BMPCC6K Pro or FS7?

[Django]

6 hours ago, Trankilstef said:

And why don't you consider the Canon C70?
- Quite similar Pocket 6K Pro form factor
- New future proof mount
- Good (if not excellent) DPAF
- Good dynamic range thanks to the DGO
- Records to cheap SD cards 
- Good batteries that last very long and lot of cheap third party battery brands 
- More versatile than the two you look for IMO

I’m not considering it simply cuz it’s out of my price range. It’s in FX6 territory. Besides I already own a R6 that can do FF/S35 10-bit Clog/Clog3, uses RF mount, has DPAF, records to dual SD cards and has IBIS which the C70 doesn’t. 
 

With the vari-ND adapter R6 even gives you pre lens ND support for your EF glass.
 

I just don’t see the point in investigating an extra 5.500€ just to gain extra battery life and a stop or two of DR.

At least the P6K brings you BRAW/ProRes and 6K resolution.. for less than half the asking price.

C70 should really be priced lower so it would actually compete with P6K, FX3 etc.. placing it above R5 which can do 8K RAW is nonsensical imo.

[Django]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

What about a Panasonic EVA1? (if it wasn't for the EF Mount, I'd call it basically "a better FS7")

Usually they've been priced perhaps a little higher than a FS7, but just lately them seem to have come down to a comparable (sometimes even cheaper) price to a FS7. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274865364977

EVA1 was DOA when it came out due to EF mount and remains even more so today imo. Doesn’t help that it had build quality issues, no EVF and a terrible LCD display. 
 

The P6K Pro is basically a $2300 EVA1 in DSLR format with internal RAW and a quality 5 inch touch display.

[IronFilm]

39 minutes ago, Django said:

The P6K Pro is basically a $2300 EVA1 in DSLR format

I'd disagree, where for instance is the SDI?
 

39 minutes ago, Django said:

Doesn’t help that it had build quality issues

People complain cinema cameras are "too heavy". 

Thus Panasonic makes one of the most lightweight fully featured cinema cameras ever made, and they complain it has "build quality issues". (I disagree, Mitch Gross has explained that although it "feels flimsy" to some, in reality it has a very tough build to itself underneath)

[Django]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

I'd disagree, where for instance is the SDI?
 

People complain cinema cameras are "too heavy". 

Thus Panasonic makes one of the most lightweight fully featured cinema cameras ever made, and they complain it has "build quality issues". (I disagree, Mitch Gross has explained that although it "feels flimsy" to some, in reality it has a very tough build to itself underneath)

Panasonic themselves basically had to replace/ recall defective grips:

https://www.cined.com/panasonic-is-replacing-eva1-grips-with-new-units/

no evf and the LCD was basically a mirror in outdoor use.

Sorry but I’ll pick a brand new P6K Pro with warranty over a sketchy used EVA1 any day and will favor BRAW/ProRes & 1500 nit touch display over SDI. 
 

But in the end both use EF mount which is kind of a dead end for my various FF lens collection. 

[Django]

5 hours ago, andrgl said:

@Django

FS7 def has the advantage if you want to shoot almost full frame for cheap. Basically the only reason I'm still shooting on FS5s... S35 out of the box, or pop on a metabones for 1.07x crop.

There's (2?) FS7M2 on ebay for 4k. Nothing included but the locking e-mount is awesome. Such a pain in the ass to rig a lens to not move when using a focus motor or follow focus. eND is nice to have too.

FS5/FS7 is still the only goldilocks body available IMHO: FF/S35, SDI, RAW, 4K120.

The FS5 II is actually on my radar as well despite it only shoots 10-bit internally in FHD.

Why? The eND alone could be a reason. Again I like to shoot fast primes wide open and the auto-eND could open up a world of shooting style. 
 

Another reason is it’s fantastic slow-mo capabilities. The end trigger via buffer seems genius. No more switching to 120p and editing through rubbish material for your 8 seconds of super slow-mo. It can even do 4k120 RAW bursts via external and up to 960fps which is insane.

