Gauging the reaction to the Panasonic GH6

[ntblowz]

2 hours ago, sanveer said:

I edited the pic. Looks slightly smaller than a GH5 (?)

Is that a front Tally light on the GH6? On GH5 there is no light next the flash sync.

[Caleb Genheimer]

I still don’t understand RED’s stranglehold on the RAW patent bs. Like, it’s a painfully obvious method for compressing RAW, based on already-existing open tech (even when they originally “invented” it.) 

What, did the lawyers tasked with contesting it a while back just do a crap job? Or does RED just have a bunch of Big Dick Energy lawyers?? It’s absurd, and I’m still baffled that the big dogs haven’t banded together to take that patent out back and toss it in the dumpster where it belongs. 
 

Everyone wants internal RAW, and the codecs exist to do it easily. That’s what I want in a GH6. If not, then at minimum, ditch the stupid HDMI and implement a pro-grade SDI connection.

 

I’ve also been dying for someone to put a dual-gain ADC audio system into a camera, with 32bit float audio file support. The preamps can be only half-decent, and it’s still a MEGA benefit to just plain NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT CLIPPING. It’s like RAW recording for audio. If it can be put in tiny body packs, it sure as heck can be implemented in a camera body.

[hoodlum]

2 hours ago, RWR said:

Right. Where is LIDAR at this point?

In the past Panasonic has said that it is not accurate enough. 

[ntblowz]

1 hour ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

I still don’t understand RED’s stranglehold on the RAW patent bs. Like, it’s a painfully obvious method for compressing RAW, based on already-existing open tech (even when they originally “invented” it.) 

What, did the lawyers tasked with contesting it a while back just do a crap job? Or does RED just have a bunch of Big Dick Energy lawyers?? It’s absurd, and I’m still baffled that the big dogs haven’t banded together to take that patent out back and toss it in the dumpster where it belongs. 
 

Apple challenge it and lost, and Apple have highest paid lawyers around.

[kye]

I think the GH6 may not need an attention grabbing feature to stand out considering the price bump.  People who were at the limits of the GH5 might find that the GH6 is worth the upgrade, considering how much money they might have in lenses and the total cost of changing systems.

For example:

• 120p going from 1080p to 4K is a useful upgrade for those that use that mode, sports shooters for example
• 60p going from 4K 8-bit to 5.7K 10-bit is a meaningful change too, especially for those shooting log

Even in an incremental upgrade there are likely to be other minor improvements.  The Panasonic colour science has advanced quite a bit from the GH5, so even if the GH6 just 'catches up' to S1/S1H performance, that would be something.

Addition of Dual-ISO would make a huge different to people who shoot in low light.  I shoot with f0.95 lenses in available light and that works well, but it would be nice to be able to stop down to get a deeper DoF without the noise overwhelming the image.

A new sensor opens up some very interesting possibilities, including faster read-out times, higher DR, dual-ISO, etc.

A new processing engine is something that's also interesting considering the existing processing engine is actually enormously capable.  I did some testing and confirmed that the GH5 does the following:

• 4K and 1080p are downsampled (which everyone already knows)
• 4K60 is downsampled, so is 1080p60 (and IIRC so is 1080pVFR)
• Also, the 1080p mode with 2X digital zoom is also downsampled from the middle 2.5K of the sensor, even in 60p!

None of this pixel-binning, line skipping, BS that other cameras seem to think is normal.

So, if the processing engine is being upgraded and gets new features, they won't be to enable it to do things you'd expect it to do anyway, it will be things that are in addition to normal functions you'd expect.

[hoodlum]

While not the GH6 sensor, Sony just announced a new 20mp stacked BSI sensor. We could see this in other camera bodies. 
 

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX472-AAJK_Flyer.pdf

 

[sanveer]

14 hours ago, RWR said:

Right. Where is LIDAR at this point?

The effectiveness of LIDAR has been questioned, with the contention that laser and other sensors can pretty much replace its, and beat it in many scenarios. 

[sanveer]

14 hours ago, ntblowz said:

Is that a front Tally light on the GH6? On GH5 there is no light next the flash sync.

Not sure. I am guessing that laser autofocus or some other autofocus assist, to put it at-par with PDAF may be employed. 

