Arri Amira vs Pana S1

[TomTheDP]

This dude, AG DOK, on Vimeo does a lot of nice dynamic range tests.

Really interesting to see how close the Panasonic as well as other cameras come to Arri. Have to go to vimeo to watch them. 

Pretty much concludes my findings being able to pull back all the info from 4 stop over exposed shots. Per the video at 5 stops the Panasonic starts to lose information on the face, I noticed the Arri seems to lose a bit at 5 stops too though but not as much as the Panasonic. Its harder to judge shadows, they both have similar amount of noise but the Alexa retains color in the shadows better. 
 

 

 

[HockeyFan12]

I own an S1 and an Alexa Plus and work with Alexa XT and Amira (and occasionally Alexa LF and Venice) footage for my day job work. Technically the gap is narrow. S1 footage reminds me of cleaner Venice footage... but with more skew.

The Alexa is really grainy but has a nice texture. Some people denoise it some people add noise to it but for whatever reason I like the noise texture as is most of the time too.

Venice has a nice texture, too. Great camera.

[TomTheDP]

16 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I own an S1 and an Alexa Plus and work with Alexa XT and Amira (and occasionally Alexa LF and Venice) footage for my day job work. Technically the gap is narrow. S1 footage reminds me of cleaner Venice footage... but with more skew.

The Alexa is really grainy but has a nice texture. Some people denoise it some people add noise to it but for whatever reason I like the noise texture as is most of the time too.

Venice has a nice texture, too. Great camera.

Nice, I've seen that video before too haha!

Yeah I am not terribly impressed by the Venice. Global shutter is certainly nice but the dynamic range and low light performance aren't the greatest. 

The rolling shutter on the S1 is probably the biggest downfall but its rarely noticeable in real world use, at least for me. Motion in general isn't the greatest on the S1 but its a pretty subtle thing to be able to notice. I recall the motion cadence on the Alexa much nicer than the RED Komodo for whatever reason. 

I am really debating getting an Alexa Classic. Do you feel good about owning the Alexa Plus these days?(pretty similar to the classic)

[HockeyFan12]

I was impressed with the Venice, the color, noise texture, skew, etc. is all excellent. ProRes straight from camera, which is nice. But I don't think the dynamic range is significantly better than the S1 necessarily. But I didn't like the F5 and F55 and the Venice to me is a leap ahead of those.

I don't think it's a great idea at all. A Classic with an Odyssey sort of makes sense, you can rig that up to shoot 2.8k ProRes and it's a little smaller than a Plus. Otherwise it's just a huge battery hog with a bit more highlight detail than the competition and it's designed to be used by a crew and you need a huge tripod or dolly to support it and the battery does not last very long even compared with a Red or Amira/Mini. Amira makes sense to me or a Mini if you have the money, but the form factor with the XT, Plus, Classic, etc. is enormous. But I'm so familiar with the Alexa image in post (which is where I spend 99% of my time) that when I had some extra money last year I jumped on it for personal use. If I still shot professionally I'd probably take a P6K or S1 over it. But if you find one cheap enough and have the money why not? Nothing looks so good so effortlessly except maybe shooting film, you just throw a LUT on it and it looks good.

[HockeyFan12]

If you're feeling it (and can resell it if you're not feeling it after) go for it. I think for paid work it's not a great (not even a good) choice but that's different for everyone. The Alexa has a weird soft/smooth feeling that is kind of unique, and also probably not much different than just putting a digital diffusion FX filter on another camera.

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

This dude, AG DOK, on Vimeo does a lot of nice dynamic range tests.

Really interesting to see how close the Panasonic as well as other cameras come to Arri. Have to go to vimeo to watch them. 

Pretty much concludes my findings being able to pull back all the info from 4 stop over exposed shots. Per the video at 5 stops the Panasonic starts to lose information on the face, I noticed the Arri seems to lose a bit at 5 stops too though but not as much as the Panasonic. Its harder to judge shadows, they both have similar amount of noise but the Alexa retains color in the shadows better. 
 

 

 

Wow the S1 holds up well there.

Just shows it is a match for Alexa / Amira when you nail exposure correctly.

Great colour science.

