Panasonic GH4 vs Sony A7S compared - who wins the 4K battle on paper?

[jypfoto]

Well, Sony, as usual protect their pro line. They obviously did not want to offer 4K out of the box, or 10-bit output for just this reason. I am a happy m43 owner myself, but I know technically, Sony could easily match Panasonic on the electronics end - IF THEY WANTED TO. 
 
I bought into Nex before m43, hoping that Sony would either open up the codec a bit themselves, or someone would hack it, but no such luck, so my 5n is relegated to my more bizarre hobbies of infrared and ultraviolet photography (had the hotmirror removed), while my GH3 does all the normal photography and video.
 
I really want the GH4 down the line, though disappointed in lack of IBIS, but I do believe Panasonic actually had a problem getting a stable system that will not overheat if they included this. I don't think they did it to leave something out.

That big if is the problem that I'm starting to have with Apple products and why I soured on Sony products. It seems every year with each release of the iPhone for example they add features that most likely could've been in the previous model. The first few products were ground breaking, with each release it's a smaller upgrade and because people tolerate and buy it regardless there's little incentive for them to push themselves further. I don't blame them if that were my business I'd probably so the same thing, but at some point it's going to alienate your consumer base.

The same for Sony. They are making great strides while Canon and Nikon seem to be resting on their brand reputation. They add some more FPS, some better ISO performance, while making little other advancements. Eventually they'll lose their market share. People have been waiting for a 7DM2 for what... 4 years now? And a mythical D400 for even longer?

But Sony seems to tease us with what they could do and hold back. I'm sure that there are some that would've liked the a7s before they bought the a7 or a7r. Or some that would like 4k internally. But don't worry in about 6-8 Sony will magically stumble pon a new algorithm that will solve internal heating issues and issue a a7i, an a7s that could do the same thing as a a7s but internally, similar to the RX1 and a few months later removing the AA filter and calling it the RX1R, but people bought it so Sony was thrilled.

[Melbourne Park]

A clue is in the body. It is A7 based with same shutter. It doesn't have the more expensive trimmings of the A7R body.

 

Therefore I am expecting the price to be around about the A7 level, which would be a steal.

 

The recorder is likely to be the more expensive part... but still considering the end spec you are getting - full frame 4K ProRes 4:2:2 with 14 stop dynamic range... it ain't bad.

 

 

Shame about the shutter IMO - I am used to quiet ones. 

 

There is a difference to the body that you didn't mention: the bayonet is made from stainless, for Sony's expectation of some heavy lenses being used. 

[Melbourne Park]

That big if is the problem that I'm starting to have with Apple products and why I soured on Sony products. It seems every year with each release of the iPhone for example they add features that most likely could've been in the previous model. The first few products were ground breaking, with each release it's a smaller upgrade and because people tolerate and buy it regardless there's little incentive for them to push themselves further. I don't blame them if that were my business I'd probably so the same thing, but at some point it's going to alienate your consumer base.

The same for Sony. They are making great strides while Canon and Nikon seem to be resting on their brand reputation. They add some more FPS, some better ISO performance, while making little other advancements. Eventually they'll lose their market share. People have been waiting for a 7DM2 for what... 4 years now? And a mythical D400 for even longer?

But Sony seems to tease us with what they could do and hold back. I'm sure that there are some that would've liked the a7s before they bought the a7 or a7r. Or some that would like 4k internally. But don't worry in about 6-8 Sony will magically stumble pon a new algorithm that will solve internal heating issues and issue a a7i, an a7s that could do the same thing as a a7s but internally, similar to the RX1 and a few months later removing the AA filter and calling it the RX1R, but people bought it so Sony was thrilled.

Actually Apple is case to make note of, on how to do things. 

 

Incidentally, their IOS phone software provided heaps of new features to my old iPhone 4, which my mother now uses. It did not get Siri - but Apple would not allow it on the old phone, Apple said because it would not be reliable on the old, slow CPU. But the software upgrades were free, and provided heaps of new features, and even more speed. 

