Sony Alpha 1 (12bit ProRes RAW Atomos) vs RED KOMODO

[markr041]

If you want to move with the camera, then you certainly need a gimbal, and you do not need IBIS or OIS, so no wobble induced by the camera or lens, if it exists. Even panning really does not need camera stabilization. Is it alleged that wobble occurs without IS?

[Fox]

6 hours ago, markr041 said:

If you want to move with the camera, then you certainly need a gimbal, and you do not need IBIS or OIS, so no wobble induced by the camera or lens, if it exists. Even panning really does not need camera stabilization. Is it alleged that wobble occurs without IS?

So we are talking about an IBIS which is supposed to stabilize an image but actually brings wobble, so you need to turn it OFF and use a gimbal to have steady smooth shots? What's the point of IBIS then? What about handheld shots? I'm sorry I can't agree on this especially when the competitors have a usable IBIS feature that you actually don't need to turn off when shooting video, and on the contrary help stabilizing the shots as they are intended to. Youtube is full of these wobbling videos. That's a real issue in my view. Even my 12 Pro Max iPhone has IBIS and it is working allright

[markr041]

2 hours ago, Fox said:

So we are talking about an IBIS which is supposed to stabilize an image but actually brings wobble, so you need to turn it OFF and use a gimbal to have steady smooth shots? What's the point of IBIS then? What about handheld shots? I'm sorry I can't agree on this especially when the competitors have a usable IBIS feature that you actually don't need to turn off when shooting video, and on the contrary help stabilizing the shots as they are intended to. Youtube is full of these wobbling videos. That's a real issue in my view. Even my 12 Pro Max iPhone has IBIS and it is working allright

No, I used IBIS and no wobble. I am not trying to sell you on this. You can see from my video the handheld stabilization is amazingly good. You made the claim on wobble, I am just guessing what the cause is if it exists.

But, let's be clear - IBIS and OIS are for removing shake. They do not smooth while walking with the camera by professional standards for any camera - it works great for handheld static shots, as I have shown. If you move with the camera, you must use a gimbal - that certainly includes your iPhone. Whether IBIS helps or hinders gimbal stabilization is actually not clear for any camera.

I have posted lots of videos, and none with wobble. So, is it a particular lens they used or what? I have also seen lots of R5 videos with no wobble, from videographers that know what they are doing. I agree, if there is wobble in static shots with some lens, it is a concern. So, let's get clear what is going on and what stabilization is actually needed.

 

 

 

[Fox]

24 minutes ago, markr041 said:

No, I used IBIS and no wobble. I am not trying to sell you on this. You can see from my video the handheld stabilization is amazingly good. You made the claim on wobble, I am just guessing what the cause is if it exists.

But, let's be clear - IBIS and OIS are for removing shake. They do not smooth while walking with the camera by professional standards for any camera - it works great for handheld static shots, as I have shown. If you move with the camera, you must use a gimbal - that certainly includes your iPhone. Whether IBIS helps or hinders gimbal stabilization is actually not clear for any camera.

I have posted lots of videos, and none with wobble. So, is it a particular lens they used or what? I have also seen lots of R5 videos with no wobble, from videographers that know what they are doing. I agree, if there is wobble in static shots with some lens, it is a concern. So, let's get clear what is going on and what stabilization is actually needed.

 

 

 

As i mentionned earlier, you obviously won’t have any wobble with your lens as wobble is a problem affecting focal length below 24mm such as 20mm or 16mm as found on the EF 16-35 or 15-35 RF… 

so again you will not have any wobble with your 24-70 or 24-105.

More than static shots, IBIS should allow you to walk with your camera and greatly reduce camera shake. That’s what effectively happens with competitors offering IBIS, such as Sony, and yes, even my iPhone.  
 

It is an issue on the R5 and probably due to a bug or misconception, unacceptable in my view, when the feature is sold and advertised as “the best in class” up to 8 stops

[markr041]

33 minutes ago, Fox said:

As i mentionned earlier, you obviously won’t have any wobble with your lens as wobble is a problem affecting focal length below 24mm such as 20mm or 16mm as found on the EF 16-35 or 15-35 RF… 

so again you will not have any wobble with your 24-70 or 24-105.

More than static shots, IBIS should allow you to walk with your camera and greatly reduce camera shake. That’s what effectively happens with competitors offering IBIS, such as Sony, and yes, even my iPhone.  
 

It is an issue on the R5 and probably due to a bug or misconception, unacceptable in my view, when the feature is sold and advertised as “the best in class” up to 8 stops

You cannot walk with any camera using IBIS  and get acceptable stability. Your standards are low if you think so. 

If the wobble exists below 20mm for static shots, then there is a problem. But the problem is for specific lenses.

But in any case you will never be able to walk or run or creep with a camera using IBIS and get results that rival a gimbal or would be acceptable to professionals.

If you use a gimbal, none of this matters.

[Fox]

2 hours ago, markr041 said:

You cannot walk with any camera using IBIS  and get acceptable stability. Your standards are low if you think so. 

