Nikon cinema line?

[D Verco]

Aside from possible firmware updates or, we won't see anything from that for at least 2-3 years. Unless it's just releasing a current Red camera with Z mount. 

 

[Davide DB]

It all revolves around what Nikon acquisition of Red means. Everything and the opposite of everything has been said but so far no move by the two companies other than a few statements to keep investors and customers quiet.
It all depends on whether we will have:

• A new Nikon iteration with Red technology
• A new Red iteration with Nikon technology.

Then the money always ends up in the same pockets.
 

IMO, the second option is more likely: DPs and directors are the most reactionary groups that exist.

[eatstoomuchjam]

Definitely - and there's no reason that option 2 means waiting for 2-3 years.  Assuming that Red had products in the pipeline at the time of acquisition, their timelines shouldn't be hugely impacted by Nikon saying they need to change the mount, especially since they now have direct access to Nikon's entire engineering staff.

About the only exceptions might be any products that are already getting certified (FCC, CE, etc).

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Davide DB said:

a few statements to keep investors and customers quiet

I'd rather companies made a few statements that got customers talking, positively and remaining onboard!

IMO, what is the lesser of two evils?

Over-promise and fail to deliver but at least have kept the ship afloat a while longer, or,

Keep quiet, cause potentially a lot of negative speculation leading to customers jumping ship from fear?

As the saying goes, better to ask for forgiveness!

 

[Davide DB]

Yes you are right but it is difficult to get into the heads of managers, especially Japanese. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

I've always assumed that the various "rumors" sites were fed largely by the execs at those companies who want to do "soft announcements" of their products to watch for reactions and to drive up engagement/interest/curiosity.  That way they are never actually on the hook for things.

Looks like the new camera will support 8kp160?  Leak it to the rumor site.  When it actually supports 8kp24?  "Hey, hey, we never said it would.  That was just a rumor."

[MrSMW]

9 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Yes you are right but it is difficult to get into the heads of managers, especially Japanese. 

Maybe it’s time they began to think in a more ‘Western’ manner?

But then again, maybe the Asian market is bigger?

I have no idea…

I’m a strategic planner by nature. I want to know what I am doing next year and the year after and 5 years down the line with my business.

If I had a company, brand loyalty would be my number one priority, not leaving any and every next model to pure speculation what it will be, never mind if it will even exist.

And I get they want to keep their secrets to themselves as much as they can, but I think they are too secretive about it.

Does it hurt sales for instance if there is a timeline for the next model?

I doubt it and we can assume and speculate it will be ‘better’ than the last, but give us an idea at least.

I don’t know if they still are, but Fuji at least used to have a lens road map.

I think Lumix kind of had/has one, but one they more add to as stuff appears which is less map and more product list.

Ultimately it’s their business not mine, but I think it hurts them more than it helps them.

[D Verco]

They operate like consumer tech brands, but a lot of sales would be to pros who would like to plan investments. 

[Ilkka Nissila]

I think the issue with Canon is that they have so many mounts and lens lineups and the transition of everything to RF can incur significant costs to the users and as more cameras are released with RF mount, EF mount lens sales are adversely affected and people start thinking there is no future for them. Canon still very recently launched new EF mount Cinema lenses. How will they recoup the investment if people stop altogether buying new EF lenses? Having a roadmap of new bodies would have the effect of ending demand for EF lenses before Canon has comparable RF lenses available for purchase. Another aspect is the move from Super 35 to 35 mm full-frame sensors which is not universally loved. Nevertheless Canon seem to be doing just that with the (presumed) replacement of C70 with C80 and C300III with C400. What about Super 35 lenses? Just using the center area of the sensor is of course possible but will it give optimal results? DGO is not available in 35 mm full frame and a larger sensor could generate more heat than necessary for recording a Super 35 image. A slowing down of new camera releases could simply be because it's not clear which path the manufacturers and users should take.