Definitely a rather unique camera that even trumps the FS7 (mk1) in some areas despite some codec limitations!

[barefoot_dp]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:39 AM, Django said:

@IronFilm I'm in both categories so the choice really isn't that easy.

Seem pretty easy to me.

If you get the FS7 for it's gun-for-hire appeal, you can still use it for self-produced client work as well.

If you get the 6K for self-produced client work, you'll probably miss out on a lot of gun-for-hire work.

[IronFilm]

Agreed with @barefoot_dp, unless your "gun-for-hire" work is only a small overall proportion of your work (say only one twentieth of your work is that, thus you don't mind if you see a 50% drop in that type of work), then get the FS7. 

But again, depends on the particular "gun-for-hire" work you do, perhaps you only work with a small handful of people (and rarely ever a random contact outside those) and you're tight with all them, and you know they love you and will be happy with whatever you bring along, then for sure, get a P6K Pro if you wish!

[TomTheDP]

7 hours ago, Django said:

The FS5 II is actually on my radar as well despite it only shoots 10-bit internally in FHD.

Why? The eND alone could be a reason. Again I like to shoot fast primes wide open and the auto-eND could open up a world of shooting style. 
 

Another reason is it’s fantastic slow-mo capabilities. The end trigger via buffer seems genius. No more switching to 120p and editing through rubbish material for your 8 seconds of super slow-mo. It can even do 4k120 RAW bursts via external and up to 960fps which is insane.

Definitely a rather unique camera that even trumps the FS7 (mk1) in some areas despite some codec limitations!

Sony's END is fantastic if you've ever used it. Its really disappointing that no other camera manufacturer has developed E-ND. I am not sure you'd be happy with the FS5 image though.

 

7 hours ago, Django said:

 Panasonic themselves basically had to replace/ recall defective grips:

https://www.cined.com/panasonic-is-replacing-eva1-grips-with-new-units/

no evf and the LCD was basically a mirror in outdoor use.

Sorry but I’ll pick a brand new P6K Pro with warranty over a sketchy used EVA1 any day and will favor BRAW/ProRes & 1500 nit touch display over SDI. 
 

But in the end both use EF mount which is kind of a dead end for my various FF lens collection. 

Outside of the grips and shitty screen I've never heard of any issues with the EVA1. It definitely looks like a toy though which doesn't help. If you need a camera with timecode and SDI, I think it's one of the best options on the used market. If you don't the Pocket 6k pro trumps it in most departments and is cheaper. 

[barefoot_dp]

8 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Its really disappointing that no other camera manufacturer has developed E-ND.

Z Cam have.

Though it's nowhere near as good as the Sony implementation.

[kye]

On 7/17/2021 at 5:16 AM, Django said:

Then again FS7 maybe not so obsolete when you consider this chart:

surprisingly not a black magic cam in sight! here is the full article:

https://ymcinema.com/2021/07/12/cannes-film-festival-2021s-cameras-diversity-is-the-key/

I'm not surprised that BM hasn't made in-roads to the "full production" side of film-making.

There is a lot of hyperbole and irrationality when it comes to cameras and the economics of them.  Most importantly, to this conversation anyway, are:

1. Once you have enough cast/crew that you have to schedule your shooting days then you're probably paying enough (even just in logistics) that the hire of a high-end camera isn't that much of your budget so you can afford whatever camera you want
2. I agree with @barefoot_dp comments about getting hired - if you're doing this to make money then start with that as the goal and work backwards, which looks like the FS7 or FS5ii are much safer bets

BM makes cameras with great specs for considerably cheaper than the existing incumbents in the market, but this only really matters to people outside the above two situations, such as:

• Amateur film-makers who are shooting micro budget films with people donating their time, so need to own a camera because they can't afford to book camera rentals and then have cast/crew cancel on them last minute when it's too late to get a refund on equipment hire
• People self-funding documentary work where the phone could ring and they need to get in a car and go in order to capture the action as it happens
• Film students or people who are producing their own projects and who will use their camera enough for it to pay for itself over a few projects
• Hobbyists who shoot at a moments notice or shoot a little each day for many days

I'm a hobbyist, so I care absolutely about what things cost and all the technical and image quality aspects of a camera, but in a business it should be viewed in a completely different way.