[sanveer]

13 minutes ago, hoodlum said:

While not the GH6 sensor, Sony just announced a new 20mp stacked BSI sensor. We could see this in other camera bodies. 
 

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX472-AAJK_Flyer.pdf

 

The sensor does 120fps at Full Res, 12-bit, which would be great for both Photography as well as for Shooting RAW video. 

"Each pixel readout method deployment for the specific mode (1) Normal, (2) Phase difference, (3) Single pixel, (4) HDR ◆ H driver, V driver and serial communication circuit on chip ◆ 10 bits / 12 bits A/D converter on chip ◆ 14 lane (8 lane + 6 lane) SLVS-EC output ◆ R, G, B primary color mosaic filters on chip (Quad Bayer structure)."

I am not sure what this HDR in (4) is supposed to imply? Will it have better HDR, and perhaps something on the lines of what's on Smartphones, given the much faster readout?

Also, why it Quad Bayer mentioned? For a 20MP sensor? Will it UpRes, like on QuadBayer sensors with larger CFAs? 

[androidlad]

5 hours ago, sanveer said:

The sensor does 120fps at Full Res, 12-bit, which would be great for both Photography as well as for Shooting RAW video. 

"Each pixel readout method deployment for the specific mode (1) Normal, (2) Phase difference, (3) Single pixel, (4) HDR ◆ H driver, V driver and serial communication circuit on chip ◆ 10 bits / 12 bits A/D converter on chip ◆ 14 lane (8 lane + 6 lane) SLVS-EC output ◆ R, G, B primary color mosaic filters on chip (Quad Bayer structure)."

I am not sure what this HDR in (4) is supposed to imply? Will it have better HDR, and perhaps something on the lines of what's on Smartphones, given the much faster readout?

Also, why it Quad Bayer mentioned? For a 20MP sensor? Will it UpRes, like on QuadBayer sensors with larger CFAs? 

The HDR is simultaneous dual-gain readout of each pixel, it's for stills mode only.

Quad Bayer for this sensor is 2 x2 OCL for each pixel for cross-type on-chip AF.

[sanveer]

1 hour ago, androidlad said:

The HDR is simultaneous dual-gain readout of each pixel, it's for stills mode only.

Why not for video. The sensor documentation seems go mention photo only, as does the lack of any specific video frame rate. 

 

1 hour ago, androidlad said:

Quad Bayer for this sensor is 2 x2 OCL for each pixel for cross-type on-chip AF.

OCL in the 2×2 configuration is usually when the sensor is a higher resolution one, and the Quad Bayer/ TetraCell type CFA literally merges colour pixel information, merging 4 pixels onto one. Here the sensor is 20MP. Why would they wanna reduce the resolution. Unless the difference in autofocus performance accuracy between conventional on-chip lended and ones in the 2x2 configuration is so tiny, that the faster processing (,perhaps), of the 2x2 OCL is preferred.

 

Still not sure why its worded as "R, G, B primary color mosaic filters on chip (Quad Bayer structure)."

Unless it's a case of poor articulation or some translation issue (from Japanese to English?). 

[matthere]

A GH6 is good news, I agree with others that the full Vlog colour science needs to be in this. I would also like to see some much higher frame rates for 1080 even if this means time limitations.

If this can do 4K 120 on a smaller sensor hopefully Panasonic could look into some form of HDR for 24 fps?

Braw or similar should be implemented, to get around RED's crippling grip on compressed RAW, I don't want external RAW.

With so many competitors in the full frame market I would like to see Panasonic explore the m43 format and with the use of higher powered processing, they could give the GH6 some unique stand out features like computational photography and AI features, high res, panoramic, false colour and maybe some temporal effects like slit scan or more interesting app base processing. Phones have opened the way for non-photographers to explore app based processing and Panasonic could tap into the future potential with additional apps developed over time and open up a wide market for those wishing to take their phone photography into a stand alone creative imaging device on top of the already outstanding GH platform.

Come on Panasonic "Speculate to accumulate" I am happy at the prospect of GH6.

[sanveer]

Theoretically, if anyone does 12-bit RAW, with a colour correction, or something else baked into the codec, it should not quality as RAW, when compression ratios are con concerned. Even if most manufacturers have their own version of RAW, with varying colours.

Or

If, there is an element of partial de-bayering within the camera itself, no matter how minor.

