimbal shot?  Better than Panasonic s5?

[MrSMW]

It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison between the FP-L and the S5…and I could have done that with my loaner last year, but didn’t.

Playing around, I felt it was about comparable, ie, the S5 when fine-tuned is reasonably decent whereas the FP-L, at least on original firmware (and I don’t know if there have been tweaks since?) wasn’t as good as my old XT3.

[FHDcrew]

Interesting. It seems to be one of those cameras where no YouTubers are using it, none of us see enough content to have a good idea of the camera’s current performance, so no one buys it. This we don’t know the AF as well as we should. 

[MrSMW]

Yup, very few 'reviews' etc out there in YouTubeLand.

Couple of in depth web reviews etc, but the problem with this camera is almost all of the content is initial review stuff and not from people who have actually invested their own money and used properly.

There's a bit more FP, having been around longer, but FP-L not so much.

Unless you can understand Japanese. Quite popular in Japan!

[FHDcrew]

Yeah, that’s unfortunate. If it’s PDAF has matured enough to compare well to say my Nikon Z6 AF, it will be perfect. I even feel “ethically” inclined to it. It sits well with me that the camera just gives us the plain, simple uncompressed raw readout. All cameras are capable of doing this to some extent, the manufacturers simply don’t do it. I’d be willing to sacrifice storage to have such a tiny camera with that level of image, assuming the AF is decent. Please run some tests if you get it!

[MrSMW]

Sigma France won't lend me another.

I tried a few weeks back and they said "non" so I went and bought a second Lumix S1R 🤪

[BTM_Pix]

Comparing the AF with the specific lens that was on the camera to my experience with the same lens on the FP then it is better.

I personally wouldn't class the contrast detect AF on the regular FP particularly unusable anyway to be honest and as it is a step up from that I'd stick my neck out and rate it as "even better than not particularly unusable".

Like everything else, AF performance can vary wildly with different lenses, environments, subject matter and shooting style so absent of those sorts of A/B tests being available online, its best to try and spend time with them yourself and see if they work for you.

Its not lightning fast but, for me, I'd sooner it arrive at the correct destination in a smooth controlled manner rather than manically circling the block at high speed doing handbrake turns.

[FHDcrew]

Wait, so the original sigma fp autofocus isn’t unusable?  Could I trust it to keep a face in focus for an interview, shooting wide open at 1.8?  Could I do a basic tracking shot on a gimbal and not have any crazy pulsating?

[BTM_Pix]

Again, for me personally, I don't consider it unusable because I, well, use it but I've got reasonable utility out of cameras with AF systems that a lot of people cry their eyes out about so what do I know ?

Trying to give a definitive answer to those examples isn't particularly realistic as there are so many situational elements (is that f1.8 a 24mm or a 105mm? is the subject on the edge of the frame where there are less AF points? how is it lit? etc) that can have a big impact on the outcome.

And thats before we get to the actual focus performance (in terms of when being driven by the AF system) of the lenses themselves as I generally find that to be a bigger factor.

But that is true of all systems, not just the FP.

Which is why it comes back to using them in your own environment and own way for your application as our mileages and expectations may vary wildly.

 

 

[Andrew Reid]

The AF is fast as a whippet in good light and L-mount lens, but it's very variable!

It is very unreliable with Canon lenses through MC-21 so not like a Sony in that regard.

But it is a big step from the Fp when the conditions are right!

I have a Panasonic 24-105mm S lens to play with so will give that a go on the Fp-L next.

Here's where I think the main appeal of the Fp-L is though...

1 - Small manual focus lenses, with ability to crop into that enormous 9.5K full frame sensor... especially in 4K mode where resolution is pretty constant until over double your FOV. Handy to have a tiny 35mm F2 Leica M mount lens on there and use it like a pocket size 35-70mm F2!

2 - Landscape photography. Very nice results for that. Wider range of photography with artificial lights is a bit of a faff though because of the rolling shutter and banding under a lot of electric light sources.

3 - The Cinema DNG factor. In 8bit it can be a bit ropey in the highlights but the 12bit files are THICK. Also the full frame RAW stands up really well even though it is pixel binned from 9.5K, I can barely tell a difference to oversampled 4K. Aliasing is really well controlled and it doesn't lack detail!

4 - I think it appeals an upgrade from the original Fp if you liked that. It is a bit on the expensive side considering it is basically a different sensor in the same box, but I do think it is quite unique to have 12bit Cinema DNG (with an SSD) + 61 megapixel stills in one pocket size body running off a GH2 battery. Bit easier and cheaper than using a RED!

5 - The EVF is definitely a quality piece, but not a reason to get the Fp-L over original Fp since it now works with both. The viewfinder is massive and very high res.

[FHDcrew]

10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The AF is fast as a whippet in good light and L-mount lens, but it's very variable!