 

As for Nikon, it is kind of interesting that they now own a camera manufacturer which makes cameras with a Canon lens mount. I think existing RED users probably are concerned at whether Nikon/RED will continue to make RF mount products or transition to Z mount. If Nikon/RED were to announce such a transition, the demand for current RED camera sales could stop overnight. No one wants that to happen. A softer approach where Nikon/RED continue to support and offer RF mount cameras into the future, with Z mount as option is probably much more prudent. This seems to be what Nikon is saying as well: they are considering Z mount cinema lenses but are supporting RF in RED cameras. It would be hazardous to make an abrupt transition IMO. For Nikon the main benefits from the RED acquisition are that they can in the future offer higher end video cameras but it is important for them to consider current users as well, for customer good will and brand reputation. Not that they could not offer adapters but supporting multiple autofocus (and possible motorized zoom and VR/IS) protocols could prove challenging. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

2 hours ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

EF mount lens sales are adversely affected and people start thinking there is no future for them. Canon still very recently launched new EF mount Cinema lenses. How will they recoup the investment if people stop altogether buying new EF lenses? Having a roadmap of new bodies would have the effect of ending demand for EF lenses before Canon has comparable RF lenses available for purchase

Huh?  EF lenses work perfectly with an adapter on RF bodies.  Just about anybody buying $4,000 cinema lenses will be savvy enough to understand that.

 

2 hours ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

As for Nikon, it is kind of interesting that they now own a camera manufacturer which makes cameras with a Canon lens mount. I think existing RED users probably are concerned at whether Nikon/RED will continue to make RF mount products or transition to Z mount. If Nikon/RED were to announce such a transition, the demand for current RED camera sales could stop overnight

Especially at the higher end (v-raptor, etc), the number of people using native RF lenses on their Red is a lot less than you seem to be suggesting.  The cost of a new PL to Z mount adapter ($300ish for a fairly high-end model) is pretty negligible compared with the price of a shiny new v-raptor ($20k+).

The users of the $6k-10k cameras might be more apt to jump ship - then it's more of a question of whether Nikon care about ceding some portion of that market to Canon/Sony.

[Ilkka Nissila]

I think we were thinking about different kinds of "cinema" cameras; in this thread I wasn't so much thinking about cinema production for the big screen but what Nikon's interest in RED is, and that I believe mainly to be on improving the video capabilities of Nikon's mirrorless hybrid cameras, and likely also to offer a line of professional video cameras between the Z9 and the high-end cinema cameras (with similar color science across the lineup, perhaps giving Nikon's traditional and RED's as options). RED likely has technology which would enable Nikon to compete and improve at the various levels of video cameras and Nikon can help RED take benefit from technologies developed for mass-market manufacturing. When we talk about feature films made for the movie theatres or streaming, I realize that manual focus is the norm there and in that case an adapter may be fine, but in applications which benefit from autofocus, image stabilization, hand-held or gimbal use etc. the lens mount (and lens compatibility) is a factor (even if some compatibility is achieved within or across manufacturers and mounts, optimal performance of the advanced features is likely to be achieved only with native lenses).

 

The lens mount is also important when designing lenses to be compact and of high quality; there is a considerable difference in optical quality between Nikon Z and F mount lenses especially at short and medium focal lengths. I'm surprised that PL lenses (with flange-back distance of 52 mm) are still used and nobody seems to be saying they aren't state-of-the-art (which is in stark contrast to how lenses for still photography are seen), but this may be due to the lack of requirement for the lenses to be compact as well as tradition. For stills the flange-back distance seems to make a huge difference. Lenses that weight a few hundred grams (on Z) can equal and better image quality previously only available from 1 kg lenses (in F mount), etc. As long as there are mechanical focus pulling systems attached to cinema cameras a smaller lens may not necessarily be a great motivation or a purchasing factor but for a lot of applications of video (where the operator may need to be mobile and has no help), size and weight can be important. And thus in the smaller "cinema" cameras (which really are not as much for the big screen but video for ads, social media, weddings, influencers, documentary, etc.) I do believe a possible lens mount change can affect purchase decisions.