 

Apple is interesting, because - at least under Steve Jobs - they were not afraid to hurt a current profitable business or market, by introducing an alternative product that challenged the established cash cow business. The iPad hurt notebook sales, and it cost a lot less. And that is Canon and Nikon's issues - they are heroically protecting their mirror / prism cameras. They have their heads in the sand, and they are stuck to the past. 

 

I'm amused that people here are praising their Canon 5D Mkwatevers. I had a MkII, and it was a huge tank. HUGE ... 

 

This Sony A7 S - it weighs less than a GH-4. With a battery, its under 500 grams. And the A7 line has a choice of three, full frame sensors. This is a dream for many people - light weight, and a choice of full frame sensors. 

 

As Canon and Nikon users well know - the key for being a prisoner of your system, is the amount of money you spent on your lenses. But this Sony platform allows people to at least use the glass they own - although it won't work very easily ... but it will allow the light through!! Try other platforms glass on your Canikon DSLRs!

 

The key for me with the A7, is not the camera itself. Compared to the cost of cameras 20 years ago, this A7 line is cheap. Very cheap. The real issue with such platforms though, is that ultimately its about the lenses, because they cost the real money. If I buy into the A7 concept, with the proliferation of bodies and upgrades that will ultimately come, that is not at all a threat to me. Its a benefit to me. Because the more new models sold, the more niches that Sony attack, then the more lenses will be made, and the safer my investment in lenses will be, because ultimately its lenses that make a system succeed. And perhaps the FF sensor does have a lot of advantages outside of tele and sports stills.  But for video, the benefits of mirrorless combined with light sensitive sensors are irresistible. Nikon and Canon are prisoners of old technology, and their customers are stuck with a concept that simply is inferior for video.

 

But this A7 line, while we can complain about its lacking 4K inside - don't forget that it has stuck to its golden mission - and that is light weight. No doubt new models and probably a heavier A9 body may come later I assume. And that will be a good thing, as will MkII & MkIII A7s. New models are good for a platform, and they don't make our old model any worse. 

 

For me, the only threat to satisfaction with a Sony A7S, is Nikon (or even Canon) coming out with a FF mirrorless, and providing it with heaps of lenses and great compatibility with their DSLR lenses. If Bill Gates was running Canon, he'd have shown the new FF mirrorless mock-up already, and explained how it would handle all your old lenses. This is what crippled Word Perfect and the rest of the word processor companies, as Microsoft kept promising that their new software would be so much better, you just have to wait a while for it, and in the meantime, the competition went broke. 

 

But Canikon are too locked into the their DSLRs to be serious, and they've continued to leave the door wide open to Four Thirds and some APS-C others but most significantly now, the full frame mirrorless is here, and serving great video for under 500 grams.

[Michael1]

I don't really see the big concern about the lack of internal 4K on the Sony.

 

 

 

 

I think the concern is you are buying something advertised as a 4K camera that can't actually record 4K unless you buy something as expensive as the camera itself, and carry around something as bulky as the camera itself (probably more so).  The A7S might be better termed "4K Ready".

 

Michael

[Melbourne Park]

I think the concern is you are buying something advertised as a 4K camera that can't actually record 4K unless you buy something as expensive as the camera itself, and carry around something as bulky as the camera itself (probably more so).  The A7S might be better termed "4K Ready".

 

Michael

 

It is ready for most pro users, who would not operate without a second screen and the gear that goes with it. For ProSumers, they likely don't have the home infrastructure either: powerful editing software, fast disk and computers, 4K monitors and 4K TVs. 

 

I think if you made the camera bigger, you might loose the mass market, who want something small. Plus, Sony had a form factor for this when they started - the A7 size.  Perhaps if you put in 4K, the battery life would suffer perhaps too much. Same too with perhaps with heat issues. If you put in IBIS - the issue would also be battery life IMO. If the GH-4 has IBIS, it's battery life would suffer a lot (more so with the A7's FF large sensor). The OM-D's suffer from reduced battery life - the only logical explanation is due to the OM-D's IBIS. Add that IBIS to video, and you'd need to add big grips and much bigger batteries. 