 

I feel Panasonic can CIRCUMVENT this shady Red Patent (reminds me of the stories regarding how how hundreds of Tesla's patents were stolen and registered as someone else's, back in the day), by having uncompressed RAW out, and then compressing it in a tiny module attached to the camera (like the original yagh module, but Much Smaller). The sole purpose of the module, apart from extra battery and memory like mini SSDs, could be for having a compassion SoC (they could throw in a 5G chip for direct broadcast or cloud storage). Compression post recording should not attract any kind of the shady Patent application issues. 

[Caleb Genheimer]

On 5/27/2021 at 7:46 PM, ntblowz said:

Apple challenge it and lost, and Apple have highest paid lawyers around.

Yea, I read more than a few articles at the time which seemed to think it wasn’t challenged from the ideal angle, but I’m no lawyer 

[TomTheDP]

They should just create a compressed RAW codec. Z-cam did it why can't Panasonic. 

[KnightsFan]

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

They should just create a compressed RAW codec. Z-cam did it why can't Panasonic. 

ZRaw is an example why not to make a new Raw format. No support in Resolve, requires a plugin to work in Premiere. Now if Panasonic added Braw that would be amazing!

[TomTheDP]

10 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

ZRaw is an example why not to make a new Raw format. No support in Resolve, requires a plugin to work in Premiere. Now if Panasonic added Braw that would be amazing!

Z-cam was an example because they are a smaller company. BRAW is the best fake RAW format out there due to its ability to work in an NLE. 

Although its still great having internal RAW on the Z-cam. Transcode to prores 444 and you have a ton of information in an easy to work with codec. Huge files though. 

I'd assume Panasonic hasn't done it as the cost/reward isn't good enough. Any kind of 12 bit or prores 444 would be welcome as internal recording though. 

[Caleb Genheimer]

I think whoever integrates BRaw in body outside of Blackmagic will see big time adoption. 
 

BMD I think might be prohibiting it to protect the Pocket line, but honestly they will see Resolve Studio/Pocket sales on the tail end as folks buy B-cams and full versions of Resolve. Heck, they could limit “third party” BRaw files to Studio version only. 
 

I can’t stress how much better Resolve is versus FCPX, ergo how much better BRaw also is versus ProResRaw. I really want BRaw as the “new ProRes” industry standard, and I think BMD could do it easily if they let other parties put it in-camera. They claim to hate Atmos with a passion, yet they compete in the same space with monitor recorders... they need to one-up everyone else by putting BRaw into third party bodies.

 

Panasonic seems perfectly positioned for such a move, and it’s exactly the kind of thing that would sell truckloads of MFT cameras.

[currensheldon]

1 hour ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

I think whoever integrates BRaw in body outside of Blackmagic will see big time adoption. 
 

BMD I think might be prohibiting it to protect the Pocket line, but honestly they will see Resolve Studio/Pocket sales on the tail end as folks buy B-cams and full versions of Resolve. Heck, they could limit “third party” BRaw files to Studio version only. 
 

I can’t stress how much better Resolve is versus FCPX, ergo how much better BRaw also is versus ProResRaw. I really want BRaw as the “new ProRes” industry standard, and I think BMD could do it easily if they let other parties put it in-camera. They claim to hate Atmos with a passion, yet they compete in the same space with monitor recorders... they need to one-up everyone else by putting BRaw into third party bodies.

 

Panasonic seems perfectly positioned for such a move, and it’s exactly the kind of thing that would sell truckloads of MFT cameras.

Totally. I'm about to ditch Premiere for Resolve and want to use B-Raw for fluidity's sake. I can get that out of the S1H and recorder or BM Cameras (which I do not like), so hoping the next generation of Panasonic cameras have BRaw built in. that would be huge for them. If they add BRaw and internral NDs in the GH6 and S2H, they might just gain quite a few more adopters.

[José Aldea]

A fully functional speed booster for L mount lenses. Could Panasonic do this trick?

And a constant f4 10x motorised video zoom lens with a dedicated zoom lever that couples with a smooth digital zoom to get 15x magnification.

Plus an XLR adapter which integrates so nicely on the hot shoe without external cables as the one from SONY does.

Global shutter sensor feeling. I want to do whip pans.

A swivel viewfinder. I’m too tall for fixed DSLR finders but I like to stabilise the camera with this additional point.