NAB update: Exclusive interview with Blackmagic Cine shooter John Brawley / Panasonic AF100 successor 'deleted'...?

[Tzedekh]

[quote author=markm link=topic=600.msg4244#msg4244 date=1334760888]
Jan

Thank you for responding to this thread! Would love to see more of you here.

Will there be a follow up model to the AF100 I appreciate the camera was initially a ground breaker in terms of being the first camera to offer a large sensor and the camera was a reasonable cost. It would be fantastic to see a new upgraded version in the four thirds format that gives a better sensor more latitude and 10 bit out.
[/quote]
Notice how she says that the [i]AF100[/i] isn't dead? Well, of course it isn't. Panasonic is hoping to generate new revenues by charging $250 to add AVCHD 2.0 capability to it. The camera isn't dead until the last one stops functioning. By this measure, even the DVX100 is still alive.

She talked about the 4K camera and AVC-Ultra. What she didn't say is that there will be an AF100 successor, especially in the m4/3 format, at a comparable (or cheaper) price point. It was anticipated last year. Now, two years after the AF100 was announced, there's still no successor. It seems that with a little effort, the AF100's sensor (or, preferably, an improved update) could've been coupled with the HPX250's 10-bit P2/AVC-Intra 100 guts to produce a $6K camera. But no. So, I think the basic premise of Andrew Reid's post is valid and the AF line ends with the AF100.

[Simco123]

So who has or going to pre-order the Blackmagic?

[Giovanni Bertani]

[/quote]

Wrong - £2400. I just ordered at CVP. Links are on the Black Magic Design site.
[/quote]


Cvp?

[markm]

Yes its often the way representatives speak. You have to read carefully. I'm pretty sure there will be no AF100 replacement as a consequence four thirds could be a casualty. Hope not but thats my opinion.

Its also funny how reps have become highly respected on forums often put on a pedestal and often petulant and aggressive to any who dare argue as the forum will ban any who do. Things have to be above board but then you also have to watch some websites like DVinfo where they are heavily subsidised by manufacturers and often shut down any honest debate or discussion that highlights obvious flaws or ask sensitive questions. Of course some forums are just plain nasty and bonkers.

I will be ordering the black magic camera. Companies like them are the future and about time too! 

[JanLivingston]

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=600.msg4243#msg4243 date=1334760423]
"The AGAF100 is not selling well and they decided to delete the new AG AF camera release. The main reason is that they now will prefer to focus on Super35mm."[/quote]

I would have to say that your source obviously has no clue as to the reality then.  As the AF100 is selling as well as its competitor and there are no plans to take it off the market.

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=600.msg4243#msg4243 date=1334760423]Now I use my logic and say - S35 is the industry standard and I get leaks from within Panasonic myself, quite often. I also don't think Panasonic's approach to the lower end of the cinema market is working at the moment, because the AF100 gets beaten for image quality by their own consumer division.[/quote]

Well I wouldn't say that, as there are issues that occur in the MOS imager on the GH2 that do not occur on the AF100.

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=600.msg4243#msg4243 date=1334760423]I have no intention to run my editorial past official lines but it helps to get in touch occasionally. It is my site and I report what I hear from the people I trust. Cheers.[/quote]

You don't have to run anything past anyone, but if you just post gossip, you get the rep of just being a Gossip page, post facts and you become the goto place for info.  All depends on what perception you want people to have of you and your site.  Most journalists corroborate their stories from more than one source.

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=600.msg4243#msg4243 date=1334760423]P2 media is desirable only for the very high end of broadcast who need the standardised infrastructure.
[/quote]

Well I can assure that the reason that we got the Emmy Award for Solid State recording was not entirely based on Broadcaster use.  The number of HVX200s out there in the Indy field far out number those in the Broadcast domain, by at least 30:1.  And its primary purpose is the reliability and robust nature of the storage.

Best,

Jan

[JanLivingston]

[quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=600.msg4248#msg4248 date=1334767568]
Notice how she says that the [i]AF100[/i] isn't dead? Well, of course it isn't. Panasonic is hoping to generate new revenues by charging $250 to add AVCHD 2.0 capability to it. The camera isn't dead until the last one stops functioning. By this measure, even the DVX100 is still alive.[/quote]

When a camera stops selling it is dead, regardless of whether there are a slew of them in the market place that are still working, but as long as new serial numbers are being created, and there are, it is still very much a viable camera in in its price point.

[quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=600.msg4248#msg4248 date=1334767568]She talked about the 4K camera and AVC-Ultra. What she didn't say is that there will be an AF100 successor, especially in the m4/3 format, at a comparable (or cheaper) price point. It was anticipated last year. [/quote]


Well that would have been difficult to anticipate last year since the camera has only been delivering for 15 months.  That would be a very short life span.

[quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=600.msg4248#msg4248 date=1334767568]Now, two years after the AF100 was announced, there's still no successor. [/quote]

We announced the fact we were going to make it at NAB 2010, the first one did not deliver until December 2010.  That is way too short of a time frame for a new camera.

[quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=600.msg4248#msg4248 date=1334767568]It seems that with a little effort, the AF100's sensor (or, preferably, an improved update) could've been coupled with the HPX250's 10-bit P2/AVC-Intra 100 guts to produce a $6K camera. But no. So, I think the basic premise of Andrew Reid's post is valid and the AF line ends with the AF100.[/quote]

I think this would be interesting as a camera but not as interesting as where it really needs to be to maintain a competitive edge for the few years it needs to after release.  All cameras do have to pay for their R & D. That said, I am not really at liberty to discuss new products that are not on the NAB floor.  And while you can choose to go along and believe the rumor that Andrew has started here, it is simply incorrect.

Best regards,

Jan

[FilmMan]

Camera:  Panasonic AG-AF100
[size=18pt]The Raid: Redemption [/size]

[markm]

Okay so no new replacement for the AF100.

I feel panasonic have made a bad move here. Although they could never have foreseen Black magics devasting move I believe manufacturers should have treated their customers better.

Whats wrong with a decent sensor 10 bit out Nd filters 1080p eh? Why not bring out what the public want instead of creating a desire for a format like 4k that ups the price for something most of us dont need.

Black Magic saw the gaping hole So have all the periphal maufactures doing great business thanks to the protectionism going on and seeming collusion between the big names.

The only people they are really hurting though is themselves and in the end companies like Black Magic are the future.

HMM HONEST FORUMS????? Like DVINFO Perhaps??? When manufacturers are paying forums for advertising isnt there a conflict of interest. I don't think manufacturers should be subsidising forums. Bad enough on review sites which leaves them open to dishonesty. I believe forums should be public debating arenas and as such should be neutral.

[Andrew Reid]

[quote author=JanLivingston link=topic=600.msg4254#msg4254 date=1334769831]
[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=600.msg4243#msg4243 date=1334760423]
"The AGAF100 is not selling well and they decided to delete the new AG AF camera release. The main reason is that they now will prefer to focus on Super35mm."[/quote]

I would have to say that your source obviously has no clue as to the reality then.  As the AF100 is selling as well as its competitor and there are no plans to take it off the market.

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=600.msg4243#msg4243 date=1334760423]Now I use my logic and say - S35 is the industry standard and I get leaks from within Panasonic myself, quite often. I also don't think Panasonic's approach to the lower end of the cinema market is working at the moment, because the AF100 gets beaten for image quality by their own consumer division.[/quote]

Well I wouldn't say that, as there are issues that occur in the MOS imager on the GH2 that do not occur on the AF100.

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=600.msg4243#msg4243 date=1334760423]I have no intention to run my editorial past official lines but it helps to get in touch occasionally. It is my site and I report what I hear from the people I trust. Cheers.[/quote]

You don't have to run anything past anyone, but if you just post gossip, you get the rep of just being a Gossip page, post facts and you become the goto place for info.  All depends on what perception you want people to have of you and your site.  Most journalists corroborate their stories from more than one source.

[quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=600.msg4243#msg4243 date=1334760423]P2 media is desirable only for the very high end of broadcast who need the standardised infrastructure.
[/quote]

Well I can assure that the reason that we got the Emmy Award for Solid State recording was not entirely based on Broadcaster use.  The number of HVX200s out there in the Indy field far out number those in the Broadcast domain, by at least 30:1.  And its primary purpose is the reliability and robust nature of the storage.

Best,

Jan
[/quote]

Well I appreciate your time taken to address this, for sure. But we have a few differences of opinion, mainly due to different perspectives. The mass market who want pro video aren't interested in winning Emmy Awards. The reason the 5D Mark II is such a sales success is because it puts pro stills quality in the hands of the masses. What about pro video sub $6000? Nobody apart from the Lumix team and Blackmagic Design are truly doing this in the video world and innovating. I was far more positive about the AF100 when it was first to the market, for a pretty reasonable price relative to what Canon did with the C300. Since then better options have arrived like the Sony FS100 and Panasonic are not moving fast enough, they are being too conservative. I don't think someone at the $3000 or $6000 mark will be willing to buy as many cameras as they have pairs of underwear! Once you lose these customers you will lose them for a good 3-4 years. The AF100 currently just is not compelling enough, you need to listen to a much more progressive set of filmmakers and cater for them. DVXUser represents the old guard and consumers. It is not representative of what is truly happening out there in the sub $6000 filmmaking market place.