[Django]

Right, the BM 6K Pro is probably best bang for buck right now as far as IQ.

But last commercial project I shot with one was externally post produced and of course they had no idea how to deal with BRAW footage, the terabyte files was also a nightmare to transfer with my slow capped DSL connection, so I ended up having to transcode everything to h264, which of course kinda defeated the whole point of shooting RAW in the first place. +4K RAW even compressed RAW just isn't at all practical for fast turnaround / external post projects. The 6K though allowed for great punch-ins so that's a definite plus.

I think in the end the goal would be to own both, lol. They really do suit different projects and workflows. Apples & Oranges really. Thanks to all for the input.

[Fairkid]

I have the 6kPro and think it's a great camera, easy to use and a great image, but realistically for the work I do, which is mainly corporate, it's overkill. I am not sure the file sizes are worth it when I know the client is happy whatever camera I shoot with. The battery situation is still not perfect either so I tend to power it via  V mount which means rigging the camera. 

I also have a Panasonic S1 which I use on a gimbal and find it is more than enough as far as image quality is concerned. It does lack built in NDs though and the batteries only last an hour each. 

I am getting to the point where ease of use trumps ultimate image quality, so I am think about selling the 6k Pro and replacing it with a C200 or C70. 

I know this doesn't directly apply to you but I thought my experiences with the 6K Pro might be relevant to the conversation. 

[Fairkid]

15 minutes ago, Fairkid said:

I have the 6kPro and think it's a great camera, easy to use and a great image, but realistically for the work I do, which is mainly corporate, it's overkill. I am not sure the file sizes are worth it when I know the client is happy whatever camera I shoot with. The battery situation is still not perfect either so I tend to power it via  V mount which means rigging the camera. 

I also have a Panasonic S1 which I use on a gimbal and find it is more than enough as far as image quality is concerned. It does lack built in NDs though and the batteries only last an hour each. 

I am getting to the point where ease of use trumps ultimate image quality, so I am think about selling the 6k Pro and replacing it with a C200 or C70. 

I know this doesn't directly apply to you but I thought my experiences with the 6K Pro might be relevant to the conversation. 

Also, the IR pollution with the internal NDs is annoying. Black becomes purple so IR filtration is something that needs to be factored in, which again adds to the rigging/accessory considerations. 

[Django]

47 minutes ago, Fairkid said:

I have the 6kPro and think it's a great camera, easy to use and a great image, but realistically for the work I do, which is mainly corporate, it's overkill. I am not sure the file sizes are worth it when I know the client is happy whatever camera I shoot with. The battery situation is still not perfect either so I tend to power it via  V mount which means rigging the camera. 

I also have a Panasonic S1 which I use on a gimbal and find it is more than enough as far as image quality is concerned. It does lack built in NDs though and the batteries only last an hour each. 

I am getting to the point where ease of use trumps ultimate image quality, so I am think about selling the 6k Pro and replacing it with a C200 or C70. 

I know this doesn't directly apply to you but I thought my experiences with the 6K Pro might be relevant to the conversation. 

Actually this is probably the most relevant opinion to my user case. I also do a lot of corporate and indeed found the 6KP to be overkill and cumbersome in file size / workflow. That said yes the camera and IQ is fantastic for the price. 

Battery life is of course essential in this line of work, do you have the grip on the BM? I'd think 3 Sony batteries would be sufficient for at least 3 hours recording no?

I didn't mention the C200 which I've owned. If only it had 10-bit internal it would be perfect. The 8-bit 4K is really soft though and the 1Gbps CRL makes BRAW feel ultra light! I sold it and bought an R6 which has excellent 10-bit oversampled FF/S35 4K. Of course the overheating and record time limit means its only good for B-cam or short interviews. Hence my search for an A-cam.