 

Anyway if people really only use manual focus lenses on RED cameras then the possible loss of RF mount as native option in some distant future may not be a problem; if anything, the larger diameter Z mount is likely to be more rugged and handle heavy lenses more easily than a mount with smaller diameter, and lenses of any other mount can probably be adapted. I do wonder if the 16 mm flange-back distance gives enough space to have ND filters built-in. But for Nikon I think what they really want is to sell Nikon lenses and so a Z mount RED camera is likely to be launched sooner than later.

[eatstoomuchjam]

You're making a bunch of incorrect assumptions.  If there is a difference in "optical quality" between F and Z mount lenses at medium focal lengths, it likely has more to do with a combination of modern lens design and correcting certain types of lens defect in software which means fewer compromises in the physical design of the lens to mitigate those problems.

Anyway, assuming that by "optical quality," you mean "sharpness," it's a horribly incorrect assumption that it's what people shooting cinema want.  K35's are far from tack sharp.  Vintage Zeiss Superspeed lenses aren't all that sharp.  Vintage Cookes are FAR from sharp.  Modern EF glass was already a lot better in many ways than them - but yet, people love the older lenses and how they looked.  Go watch even the trailers for The Witch or the Lighthouse.  The latter went even beyond the "modern" lenses that I listed before and was shot, at least partly, on Baltars.  Not Super Baltars.  Baltars.

Anyway, even if you're talking about autofocus stuff, again, newer EF glass is going to be good enough for most things and on RF cameras (and I'm told on Z cameras, with the right adapter) autofocuses like a native lens.  The focus motors on older glass weren't as good, but the newer stuff can focus almost as fast as any native lens that I have for RF mount - and certainly fast enough for any time I've needed/wanted it on a short.

My personal strategy is to focus on EF lenses for anything needing modern sharp glass.  I've definitely not had any complaints from anybody that I've worked with that the lenses weren't up to their expectations - whether using the L mount variant or the CN-E variant.  It's great - I have no stress about changing between any modern camera systems.

[FHDcrew]

https://www.nikonusa.com/content/red-luts
 

Excited to try these. RED color (or maybe RED-ish color) for Nikon is a win in my book. The fact that these work on my 6 year old OG Z6 is awesome. That camera truly has aged like fine wine. 

[FHDcrew]

I will be playing with these and will report back results!

[IronFilm]

21 hours ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

As for Nikon, it is kind of interesting that they now own a camera manufacturer which makes cameras with a Canon lens mount. I think existing RED users probably are concerned at whether Nikon/RED will continue to make RF mount products or transition to Z mount. If Nikon/RED were to announce such a transition, the demand for current RED camera sales could stop overnight.

Not true at all. 

As I'm certain the vast majority of RED shooters are not primarily using Canon RF lenses on their RED. 

[ND64]

2 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

I will be playing with these and will report back results!

Please test the new Rec.709 LUT too.

"The LUTs for N-Log, which were previously provided for each individual camera, have been consolidated into a single file and optimized for video production based on color science developed by RED (Red Digital Cinema, LLC). The Technical LUT converts the N-Log color space to the Rec.709 standard, making it suitable for general viewing."

 

[FHDcrew]

3 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Please test the new Rec.709 LUT too.

"The LUTs for N-Log, which were previously provided for each individual camera, have been consolidated into a single file and optimized for video production based on color science developed by RED (Red Digital Cinema, LLC). The Technical LUT converts the N-Log color space to the Rec.709 standard, making it suitable for general viewing."

 

Will do. I always hated the older Nikon rec709 LUT, opting to do a CST in davinci instead. 

[Evgeniy85]

Finally, they've made a working 709 conversion LUT after all these years. Filmbias LUT is nice, the rest are not very useful. 

[MrSMW]

On 9/12/2024 at 7:30 PM, Evgeniy85 said:

Finally, they've made a working 709 conversion LUT after all these years. Filmbias LUT is nice, the rest are not very useful. 

Picking up my re-purchased Zf today (only the second time in my 20+ year career I have ever done this!) and having had a look at various use cases of the 4 LUTS, it’s the only one that looks interesting to me.

The B&W looks very flat, the offset or whatever it’s called, overcooked and bleach bypass, err, no thanks.

Going to shoot some crap over the next few days in Northern UK and London and then have a play, but the Film Bias looks at least promising…