The GH2's sensor (or one of similar spec) is being offered right now by Panasonic in Japan as a component to third parties, along with the ASIC. It seems Panasonic would rather foster competition than crush it. This is commendable but they need to watch their back.

And by the way, I am more than happy to pay for good design! By all means have a premium line for the most compelling stuff - but put imagination ahead of the facts occasionally.

[christianhubbard]

[quote author=JanLivingston link=topic=600.msg4255#msg4255 date=1334770589]
[quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=600.msg4248#msg4248 date=1334767568]
Notice how she says that the [i]AF100[/i] isn't dead? Well, of course it isn't. Panasonic is hoping to generate new revenues by charging $250 to add AVCHD 2.0 capability to it. The camera isn't dead until the last one stops functioning. By this measure, even the DVX100 is still alive.[/quote]

When a camera stops selling it is dead, regardless of whether there are a slew of them in the market place that are still working, but as long as new serial numbers are being created, and there are, it is still very much a viable camera in in its price point.

[quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=600.msg4248#msg4248 date=1334767568]She talked about the 4K camera and AVC-Ultra. What she didn't say is that there will be an AF100 successor, especially in the m4/3 format, at a comparable (or cheaper) price point. It was anticipated last year. [/quote]


Well that would have been difficult to anticipate last year since the camera has only been delivering for 15 months.  That would be a very short life span.

[quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=600.msg4248#msg4248 date=1334767568]Now, two years after the AF100 was announced, there's still no successor. [/quote]

We announced the fact we were going to make it at NAB 2010, the first one did not deliver until December 2010.  That is way too short of a time frame for a new camera.

[quote author=Tzedekh link=topic=600.msg4248#msg4248 date=1334767568]It seems that with a little effort, the AF100's sensor (or, preferably, an improved update) could've been coupled with the HPX250's 10-bit P2/AVC-Intra 100 guts to produce a $6K camera. But no. So, I think the basic premise of Andrew Reid's post is valid and the AF line ends with the AF100.[/quote]

I think this would be interesting as a camera but not as interesting as where it really needs to be to maintain a competitive edge for the few years it needs to after release.  All cameras do have to pay for their R & D. That said, I am not really at liberty to discuss new products that are not on the NAB floor.  And while you can choose to go along and believe the rumor that Andrew has started here, it is simply incorrect.

Best regards,

Jan
[/quote]

I really don't understand why it matters how long the af100 has been in production.

The camera isnt any good.
Why on earth would I buy an af100 when I could buy a GH2 and get a better image?

And PLEASE don't limit the GH3's potential.
doing so WILL NOT HELP.

Putting limits on the gh3 in order to help make an af100 successor 'stand out' in the eyes of panasonic will just cause me to jump ship from panasonic entirely and you will lose my business for a good 3-5 years as andrew has stated.

[Sara]

christianhubbard is right - Panasonic better be VERY careful about putting limits on their future products - Companies like BM will gladly take their business (watch out for Samsung also - don't laugh, they have the money and production facilities to produce their own sensors and sell them to a small company for use in Cinema tools).

GH2's are popular BECAUSE of the hack - and m4/3s lenses sell BECAUSE of the hack (at least where I live).

[MaxAperture Films]

I commend Jan for taking her message "to the street" and engaging the camera blogging community, however this engagement seems highly combative and a bit of a turn-off from my perspective.  Followers of EOSHD and Andrew's well-reasoned perspective have come to trust his perception of the marketplace through knowledge of his exceptional cinematography work, in-depth equipment reviews (mostly favorable to Panasonic products) and thirst for VALUE in [capable] gear above all else.

With all due respect Jan, Panasonic should not wait to respond to a changing market because "15 months is too short for a product cycle."  With that attitude and vision you'd be better served to instead welcome Black Magic into the m43 consortium to make a mount for their camera that helps you sell more of your glass, because when we shift our focus to a new camera manufacturer that is addressing our production needs we would be foolish not to go where the true VALUE is.

After all, we are also professionals who have a market to compete in, and our desire is to meet the demands of our customers regardless of what we felt was good enough 15 months ago.  Disruptive technology beckons change and WE get it, do YOU?