If the wobble exists below 20mm for static shots, then there is a problem. But the problem is for specific lenses.

But in any case you will never be able to walk or run or creep with a camera using IBIS and get results that rival a gimbal or would be acceptable to professionals.

If you use a gimbal, none of this matters.

My standards are not low. I’ve been working as a professional in the film industry for more than twenty years and have been delivering steady shots with cameras that never got IBIS, including the cameras we are still using on set nowadays. Now I’m talking about those smaller cameras like the Sony Alpha down to the iPhone in my pocket : they do come with IBIS. Guess what? You can hold them up and walk, and get a steady shot. You probably don’t think so, not because your standards are low but you lack practice or don’t have the skill. A gimbal with help for more complex shot, but you can perfectly hold your phone in front of you and walk straight and have a totally steady shot. 
 

Now, you don’t always use a gimbal. Sometimes you just need a handheld shot, and you need it as steady as possible. That’s when proper IBIS come in handy. 

[markr041]

10 minutes ago, Fox said:

My standards are not low. I’ve been working as a professional in the film industry for more than twenty years and have been delivering steady shots with cameras that never got IBIS, including the cameras we are still using on set nowadays. Now I’m talking about those smaller cameras like the Sony Alpha down to the iPhone in my pocket : they do come with IBIS. Guess what? You can hold them up and walk, and get a steady shot. You probably don’t think so, not because your standards are low but you lack practice or don’t have the skill. A gimbal with help for more complex shot, but you can perfectly hold your phone in front of you and walk straight and have a totally steady shot. 
 

Now, you don’t always use a gimbal. Sometimes you just need a handheld shot, and you need it as steady as possible. That’s when proper IBIS come in handy. 

I don't believe it - walking while shooting with or without IBIS that is smooth, so show us. I have plenty of experience walking while shooting with gimbals, and without. Ninja walk and all that. I agree that technique makes a big difference for walking while shooting, even with a gimbal. And even with a gimbal without technique, it is not smooth. So only with IBIS - not possible. But I am willing to be convinced.

And all of the video that I posted is handheld, and steady. Just not moving with the camera, all static, like tripod but without one (which also takes technique.) Proper IBIS, beyond proper.

An exception to *my* rule is the GoPro Hero9 Hypersmooth stabilization: Example of moving with the camera (and static) without gimbal:

 

[Fox]

And that R5 wobble just looks like a total failure from Canon if it does indeed introduce such a problem that disappears when IBIS is turned off. 

[Fox]

5 minutes ago, markr041 said:

I don't believe it - walking while shooting with or without IBIS that is smooth, so show us. I have plenty of experience walking while shooting with gimbals, and without. Ninja walk and all that. I agree that technique makes a big difference for walking while shooting, even with a gimbal. And even with a gimbal without technique, it is not smooth. So only with IBIS - not possible. But I am willing to be convinced.

And all of the video that I posted is handheld, and steady. Just not moving with the camera, all static, like tripod but without one (which also takes technique.) Proper IBIS, beyond proper.

Again: all that video you posted is shot on a 24mm focal length and the wobble problem appears below this focal range. 
 

Would I have the time to shoot and post a handheld steady shot with an iPhone for you it would be pointless, as you couldn’t see the difference and would probably think it was shot on a gimbal, and still wouldn’t believe me. Try YouTube, you’ll surely find some examples and be surprised. 

[Fox]

There you go, first video found on Youtube. I guess the guy is not even making an effort to ninja walk or whatever . 

 

[markr041]

20 minutes ago, Fox said:

There you go, first video found on Youtube. I guess the guy is not even making an effort to ninja walk or whatever . 

 

Thanks. But, exactly - fail!  That does not meet my standards for steady handheld video walking while shooting (forget the wheelie stuff). It is impressive, though. And you are right, he does not have the technique as the up-and-down is visible when he walks.

Of course, stabilizing a tiny sensor, as in the cellphone, is much, much easier than stabilizing a full-frame sensor!

Anyway, I trust you know what you are doing and need good stabilization. Let's hope that Canon fixes the glitch for the specific lenses you want to use. It is obviously not a total failure if the R5 provides the best stabilization for all lenses 24mm and above.

The Sony A1, of course, provides mediocre IBIS for all lenses, but does not discriminate!

[Fox]

13 minutes ago, markr041 said:

Thanks. But, exactly - fail!  That does not meet my standards for steady handheld video walking while shooting (forget the wheelie stuff). It is impressive, though. And you are right, he does not have the technique as the up-and-down is visible when he walks.

Of course, stabilizing a tiny sensor, as in the cellphone, is much, much easier than stabilizing a full-frame sensor!

Anyway, I trust you know what you are doing and need good stabilization. Let's hope that Canon fixes the glitch for the specific lenses you want to use. It is obviously not a total failure if the R5 provides the best stabilization for all lenses 24mm and above.

The Sony A1, of course, provides mediocre IBIS for all lenses, but does not discriminate!