C70 ticks all the boxes but the price is a setback imo and I suspect a price drop will come sooner later.

[Fairkid]

11 minutes ago, Django said:

Actually this is probably the most relevant opinion to my user case. I also do a lot of corporate and indeed found the 6KP to be overkill and cumbersome in file size / workflow. That said yes the camera and IQ is fantastic for the price. 

Battery life is of course essential in this line of work, do you have the grip on the BM? I'd think 3 Sony batteries would be sufficient for at least 3 hours recording no?

I didn't mention the C200 which I've owned. If only it had 10-bit internal it would be perfect. The 8-bit 4K is really soft though and the 1Gbps CRL makes BRAW feel ultra light! I sold it and bought an R6 which has excellent 10-bit oversampled FF/S35 4K. Of course the overheating and record time limit means its only good for B-cam or short interviews. Hence my search for an A-cam.

C70 ticks all the boxes but the price is a setback imo and I suspect a price drop will come sooner later.

I have the grip but it makes the camera unwieldy due to how tall it becomes. Also the connection is not rock solid so there is wobble when on a tripod. Lastly the battery indicator is not accurate so you can go from a fresh battery to a red battery in no time - the red battery might last a while but the anxiety kicks in. 

[Fairkid]

2 minutes ago, Fairkid said:

I have the grip but it makes the camera unwieldy due to how tall it becomes. Also the connection is not rock solid so there is wobble when on a tripod. Lastly the battery indicator is not accurate so you can go from a fresh battery to a red battery in no time - the red battery might last a while but the anxiety kicks in. 

This is why ultimately the V-Lock battery comes into play again.

[Tim Sewell]

I'd add nothing except to say that I'm not certain the extra cost of an FSii, over the mark i, is worth it. You get an extra PP, RAW out and FHD120 continuous, if memory serves.

Unfortunately the extra PP probably isn't one that you'd use unless you need a really quick turnaround, the RAW from this particular cam isn't all that great and the FHD120 is kinda soft too.

Same as @kye I'm mainly a hobbyist (although watch this space!) but if I was earning my living shooting video I would go FS7 without a second thought, given the kind of budget you're looking to put in. I think it will be a long while before that camera isn't a money-earner - and if a client wants something that it can't provide there's always rental.

[IronFilm]

On 7/20/2021 at 2:10 AM, barefoot_dp said:

Z Cam have.

Though it's nowhere near as good as the Sony implementation.

Sadly the Z Cam eND is only for their EF Mount, which sucks if you want NDs with a mirrorless mount. (as they do offer both an E Mount and MFT Mount option for the Z Cam cameras)

[Trankilstef]

I personnally bought a Pocket 6K Pro since a few weeks and I'm very happy with it. 

I alredy have a Sony a7sIII, and wanted another camera but not another hybrid or mirrorless camera, I wanted a dedicated cinema camera. I was torn between the fx6 (cause it's the perfect match with the Sony a7sIII), and the Canon c70 (cause I liked the small form factor and everything it offers). But when making my plans and comparisons, besides AF and battery life (though it's very manageable), the pocket 6k Pro ticked all the boxes for me, my style of shooting and the projetcs I usually work on (music videos and corporate). 

So as the price is lower than the two others I gave it a try (knowing that I previously owned a Pocket 4K for 5 months but I was doing mostly photo gigs at that time so I sold it but now I only shoot video). 

I can't regret at all. IQ is amazing, it has that depth that lacks in my Sony a7sIII footage (thought it's really good too). 

I can match the 2 cameras very easily without too much hassle, and they're very complimentary. One for more crafted visuals, more controlled shots, the other for run and gun situations, gimbal and shootings where AF is a must. 

For the price, this camera is such an incredible tool to make beautiful images. 

The Sony Fs7 is a workhorse, and has been since its release for a majority of filmmakers. But I think the Pocket 6K pro is more future proof, more versatile due to its small form factor and the price makes it a no brainer to me. 

BUT.... It all comes down to what you shoot on a daily basis and what do you expect from the camera you plan to buy.