[Simco123]

I don't rate GH2 video that highly for bright outdoor use. Is Af100 much worse?

[markm]

I believe Jan only came here to put right what she has called the rumour that panasonic are pulling the plug on four thirds. That I believe is her only reason. We do not constitute a trusted site like DVinfo and therefore should not expect her to debate here.

TRUST me DVinfo would have stopped the free flow debate already AND any criticism of a trusted panasonic rep. Some here would have been warned or lost their forum membership already.

The reality is This is an open debating site and those who get subsidised by the manufacturers are not. Until manufacturers stop paying forums how on earth can anyone trust the people who run them from making sure the right lines are towed?

[FilmMan]

The film community isn't asking for the world.  BM is giving a taste of what should have been coming from the big boys.  Why is a small entity leading the charge???  People can read.  People can see.  People know what is good and what is not.  Companies must be aware of what the consumers want.  This is 2012.  The market speaks.  Sony has shown their cards and seems to be listening.  BM is coming on the scene with their brand new camera.  If a company gives a quality detail image at 1080p, with a few other desired specs  (better codec, or raw, useable with current lenses, etc) then consumers will buy.  The 5D2 is an excellent camera.  But the detail could be better.  The codec could be better.  Canon decided not to provide at this price level.  Not asking much.  The 5D3 falls short.  Most people are aware.  People know the detail the GH2 gives.  People aren't stupid. 

[markm]

Film man I think Sony are one of the worst offenders.

Where is Sony's large sensor Cam with 1080p 10 bit 4,2,2 out with ND filters and Slog? or even just a few cine gamas? for the masses?

Oh yes its all wrapped up in its gold plated £11000 F3 with £2500 for slog and another dip for an outboard recorder that has to be 4,4,4 meaning another £5000 to get 13 stops. Add in another £3000 each for the often slow zeiss primes or £7000 if you want a zoom lens that you'll have to get rid of if you want another camera. Or you could go for a nice £15000 zoom

Oh yes Sony have made sure they and the peripherals are the only large sensor game in town. Less of course you want to pay £8000 for their 8 bit out smaller brother and you want to get the 4k thrill ride down wallet alley.

Compare that to Black Magic's £3000 camera with it's 12 bit and 13 stops and  raw recorder as well as numerous other functions indie film makers have been crying out for.

[popalock]

@markm - the BM is priced at £2310 including VAT in the UK

Question I've got to all those who bought a 5D3; who's gonna sell up now, and if not, why not? Seriously am interested in the reasons for sticking with Canon (from a video perspective)

[OlegKalyan]

I own two GH2 and AF100. I like the hacked GH2 in a low ISO up to 640.. then AF100 is the king, great cam that needs to set up correctly.. can't wait when it's updated with the new filmware..
going to compare it with FS100 some time soon, to me very similar images those cams produce..

[FilmMan]

Markm,

With regards to Sony:
Canon's C300 is priced almost double to the Sony FS700.  Sony is giving some items which are useful.  4k downsampled to 1080p - so similar to Canon C300.  Also slow motion.  Yea, they could have given other goodies, but it is a start.  When I'm talking about Sony, it is in the context of the next camera level up.  I'm not talking about  the $3K camera market range .  I can see where the confusion can arise.

I'll stand by my statement, Sony has shown their cards and [i][b]seems to be listening[/b][/i]

[Astro]

Forums are a place where people get to express their views.
Somehow or other tho...Canon, Panasonic and Sony to a lesser degree dont seem to be listening, maybe they are too bound up in corporate planning and structuring...I dont know.
But its very obvious that there is a gap in the market for a good camera that will fill most of the needs of Indie film makers etc...Blackmagic appear to be seeing this huge gap that is more or less being ignored by the large Japanese Corporations, but they are not invincible, if they dont hear the message...they will miss out on a huge opportunity.
If for example Panansonic limit their GH3 too much in order to protect their more expensive Cameras, I guess I will look elsewhere for an upgrade path.
But if for example Panansonic was actually capable of listening and bit the bullet and made the GH3 as a really solid move forward for DLSR film makers and the like, addressing some of the concerns here and on other forums, they would probably kill it with that camera.
But I am somehow doubtfull they will do this, Corporations always seem to move slowly and very conservatively, and this leaves the market open for companies like Blackmagic.
Kudos to Andrew tho...for having the balls to speak out about this, I find his blogs refreshingly honest...wether some agree or not.
Cheers