Blackmagic not just by name - why the Cinema Camera is the future

[rommex]

[quote author=emgesp link=topic=613.msg4469#msg4469 date=1334995090]
I wonder what Canon/Panasonic will do if this camera really takes off.
[/quote]

I really hope nothing bad happens to the production facilities / supplies chain / management / key investors of BMD in a couple of months. It's always cheaper to sabotage than to compete.

[cameraboy]

@rommex
why not good old buyout ...it is done before ...best way to kill competition ...

[Alex Mand]

[quote author=rommex link=topic=613.msg4475#msg4475 date=1335005575]
[quote author=emgesp link=topic=613.msg4469#msg4469 date=1334995090]
I wonder what Canon/Panasonic will do if this camera really takes off.
[/quote]

I really hope nothing bad happens to the production facilities / supplies chain / management / key investors of BMD in a couple of months. It's always cheaper to sabotage than to compete.
[/quote]

A fellow from cinema 5D just gave some more infos about this cam. He tested BMCC for hours there and got really impressed about what he saw there. Audio is totally clean, seems to have good pre amps and from what he saw there footage is comparable to the big guys like RED. Well, BMD is not a "new in town" company. They have one of the most powerful softwares for post in the market (color grading, tracking...) used in tons of full feature movies for years before Davinci was bought by BMD anyway. they have great products and I suspect, as many others, that someone big is supporting them. Perhaps apple?  :P

Ok but seriously this cam makes a great 3D rig for steadycam shots, rig shots.

This is the first gen of this cam and we should all sincerely hope that it turns to be a great success. A S35 update for 4.5K would make it the roly grail of the low budget cams of all times. 13 stops, 12bit Raw,  SSD recording, good sound straight from cam with headphone jack monitoring, good sized monitor, peaking, metadata customizable in camera, Da vinci resolve and ultra scopes. Well, we can't have everything but this sensor is Ok for most shots and with a good DOF, nothing massive as MKII but hey! That sensor is a vistavision sized sensor, even Alexa sensor is way smaller, like RED sensor...

With that DR, aliasing and moire free images, great highlight rolloff and so much color data, you can grade it to the bones and yet have a pleasant image; Good luck trying that on 8bit 420 footage. Also this cam will be great for green screen!

[shijan]

not sure that someone can do S35 for 4.5K in near future because bigger sensors are waaay more expensive.

[Simco123]

I wish BM would give us 1080p 60fps with firmware update.

[Tzedekh]

[quote author=shijan link=topic=613.msg4481#msg4481 date=1335020070]
not sure that someone can do S35 for 4.5K in near future because bigger sensors are waaay more expensive.[/quote]
It depends. Bigger sensors are more expensive, but more importantly, there are far fewer available. Even the much-ballyhooed (and I've certainly ballyhooed it) sensor, the CMOSIS CMV12000, isn't ideal. According to Wim Wuyts, CMOSIS's Director Marketing and Sales:[list]Please note that the CMV12000 has been primarily developed for industrial vision application and as such some of the optical performance is maybe not what you would expect for modern broadcasting image sensors. The biggest difference is that our sensor has a global shutter functionality which is a key spec for industrial imaging but this has unfortunately an impact on the pixel performance like dynamic range. The HDR modes are kind of compression modes and . . . as such [do] not increase the linear DR which is of interest in broadcasting.[/list]But as S35 consumer video become more popular, I expect the situation to change, and while the sensor may be more expensive, most of the rest of the camera -- lens mount, SSD-based recording, I/O -- can be reused. The only additional cost may be the circuitry needed to compress a ≥4K image to manageable data rates in realtime. (Twelve-bit CineForm RAW 4K has a data rate of maybe 25%-50% of that of 12-bit 2K CinemaDNG, which is uncompressed.)

Do I think it's doable for $4.5-5K? Maybe, by 2013, if good, reasonably priced 4K-ish S35 sensors appear, it's entirely possible we'll see something at or near that price point.

[cameraboy]

if BMD camera become successful (and there is no reason not to ) they can ask people who make their sensor to scale it up to s35 ... sensor is now 5.5MP 4:3 and if they decide to go 8MP 16:9 s35 i would be only 40% bigger ... so it should not be much more expensive...

[wondo]

there`s always going to be a "what if?" "why don`t?" "maybe in the next generation"....
and with moore`s law crumpling, especially in the digital camera market, the "next thing" is always already sitting in some company`s drawer...

but for the time being this camera is now, or exactly in 2 months...

AND it comes at a WTF price point, compared to everything else available.

at this price, and with the given specs, i don`t really care wether it`s S35 or not, and moaning about it is really a bit like asking for this camera to come for free.

after watching canon take off into spheres beyond my wildest nightmares, giving only what is absolutely necessary to vaguely rectify their insane price policy, but not an inch more, this camera is an absolute delight!

somebody at canon must have thought that the`ve taken us all hostage with the 5DII, and that the time was right to "milk the bastards".
well... turns out that the devil they`ve let out the box turned against them now.

i think we`re all profiting from bmd`s real interest..
they can`t make money with this camera, but i think their real interest lies in establishing da vinci as the photoshop of motion pictures, and bundling it almost for free to this camera is surely the right move.

considering lens mounts...
well i think it`s only a matter of time till somebody straps this thing to a cnc mill and chops the tube off to make every lens mount there is possible... maybe i`ll do it myself, the form factor begs for it :-)

[markm]

Wondo I don't think it's about greed. The Japanese factories need to make money. The technology they have made have revolutionised the world.