Yeah that what i was saying, the guy doesn’t even make an effort. But imagine what you can get with proper technique. I’m blown away by my iPhones stabilisation. I don’t think it is easier on smaller sensor, on the contrary, the bigger camera gets the bigger circuitry to have the best stabilisation I guess - even though ARRI and RED still don’t bother 😂. Let’s hope canon fixes it indeed. As a matter of fact, you convinced me on all other points regarding R5 vs Sony A1 so I guess R5 it will be 😉 Too bad it’s bot perfect yet, but I assume it’ll eventually get replaced by an R5 Mark II 😁

[markr041]

18 hours ago, Fox said:

Yeah that what i was saying, the guy doesn’t even make an effort. But imagine what you can get with proper technique. I’m blown away by my iPhones stabilisation. I don’t think it is easier on smaller sensor, on the contrary, the bigger camera gets the bigger circuitry to have the best stabilisation I guess - even though ARRI and RED still don’t bother 😂. Let’s hope canon fixes it indeed. As a matter of fact, you convinced me on all other points regarding R5 vs Sony A1 so I guess R5 it will be 😉 Too bad it’s bot perfect yet, but I assume it’ll eventually get replaced by an R5 Mark II 😁

I am going to post my own Wobble test! I used the Canon EF 16-35mm L lens (and EOS adapter), with IBIS and OIS handheld, almost all at 16mm and using 4K DCI HQ so the full width of the sensor is used. It is uploading now. Static images, of course. But it seems to perform just as well as the 24-105mm, 35mm, 50mm lenses I have used. But, you can see for yourself. So, don't leave yet...

[markr041]

Wobble Test: 16-35mm Lens on the R% Handheld

 

[Fox]

16 hours ago, markr041 said:

Wobble Test: 16-35mm Lens on the R% Handheld

 

Ok great thanks but can you try that with handheld movement? Such as just a slow pan or following a subject?

[markr041]

3 hours ago, Fox said:

Ok great thanks but can you try that with handheld movement? Such as just a slow pan or following a subject?

I will try some panning/following. But in advance, whether IBIS on any camera should be on for panning is debatable. IBIS resists camera movement, thus it may try to counter any movement, including purposive movement like pans. Many videographers recommend turning IBIS off for pans. And this has nothing to with the R5, just the nature of IBIS, and technique. I do not do much panning (I find pans to be ugly in any video/movie unless done sparingly and by pro's). Following people is a good use, but that is not something I normally do with a 16mm lens!

Btw, the 16-35mm lens (EF or RF) is quite ungainly. It is a long, heavy lens that is in fact difficult to hold steady. It also looks like a telephoto lens and thus makes people very nervous in crowds, even though at 16mm no individual matters. They just think a long lens is pointed at them.

[markr041]

This has some pans, horizontal and vertical. 4K DCI, almost all shots at 16mm, with one crop shot at 35mm (so 1.5X).

I again do not see any evidence that there is something peculiarly wrong with the IBIS/OIS of this R5/lens wide-angle combination. At 16mm, the lens is, however, highly distorted - when one pans the distortion creates odd effects, but they are not wobbles and it is a lens optical fault.

[Fox]

11 minutes ago, markr041 said:

This has some pans, horizontal and vertical. 4K DCI, almost all shots at 16mm, with one crop shot at 35mm (so 1.5X).

I again do not see any evidence that there is something peculiarly wrong with the IBIS/OIS of this R5/lens wide-angle combination. At 16mm, the lens is, however, highly distorted - when one pans the distortion creates odd effects, but they are not wobbles and it is a lens optical fault.

Thank you for this. I don’t want to abuse your kindness and efforts but I would have loved some more « movement » in the shots to really be able to tell. 
Did that shot between 1:02 and 1:05 seem to wobble though? 
which was the lens used?

[markr041]

2 minutes ago, Fox said:

Thank you for this. I don’t want to abuse your kindness and efforts but I would have loved some more « movement » in the shots to really be able to tell. 
Did that shot between 1:02 and 1:05 seem to wobble though? 
which was the lens used?

It is the same lens - it's in the title of the video!  I don't not know what "more movement" means. I will not walk with the camera - that produces unwatchable video. I tried it. Has nothing to do with "wobble." IBIS/OIS cannot deal with walking on any camera. I panned up and down. Besides wlaking with teh camera, which I will not post and is awful, what movement do you need to see?

If just 3 seconds of one shot has wobble that you can see, it cannot be IBIS-induced wobble. It's just my inabiulity to either pan smoothly or hold the camera still enough.

Last, this lens at 16mm sucks - it is significantly distorted at the edges. That is a first-order problem. Wobble seems, loking at these results, trivial.

[Dylan Glockler]

The Sony Alpha 1 has a port saver/lock and full size HDMI. You’re right also, that Color science is much improved with Cinetone but it’s a moot point shooting prores raw with the Ninja V +.
 

This is exactly my current setup and have been impressed. Came from a7sii with Shogun but Prores RAW is wildly superior and for me, having the ability to shoot legit, 50mp stills on the same body is next level - with a CFExpress you can shoot those 50MP at 30fps and the focus speed on a native Sony lens keeps up incredibly.