I see the main flaw being that the skin tones go green in his ETTR test and then there's the banding after that, so not quite as flawless as the Amira there but then it isn't shooting ProRes or RAW in his test. Just internal V-LOG I think

[kye]

Interesting to see, and makes me wonder if the next step would be for camera manufacturers to implement a custom LUT for each ISO setting, which would get rid of the green in those high ISOs.

I've dealt with footage that was underexposed and had colour that looked like that and let's just say it's not fun to try and fix in post.  I think I was about half-way to getting a physical reaction from that footage just thinking about trying to fix it in post!

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I was impressed with the Venice, the color, noise texture, skew, etc. is all excellent. ProRes straight from camera, which is nice. But I don't think the dynamic range is significantly better than the S1 necessarily. But I didn't like the F5 and F55 and the Venice to me is a leap ahead of those.

I don't think it's a great idea at all. A Classic with an Odyssey sort of makes sense, you can rig that up to shoot 2.8k ProRes and it's a little smaller than a Plus. Otherwise it's just a huge battery hog with a bit more highlight detail than the competition and it's designed to be used by a crew and you need a huge tripod or dolly to support it and the battery does not last very long even compared with a Red or Amira/Mini. Amira makes sense to me or a Mini if you have the money, but the form factor with the XT, Plus, Classic, etc. is enormous. But I'm so familiar with the Alexa image in post (which is where I spend 99% of my time) that when I had some extra money last year I jumped on it for personal use. If I still shot professionally I'd probably take a P6K or S1 over it. But if you find one cheap enough and have the money why not? Nothing looks so good so effortlessly except maybe shooting film, you just throw a LUT on it and it looks good.

Just noticed the Venice has compressed RAW options which look really nice. 
The same guy AG DOK has tested the venice and the S1 seems to come out ahead in Dynamic range, could be a flawed test of course but I wouldn't be surprised if its true. 

Yeah the power draw is a bummer on the classic. My RED MX has a 60w power draw which I find very manageable. 85w which is the classic is a good deal more though. The Amira 50w power draw is really attractive. I'd love to get an Amira but not sure if I can justify it over a RED gemini or Helium, I just hate RED. 

 

1 hour ago, HockeyFan12 said:

If you're feeling it (and can resell it if you're not feeling it after) go for it. I think for paid work it's not a great (not even a good) choice but that's different for everyone. The Alexa has a weird soft/smooth feeling that is kind of unique, and also probably not much different than just putting a digital diffusion FX filter on another camera.

Yeah I'd love to have it just to see what the hype is about. I pretty much exclusively use the emotive color Alexa lut with my S1 and I really love the look. Maybe the magic would be worth the hassle, probably not though lol. 

The package I am looking at is $6600 with the Odyssey recorder and two 500gb drives, plus a few extras (ef mount, quick release plate and matte box). 1500 hours on the body. It's not a lot of money but it's still a good bit of money at the same time. 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Wow the S1 holds up well there.

Just shows it is a match for Alexa / Amira when you nail exposure correctly.

Great colour science.

I see the main flaw being that the skin tones go green in his ETTR test and then there's the banding after that, so not quite as flawless as the Amira there but then it isn't shooting ProRes or RAW in his test. Just internal V-LOG I think

Yeah would be nice to see the test with braw or prores RAW. The banding is really weird, I've never seen that in my footage. 

[HockeyFan12]

In HEVC 6K I think the S1 has highlight dynamic range similar to the Venice, but is cleaner in the shadows because it's more compressed. I never got into the Red ecosystem but some people seem to love it. The Dragon image is nice but it has just okay highlight dynamic range and it's also really noisy, but nice texture to the noise and the color has improved.

This guy's channel is pretty spot on I think:

https://www.youtube.com/c/Jsfilmz/playlists

 

 

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, HockeyFan12 said:

In HEVC 6K I think the S1 has highlight dynamic range similar to the Venice, but is cleaner in the shadows because it's more compressed. I never got into the Red ecosystem but some people seem to love it. The Dragon image is nice but it has just okay highlight dynamic range and it's also really noisy, but nice texture to the noise and the color has improved.