 

While a bigger A9 might solve all that, the problem for many users, would simply be that its bigger. And if the A7S had really poor battery life - the camera would be criticised by all IMO.

[johnnymossville]

I like the 4K Ready moniker. it's a really good 1080p camera.  90% of it's buyers will never record a second of 4k on it. 

[Richard Wait]

Are all the A7 cameras physically the same ? same screen, button layout, same dimensions etc??

[Julian]

Pretty much. Some small differences in materials used on the A7/A7R. Size/screen/buttons are the same.

[Melbourne Park]

Are all the A7 cameras physically the same ? same screen, button layout, same dimensions etc??

I think the 7R has all metal, and different metal rotating buttons. Its slighty lighter too. The A7 has a plastic front, and as said, different material for the rotating buttons. IMO the A7R feels much nicer. The A7S I have read has the A7 body (which indicates hopefully a lower price point than the A7R). The difference in body between the A7S and the A7, is the bayonet on the A7S is stainless instead of the alloy bayonet used on the A7 and A7R, due to the expectation of some big (third party) lenses for video by pro uses on the A7S.

[Andrew Reid]

Stainless steel huh? Well they have really thrown the kitchen sink at that camera ;)

[themartist]

What do you think of this article? "8 bit or 10 bit? The truth may surprise you"

 

http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/156-8-bit-or-10-bit-the-truth-may-surprise-you

[wolf33d]

"In a practical sense, if you’ve bought a mainstream, 8-bit professional camera, you should be happy. You probably wouldn't notice any difference if it was 10 bit."

 

...

[1tkman]

With the speed booster mentioned in this article... the option Andrew used in mounting the Sigma lens. 

 

BHPhoto offers a Nikon to BM pocket camera option for purchase and an adapter that's Nikon for Micro Four Thirds (less expensive).

 

Am I correct in thinking that for the GH4, either of these speed boosters would work?

 

Or would it be best to buy the Micro Four Thirds adapter for the GH4?

[Melbourne Park]

With the ISO power of the 12.2 MP sensor, I don't see much need in speed booster. While a stop is worthwhile on deeper depth of field sensors, with the huge ISO power of this new sensor, I'd save the money and get a cheaper adapter. 

[jasonmillard81]

The a7s looks more cinematic to my eye and the gh4 more video camera, either byproduct of m43 or panasonic codec.  What is everyone's thoughts on that?

 

Though a bit of a sidestep...how do you all feel about the 4k footage in these cameras compared to 5d3 Raw?

[Andrew Reid]

The a7s looks more cinematic to my eye and the gh4 more video camera, either byproduct of m43 or panasonic codec.  What is everyone's thoughts on that?

 

Though a bit of a sidestep...how do you all feel about the 4k footage in these cameras compared to 5d3 Raw?

 

Tell us why you think the A7S looks more cinematic then we'll address the specifics, A7S vs GH4 ok?

[wanderer63]

[themartist]

With the ISO power of the 12.2 MP sensor, I don't see much need in speed booster. While a stop is worthwhile on deeper depth of field sensors, with the huge ISO power of this new sensor, I'd save the money and get a cheaper adapter. 

Speed booster is for cropped frame sensors to replicate the FOV of a full frame. A7s is full frame - theres no using the speed booster on full frames.

[Melbourne Park]

Speed booster is for cropped frame sensors to replicate the FOV of a full frame. A7s is full frame - theres no using the speed booster on full frames.

Sure ... but how is 2K video resolved on the A7S? My understanding, is by the A7S cropping down to APS-C? Hence the full frame is not used??? Or is there binning going on?? According to what I've read, there isn't binning with 2K. 

 

So ... a speed booster on the A7S could make a Canon FF lens etc increase the ISO by one stop, by putthing an APS-c focus onto the A7S's sensor ... not worthwhile probably because the gain of one stop may not be a big deal with that S sensor. 

[aim120]

There is no need for speed booster in the A7s.

 

Just look at the video below.OMG