The problem is they are holding back technology in order to keep things the same. This is the wrong way What they need to do is evolve.

[Simco123]

I agree that people will always look forward to the future spec because this model still does not have everything we need which to be honest has given more than anything else on the market right now for the price.
What I don't know about are is this BM deliberately crippled and would a firmware give us increase fps? Already it has been said that ISO will be increased from 1600 to 3200 on the production model presumably by firmware update. In the NAB interview with Dan Chung the BM rep mention the camera is upgradeable using firmware. The $2k digital Bolex already has 720p 60fps and it is the only feature of any significant it has over the BM.

[quote author=wondo link=topic=613.msg4502#msg4502 date=1335079220]
there`s always going to be a "what if?" "why don`t?" "maybe in the next generation"....
and with moore`s law crumpling, especially in the digital camera market, the "next thing" is always already sitting in some company`s drawer...

but for the time being this camera is now, or exactly in 2 months...

AND it comes at a WTF price point, compared to everything else available.

at this price, and with the given specs, i don`t really care wether it`s S35 or not, and moaning about it is really a bit like asking for this camera to come for free.

after watching canon take off into spheres beyond my wildest nightmares, giving only what is absolutely necessary to vaguely rectify their insane price policy, but not an inch more, this camera is an absolute delight!

somebody at canon must have thought that the`ve taken us all hostage with the 5DII, and that the time was right to "milk the bastards".
well... turns out that the devil they`ve let out the box turned against them now.

i think we`re all profiting from bmd`s real interest..
they can`t make money with this camera, but i think their real interest lies in establishing da vinci as the photoshop of motion pictures, and bundling it almost for free to this camera is surely the right move.

considering lens mounts...
well i think it`s only a matter of time till somebody straps this thing to a cnc mill and chops the tube off to make every lens mount there is possible... maybe i`ll do it myself, the form factor begs for it :-)
[/quote]

[shijan]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=613.msg4504#msg4504 date=1335085262]
The $2k digital Bolex already has 720p 60fps and it is the only feature of any significant it has over the BM.
[/quote]

when you people understand that cameras with those Kodak CCD sensors are totally wrong way to go?
http://vimeo.com/40504149

[cameraboy]

i dont  think that BMD is crippled ... hardware is just not fast enough to go 2.5K 30fps+...only thing they can do is to crop sensor for lower resolution and faster fps...

[Simco123]

[quote author=cameraboy link=topic=613.msg4506#msg4506 date=1335086068]
i dont  think that BMD is crippled ... hardware is just not fast enough to go 2.5K 30fps+...only thing they can do is to crop sensor for lower resolution and faster fps...
[/quote]

Then this is what they can do. I would welcome 720p 60fps.

[Simco123]

On Philip Bloom's site. BMD is wiping the floor 8)

[url=http://philipbloom.net/forum/threads/2012-the-year-of-the-camera.1530/]http://philipbloom.net/forum/threads/2012-the-year-of-the-camera.1530/[/url]

[cameraboy]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=613.msg4507#msg4507 date=1335088197]
[quote author=cameraboy link=topic=613.msg4506#msg4506 date=1335086068]
i dont  think that BMD is crippled ... hardware is just not fast enough to go 2.5K 30fps+...only thing they can do is to crop sensor for lower resolution and faster fps...
[/quote]

Then this is what they can do. I would welcome 720p 60fps.
[/quote]
i was thinkig about 1920 @ 50p...
and it will be s16 size....

[Simco123]

An interview with tester John Brawley, he said BMD is still calibrating the sensor which affects noise and DR gettng towards Alexa quality, lets hope for 14 stop DR :D Preproduction model he was testing compliments footages from RED and Alexa very well ;)

[url=http://freytag-film.com/blog/artikel/talk-about-the-new-black-magic-design-cinema-camera]http://freytag-film.com/blog/artikel/talk-about-the-new-black-magic-design-cinema-camera[/url]

[wondo]

yes, 50 or 60 fps would be nice... let`s wait and see..

i would be even more exited if they would make a 4:3 readout possible... anamorphics anyone?

[Tzedekh]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=613.msg4504#msg4504 date=1335085262]The $2k digital Bolex already has 720p 60fps and it is the only feature of any significant it has over the BM.[/quote]
It also has a global shutter. But if the BMD uses the sCMOS chip mentioned elsewhere, it too has a global-shutter mode, although that likely would lower the dynamic range significantly. (That sensor is also capable of 100 fps in rolling-shutter mode and 50 fps in global-shutter mode).

[TC]

Signal to noise ratio of the Mysterium X sensor in the Red Epic and Scarlet is listed as 66 db.
[url=http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-m-collection]http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-m-collection[/url] - click on tech specs

Signal to noise ratio of the sCMOS sensor is listed as 16000:1, which in decibels is 10 log (16000) = 42 db.
[url=http://www.scmos.com/]http://www.scmos.com/[/url]

Where does the 88db figure come from that everyone is quoting?  Alarmingly, the sCMOS sensor seems to be from 2009.

[cameraboy]

http://www.fairchildimaging.com/products/fpa/cmos/area/sCMOS.htm
Dynamic range: > 16000:1
http://tinyurl.com/cjdaorh
Dynamic range 88db