This guy's channel is pretty spot on I think:

https://www.youtube.com/c/Jsfilmz/playlists

 

 

Brooo that is who I am getting the Alexa from. 

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Yeah the power draw is a bummer on the classic. My RED MX has a 60w power draw which I find very manageable. 85w which is the classic is a good deal more though. The Amira 50w power draw is really attractive. I'd love to get an Amira but not sure if I can justify it over a RED gemini or Helium, I just hate RED. 

I wonder what ARRI does to manage the power demands of an AMIRA? Can't be all just because it is a slightly more modern camera?
 

[TomTheDP]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I wonder what ARRI does to manage the power demands of an AMIRA? Can't be all just because it is a slightly more modern camera?
 

The power draw on the Mini is also less about 60w and 65 on the mini lF. I assume it's just more modern tech. I was interested to know what exactly they did to reduce the power draw but couldn't find any information on it. 

After further testing of my S1 it definitely doesn't like underexposure. Not only do you get banding at some point but the image quickly becomes pinkish. Keeping skin exposure around zero to +2 gives you a lot of room to work though and still affords you multiple stops in the highlights. 

 

 

14 hours ago, kye said:

Interesting to see, and makes me wonder if the next step would be for camera manufacturers to implement a custom LUT for each ISO setting, which would get rid of the green in those high ISOs.

I've dealt with footage that was underexposed and had colour that looked like that and let's just say it's not fun to try and fix in post.  I think I was about half-way to getting a physical reaction from that footage just thinking about trying to fix it in post!

Emotive color's luts actually have exposure adjustments for -2, -1, -.66, -.33, +.33, +.66, +1, and +2 that adjust for color shifts. He doesn't have anything for ISO shift unfortunately, though sticking to the native ISO's and just adjusting gain in post seems like the most consistent option. 

But yeah I agree and don't see why camera manufactures don't have this built into the color science, just seems lazy. The Pocket 6k is the only camera I've seen outside of the Alexa that maintains almost identical color from -4 to +4 exposure, not sure about in higher ISO's though. 

[kye]

9 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Emotive color's luts actually have exposure adjustments for -2, -1, -.66, -.33, +.33, +.66, +1, and +2 that adjust for color shifts. He doesn't have anything for ISO shift unfortunately, though sticking to the native ISO's and just adjusting gain in post seems like the most consistent option. 

But yeah I agree and don't see why camera manufactures don't have this built into the color science, just seems lazy. The Pocket 6k is the only camera I've seen outside of the Alexa that maintains almost identical color from -4 to +4 exposure, not sure about in higher ISO's though. 

Auto-ISO would be a tricky thing if it had to transition between LUTs, or other ISO profile adjustments, but for a cine-camera it would be a safe bet that no-one would do that, and maybe these cameras don't offer auto-ISO at all (I very much doubt the Alexa would).  

Certainly, cinematographers pay a lot of attention to how a camera reacts when under or over exposed, and the relative differences are very subtle, so if they did make custom profiles that evened out the response it would be a meaningful thing that people pay attention to.

[TomTheDP]

9 minutes ago, kye said:

Auto-ISO would be a tricky thing if it had to transition between LUTs, or other ISO profile adjustments, but for a cine-camera it would be a safe bet that no-one would do that, and maybe these cameras don't offer auto-ISO at all (I very much doubt the Alexa would).  

Certainly, cinematographers pay a lot of attention to how a camera reacts when under or over exposed, and the relative differences are very subtle, so if they did make custom profiles that evened out the response it would be a meaningful thing that people pay attention to.

Yeah not so much for a cine camera but auto ISO can certainly be helpful for event shooters. The Arri Amira was designed more for doc, TV, or event stuff ENG style, so I don't see why more modern features would be a bad thing for even an Alexa camera. 

I kind of ignore Canon but the C500 MK2 and C300 MK3 seem to possibly be the best options outside of Arri for overall color consistency and dynamic range. I guess at some point you get what you pay for. 

It is cool to see what you can do with a $1500 Panasonic camera though. 

[Andrew Reid]

Would have been interesting to see the C70 in there with the dual gain architecture. I think the DR is superior to C500 II on that.

