Full frame Sony A7S with 1.1x sensor crop in 4K mode and XAVC-S codec

[ScreensPro]

Did they "hold back" with 240p in the FS700?

Did they "hold back" with amazing 1080p in the FS100?

Did they "hold back" allowing the 4K RAW of the FS700 being allowed onto a much cheaper recording option than their own?

 

Sony are a pretty progressive company, in my eyes.

 

People need to learn that datarate usually gets limited, not because of greed or crippling, but because it's a consumer product that needs to have mass appeal and not cause constant customer service complaints about the camera not working with a cheap SD card from Best Buy.

 

The fact they are launching it at NAB suggests we might be in for some pro options though, even if it is via the hdmi slot.

[larsouille]

full frame with 4230x2820 pixels means the pixel size will be 8.5µm... it's huge... 70% more surface than the 5dmarkIII (6.5µm)...

if it's true it will be a low light killer

 

it's a pity Sony use XAVC S instead of XAVC... we will lose the 10 or 12bits, the 4:2:2... :-/

I suppose they don't want to encroach on their professionnal market

[joe1946]

I would be satisfied with XAVC-S 4K at 60fps and 150Mbps bit-rate like the AX1. The new Sandisk UHS-II cards would handle that without a problem.

[jurgen]

Why do people take any of Andrews words seriously?  

Andrew says "I also did some research on XAVC-S. It records in MP4 format but perhaps rather disturbingly it has a much lower bitrate than the GH4′s 4K codec. It is just 60Mbit/s vs 100Mbit/s on the GH4 in Ultra HD."  He did his research eh?.  

 

Then explain the Sony FDR-AX1's 150M/bit XAVC-S in which a 1 minute research would find and I quote, "In order to provide 4K video recording in a consumer model, Sony designed the FDR-AX1 to support the XAVC-S 4K/HD recording format which is usually reserved for professional applications. However, since the XAVC-S codec will save as an MP4 wrapper, you can still create web-friendly videos that can be easily shared on social media sites like YouTube. Another highlight of the XAVC-S recording format is its ability to record images at 150 Mbps in 4K".  

 

Seriously, do your homework Andrew.  

 

 

I don't know, there are always factual errors in every one of Andrew's posts. Like the one about the GH4 being 'the first 4K camera for $2000'... Uhm, nah. 

There's no need for petty sniping. Seriously. If you think someone made a mistake, and you feel like you can offer a correction, there are far more civil ways to open a dialogue, ways that might actually be of benefit to the discussion as a whole.

You need to chill out.

[leo]

Did they "hold back" with 240p in the FS700?

Did they "hold back" with amazing 1080p in the FS100?

Did they "hold back" allowing the 4K RAW of the FS700 being allowed onto a much cheaper recording option than their own?

 

Sony are a pretty progressive company, in my eyes.

 

People need to learn that datarate usually gets limited, not because of greed or crippling, but because it's a consumer product that needs to have mass appeal and not cause constant customer service complaints about the camera not working with a cheap SD card from Best Buy.

 

The fact they are launching it at NAB suggests we might be in for some pro options though, even if it is via the hdmi slot.

Do you know how much a FS700 costs ? do you know how much it costs with a cheap 4k recorder ? 

Let me help you 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/963240-REG/convergent_design_odyssey7q_odyssey_7_q_monitor_recorder.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1010153-REG/sony_nex_fs700r_4k_nxcam_super_35mm.html

So, 10.000 $ for body and 4k external recorder that captures at 8 bit raw, not 10 bit like a cheap gh4 - 1700 $

http://philipbloom.net/2014/04/04/7q/

What can i say, Canon doesn't hold out eighter if you drop 10k or more, but at 2-3k you won't see any miracles.

I am excited about this FX 4k camera but as always sony can ruin it, 4k at 60mb/s, i don't know, in full HD would mean 15 mb/s, seems quite low for grading.

[Andrew Reid]

Sorry for the 60Mbit confusion. Indeed the codec is not limited to that. The AX100 is. The paragraph should have read as follows and I have corrected it in the article...

 

I also did some research on the AX100's implementation of XAVC-S. It records in MP4 format but perhaps rather disturbingly it has a much lower bitrate than the GH4's 4K codec. It is just 60Mbit/s vs 100Mbit/s on the GH4 in Ultra HD. I have not yet graded any footage from the Sony AX100 but it will be interesting to see how XAVC-S stands up at that bitrate. It is a very modern codec and bitrate isn't everything.

[Andrew Reid]

On the snipers, it isn't so much the fact they point out an error as the sheer hatred and bitterness in which they do it. I don't want a forum full of people like this, therefore both users have been banned permanently.

[Andrew Reid]

By the way Sony Alpha Rumors seems to have copied my info! But they made a mistake which needs clarifying...

 

They suggested no 'clean' 4K to the SD card.

 

'Clean' means free of icons and text.

 

Unless you can't turn the date stamp off I highly doubt the SD card recording of 4K XAVC isn't 'clean'.

[Julian]

By the way Sony Alpha Rumors seems to have copied my info almost verbatim without crediting. But they made a glaring mistake which needs clarifying...

 

They suggested no 'clean' 4K to the SD card.

 

'Clean' means free of icons and text.

 

Unless you can't turn the date stamp off I highly doubt the SD card recording of 4K XAVC isn't 'clean'.

 

Sounds like something that got 'lost in translation'.