It is very unreliable with Canon lenses through MC-21 so not like a Sony in that regard.

But it is a big step from the Fp when the conditions are right!

I have a Panasonic 24-105mm S lens to play with so will give that a go on the Fp-L next.

Here's where I think the main appeal of the Fp-L is though...

1 - Small manual focus lenses, with ability to crop into that enormous 9.5K full frame sensor... especially in 4K mode where resolution is pretty constant until over double your FOV. Handy to have a tiny 35mm F2 Leica M mount lens on there and use it like a pocket size 35-70mm F2!

2 - Landscape photography. Very nice results for that. Wider range of photography with artificial lights is a bit of a faff though because of the rolling shutter and banding under a lot of electric light sources.

3 - The Cinema DNG factor. In 8bit it can be a bit ropey in the highlights but the 12bit files are THICK. Also the full frame RAW stands up really well even though it is pixel binned from 9.5K, I can barely tell a difference to oversampled 4K. Aliasing is really well controlled and it doesn't lack detail!

4 - I think it appeals an upgrade from the original Fp if you liked that. It is a bit on the expensive side considering it is basically a different sensor in the same box, but I do think it is quite unique to have 12bit Cinema DNG (with an SSD) + 61 megapixel stills in one pocket size body running off a GH2 battery. Bit easier and cheaper than using a RED!

5 - The EVF is definitely a quality piece, but not a reason to get the Fp-L over original Fp since it now works with both. The viewfinder is massive and very high res.

Interesting to hear the AF can be that good. So what camera do you find it can compare with, when using L mount lenses?  I assume best performance is found using Sigma L mount lenses. Andrew I encourage you to make a brief AF test and upload it to YT for us all to see; the AF tests I can find are usually all with the really old firmware. 
Is there a camera out you find the AF compares with?  I know you had a Nikon Z6/Z7 (can’t remember which).  Does it compare in AF speed/reliability (in well lit sceneries with optimal lenses) to those original Z cameras?  Asking because I shoot with a Z6; if sigma fp l AF can compare than that’s all I need from AF. 

[MrSMW]

I’d like to see the FP-L with the Panny 24-105 f4. That would cover the lack of IBIS for one thing.

Rear tilt mounted Ninja V would open up options AND compensate (improve upon even) the lack of a tilt screen.

[FHDcrew]

How does the video AF compare to a Nikon Z6?  Assuming optimal, non-adapted sigma or Panasonic L mount lenses are used. Basically can it smoothly track a face?

[Andrew Reid]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I’d like to see the FP-L with the Panny 24-105 f4. That would cover the lack of IBIS for one thing.

Rear tilt mounted Ninja V would open up options AND compensate (improve upon even) the lack of a tilt screen.

Stabilisation seems to work pretty well at first try. The camera feels pretty unbalanced with large lenses though.

Also there is one major annoyance I am having...

In stills mode mainly.

To avoid banding with the electronic shutter in stills mode under artificial light I really have to use one shutter speed... 1/50 for 50hz PAL countries.

So it really limits your exposure options for stills.

Out come the NDs pretty much all the time.

Not too bad for video as ND with 180 degree shutter is kinda default for most people.

But I've had a lot of stills shots ruined because I used Aperture priority mode and something like 1/60 shutter or 1/250. Probably the worst possible camera for sports and event photography!

For photography the Sigma Fp line will get a lot better if they progress to having a global shutter or stacked sensor in there.

[FHDcrew]

46 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Stabilisation seems to work pretty well at first try. The camera feels pretty unbalanced with large lenses though.

Also there is one major annoyance I am having...

In stills mode mainly.

To avoid banding with the electronic shutter in stills mode under artificial light I really have to use one shutter speed... 1/50 for 50hz PAL countries.

So it really limits your exposure options for stills.

Out come the NDs pretty much all the time.

Not too bad for video as ND with 180 degree shutter is kinda default for most people.

But I've had a lot of stills shots ruined because I used Aperture priority mode and something like 1/60 shutter or 1/250. Probably the worst possible camera for sports and event photography!

For photography the Sigma Fp line will get a lot better if they progress to having a global shutter or stacked sensor in there.

How is video autofocus with the 24-105?  Can you post example footage?  The AF is really what I’m interested in. 

[MrSMW]

57 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

In stills mode mainly.

Yes, when I tested it last year, anything outdoor not moving, no problem.

Indoors, event photography, no chance. It’s one of the worst cameras on the planet in that regard, - you can’t just go shoot with it.

So it’s only the video side I am personally interested in, but then after my last 3 weddings, I have gone back to shooting hybrid as I am getting more consistent results with…of all my cameras, the S1R’s, shooting the Natural profile, in 8 bit 4K 50p.

They are pretty sticky in the AF department so S1H and S5 have gone back to static video only duty.