Still only 5-10% better than a $1500 Lumix S1 though. So I would never spend that much on a camera. After GFX 100 and Leica SL2 I will probably never buy a very expensive creative tool again because the depreciation and overkill is really quite upsetting.

Going back to a humble S1 is itself a humbling experience for a $10,000 camera owner.

[TomTheDP]

11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Would have been interesting to see the C70 in there with the dual gain architecture. I think the DR is superior to C500 II on that.

Still only 5-10% better than a $1500 Lumix S1 though. So I would never spend that much on a camera. After GFX 100 and Leica SL2 I will probably never buy a very expensive creative tool again because the depreciation and overkill is really quite upsetting.

Going back to a humble S1 is itself a humbling experience for a $10,000 camera owner.

Yeah I am pretty mad at Canon for not offering a RAW output on the C70. Pretty much every other camera company is offering a RAW output or internal RAW these days. I'd rather shoot on my S1 with an external recorder for half the price of the C70. The C300 is a nice option but they should have went with an RF mount. 

I guess its nice that they used the same sensor as the C300 MK3 in the C70 at a much lower price point. Product segmentation is just such a ridiculous idea when the customers are aware of it. 

[Vintage Jimothy]

11 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Would have been interesting to see the C70 in there with the dual gain architecture. I think the DR is superior to C500 II on that.

Still only 5-10% better than a $1500 Lumix S1 though. So I would never spend that much on a camera. After GFX 100 and Leica SL2 I will probably never buy a very expensive creative tool again because the depreciation and overkill is really quite upsetting.

Going back to a humble S1 is itself a humbling experience for a $10,000 camera owner.

It really is crazy how great of a value the S1 is, especially used with the V-Log upgrade already installed. 

I went from using a G85 to the S1 and while I've done good work with the former camera, there really is a noticeable difference in capability that the S1 provides. 

[kye]

6 hours ago, Vintage Jimothy said:

It really is crazy how great of a value the S1 is, especially used with the V-Log upgrade already installed. 

I went from using a G85 to the S1 and while I've done good work with the former camera, there really is a noticeable difference in capability that the S1 provides. 

As a GH5 owner, I've watched Panasonic gradually improve the colour bit-by-bit with every new camera they've released, and they've really taken it to a nice place now I must say.  The GH5 still gives spectacular images, but I must say that with the colour science improvements of the newer models that the grass is getting greener.  

If I didn't have to spend thousands and/or buy all new glass then I'd be tempted.  Of course, considering I haven't shot anything in the last 18 months due to covid, it'd be hard to justify upgrading from a camera which is ageing rather than wearing out.  I bought the Voigtlander 42.5mm f0.95 and Laowa 7.5mm F2 lenses in 2019 and haven't used them on a trip yet!

[Vintage Jimothy]

1 hour ago, kye said:

As a GH5 owner, I've watched Panasonic gradually improve the colour bit-by-bit with every new camera they've released, and they've really taken it to a nice place now I must say.  The GH5 still gives spectacular images, but I must say that with the colour science improvements of the newer models that the grass is getting greener.  

If I didn't have to spend thousands and/or buy all new glass then I'd be tempted.  Of course, considering I haven't shot anything in the last 18 months due to covid, it'd be hard to justify upgrading from a camera which is ageing rather than wearing out.  I bought the Voigtlander 42.5mm f0.95 and Laowa 7.5mm F2 lenses in 2019 and haven't used them on a trip yet!

Yeah, I was able to make it relatively easier on myself to switch from M43 to L-mount in part because the only native M43 lens I have is the kit lens that came with my G85. The lens kit I built for myself was comprised entirely of vintage SLR lenses from the M42 and Minolta MD mounts and were easily adaptable to the L-mount. I'm currently unable to autofocus with the S1 because of that, for obvious reasons, but then I rarely ever used autofocus with the G85 anyway.

It really is crazy just how much new life Panasonic breathed into the S1 with Firmware 2.0. I've no doubt that we'll see plenty of more advanced models with even better specs come out in the relatively near future, but practically speaking I could absolutely get away with using the S1 as my main camera without upgrading for a good 3-5 years or so. Perhaps even longer once I pick up a Blackmagic Video Assist 12G recorder to utilize the camera's RAW output capabilities.