 

I don't see how SAR copied your info btw...

[Andrew Reid]

First I mentioned 4K (look at the date of the article) then after they say 4K too.

 

Then I mention XAVC-S, which 5 hours later appears there too.

 

Forgive me for the paranoia :)

 

Next I may mention BS-detection mode and XABCXYZ codec and see if it ends up on any other sites too.

[Julian]

It could even be the same source... if SAR just copy pasted your info, he would have mentioned the 4230 x 2820 pixel size.

XAVC-S is kind of obvious anyway. I don't see anything 'verbatim' on SAR that was written here in the same words...

 

No need to get paranoid. Sunday it'll be all over anyway :)

[jurgen]

I've seen some people tossing around the notion that lower total pixel count (and the implied greater pixel pitch) doesn't necessarily improve low light performance. Is this true, or potentially true (not necessarily for this camera, but in general)? 

[Andrew Reid]

[Husah]

Well first I mentioned 4K (look at the date of the article), then immediately after they proclaim 4K.

 

Then I mention XAVC-S (again look at the date stamp), then 3 hours later up pops the same info on there without credit.

 

Next I may mention BS-detection mode and XABCXYZ codec and see if it ends up on any other sites too.

 

 

A lot of people feed stuff to SAR. He probably doesn't even realize that some of the stuff he is being fed comes from someone copying it from your site.

 

He usually always credits the sites  

[Andrew Reid]

I've seen some people tossing around the notion that lower total pixel count (and the implied greater pixel pitch) doesn't necessarily improve low light performance. Is this true, or potentially true (not necessarily for this camera, but in general)? 

 

For video it definitely does.

 

For stills, depends on print size. 36MP loses some low light performance but the oversampling makes up for it. Like going 4k to 1080p.

 

Other thing that matters is the pixel design, micro lenses and gaps between pixels. For example Blackmagic Production Camera has only 8MP but tiny pixels because most of the space on the sensor is taken up by global shutter circuitry.

[Nikkor]

I wonder which features this sensor has. There were rumours about a foveon type sensor. If that's true these 12mp will look a lot better color wise than normal bayer sensors. (although sigma foveons have bad low light capabilities)

There was also a rumour about a sony camera with a moving sensor which focuses by shifting the sensor, not the lens. I can only see this happening on close to infinity ranges, anything getting into macro region needs huge traslations. These movements also would be used for stabilisation.

I can imagine that sony could be tempted to come up with expensive recorders for raw,sdi,etc... similar to the gh4 brick, since they have been doing some very agressive steps with the A7 line it could be possible.

 

But in the end it probably will be another shitty codec cam like the rx10 ;)

[Flynn]

Hey Andrew, just wanted to thank you for the awesome website and forum. I cringed when I read the comments by the two incredibly rude and ungrateful people who are now (properly) banned. As someone pointed out, you're not the NY Times. You don't have a huge staff behind you to fact check everything you say, this is a one man operation. We're all human and mistakes are bound to happen. To insult you and act like it's a capital offense when you get something wrong is nuts. I know dustylense from dvxuser and think he's a better person than that. I really hope he reaches out to you and apologizes. Kind of in disbelief at the things he's said. You can disagree with someone or correct an error without coming across as a total jackass.

[maxotics]

I wonder which features this sensor has. There were rumours about a foveon type sensor. If that's true these 12mp will look a lot better color wise than normal bayer sensors. (although sigma foveons have bad low light capabilities)

 

As a Sigma aficionado, I doubt very much they would use a Foveon sensor, as good as they are in still photography.  As a purist, Foveon does sensors right, it samples light in horizontal layers, blue, green then red.  It means you don't need any debayering, all you have to do is combine those values and you have a true 3-color pixel.  In theory ;)

 

In practice, the red layer gets so little light, sitting beneath the other two, that it's signal must be amplified and luma information from the top two layers must be used to negotiate a true color for the three.  There is also a problem that when light angles into the sensor it creates distortions.  I don't know the half of it.  What I do know is that the video on Foveon cameras is worse than the worst video you can imagine.  Why they even put video onto the camera is a mystery to me.  The write times of RAW images on those cameras, or at least the latest one I have DP1M, with the best Sandisk card, is around 11 seconds! And though you can still take photos until the buffer fills up you can't preview images, etc.  The write time is long, most theorize, because a lot of computations have to be made before converting the analogue signals to digital.  Other research by Bill Claff shows that the nothing changes in the sensor from a change in ISO.  Everything is shot at 100, the metadata is used, if you set higher, by post-processing.

 

Recently, Sigma/Foveon is coming out with a new camera that has a more detailed top layer.  Again, stuff to make your head explode.  I could see something similar in sensor design from Sony, maybe a top layer of pixels for focus, who knows!  But a Foveon sensor... inconceivable :)

[Groundless]

4K  mirror-less 

creating a verbal mess

to shoot or snipe?

to hoot or gripe?

4k may it liberate 'ess

 

Andrew let the B.S. dissolve into whence it came.

Keep sharing...

 

Your intention is the most important thing! You are not trying to deceive anyone.

 

It's wonderful how crazy we all become about 'new' gear and it's pro & cons. But they are simply tools to show & tell....

 

So sorry for the very poor 'almost limerick! I did not fact check any of this either.

 

cheers,

 

 Here's to the year of affordable 4K possibilities let the shoot outs begin!

 

 

[Andrew Reid]

No poetry on the forums ;)