garypayton Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 maybe some of you may suggest me what to do with this. I was about to buy the GH2 to use it along my MARK II. Apart from the look, we all know the GH2 resolves more details, sometimes you just don't need the cinema look but to record the more details you can, so that's why i wanted the gh2. Now the blackmagic camera comes and changes my plans. What I was thinking now was to sell my 5d Mark II, buy the GH2 and then resell it on july if I don't have enough money to buy the BlackMagic camera. From a $$$$ point of view, I'm worried until july the 5d will loose more and more market, since now the markIII is out, maybe it will be easier to sell a nearly new GH2. WHat do you think? the thing that gives me doubts is that the 5d II is a great photography camera, something that i won't have with the gh2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simco123 Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 I would consider ditching the GH2. You can use the EF lens on both the 5D2 and BM plus you can compliment shallow DOF from the 5D2 with the BM. Sensor between the BM and GH2 is very close and I see no reason to keep the GH2 unless you need it as a second camera to shoot alternative footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garypayton Posted April 22, 2012 Author Share Posted April 22, 2012 Thank you simco123. The reason why I was consider to sell the 5d2 now is that i'm worried the price would drop too much until july. Right now I can sell it at 1400 euro (with various fast cf cards), and since I payed it 1780 euro 2 years ago is a good business. The only problem is have is that until july i need a camera for my works, so i was considering selling now the mark II, buy a gh2 and sell it again in july, since i imagine the price of a new gh2 in two months won't drop that much. I'm confused...i'm worried I won't be able to make 1400 if i don't sell my 5d2 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 The 5D makes not so bad videos, and the GH2 makes not so bad photos. With the kit lens 14-42 the GH2 is not very good in lowlight, but the video is clean and not remarkable. The resolution is good. I know I am getting stoned for this, but you could as well buy a Panasonic HDC-SD909. With the right lenses - like the ones that Andrew lists in his E-book - the look-characteristics of the GH2 are quite comparable to those of the 5D. [url=http://www.janzenkner.de/99ff_berufsverkehr/berufsverkehr.html][u]This[/u][/url] video was made with both, and even the filmmaker says he can't tell which shot was GH2 and which 5D anymore. There you have the answer. Since you have the 5D with all it's lenses, keep it. People tend to forget, that with interchangeable lenses the camera (and it's price!) is not the only thing to evaluate. In the Blackmagic thread you dared to ask about it's drawbacks. This seemed reasonable to me. You should ask yourself what you need the cameras for. Webfilms with "cinematic" look: 5D or GH2 with "lomographic" lenses. No reason to prefer one over the other. The Blackmagic can't show it's bigger color palette in this field. Grading, keying, everything also possible with the mpeg4-stuff, because modern software is very capable. TV-docs: Since 5D and GH2 are 4:2:0, HD-content is rejected by the broadcasters. Wrong cameras. If the Blackmagic is accepted, we don't know yet. Cinema: There are no specifications that stop you from publishing your 5D films as DCPs. I propose you try it (to make a DCP is free, you can view it on a cinema screen). Depending on your own attitude towards your subject the 5D can be sufficient (again the differences to the GH2 can be neglected). The 12-bit of the Blackmagic could be much better. But you have to know the right workflow (which probably is not too hard), and also you have to monitor in 12-bit, while your cheap LCDs probably have 6-8-bit. Here is the catch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garypayton Posted April 22, 2012 Author Share Posted April 22, 2012 Great answer Axel the problem is not which one is better between 5d2 and gh2, i am only concerned about the price drop that the 5d could suffer from now to july. My background is more theoric, I got a cinema history and critic degree (I write for cinema magazines and i'm coming out with a book on Orson Welles' Don Quijote), I have a good analogic photography knowledge, but when it comes to sensors, color corrections, profiles, well i'm still in a learning process. You said something interesting, I don't know if we may discuss it here. The hardware needs for the BM, for example, as a imac 21 owner i want to know if it will be enough to start or if i need already something more powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simco123 Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 What make you think the 5D2 will fall much more in price? Many people actually decide to keep their 5D2 instead of upgrading because of no improvement in MP and modest leap in video. Some even now buy 5D2 because they cant afford the 5DIII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garypayton Posted April 22, 2012 Author Share Posted April 22, 2012 Yes, maybe you're right. I did a test and offered my 5d2 with 3 cf cards for 1400 euro and I got 3 people interested. Yes I will keep my 5d till july and then buy the BM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote author=garypayton link=topic=622.msg4531#msg4531 date=1335117657] You said something interesting, I don't know if we may discuss it here. The hardware needs for the BM, for example, as a imac 21 owner i want to know if it will be enough to start or if i need already something more powerful. [/quote] This is not about power. Your iMac doesn't have Thunderbolt, does it? But this is still not the problem. Even if it was a few years old C2D, it would swallow the ProRes easily. The question is, what do you want to do with the video? Will it be 8-bit in the end? Then you need to do a tone mapping that throws eight of the thirteen stops the BM records into the dustbin. Because you never see them. It's true, you gain some freedom during grading, and if you underexposed, the footage will probably be more forgiving. But you need to become an expert colorist to get better results than with native 8-bit video. And [i]if [/i]you plan to release as DCP, you simply can't grade with your hardware, because you are nearly blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garypayton Posted April 22, 2012 Author Share Posted April 22, 2012 Like always the plan is to get better, many people will go with this camera to upgrade to a cinema camera. 1 over 1 million will make a movie with this, but that's not the point. If this camera opens up more possiiblities without wasting so much money than it's worth. the limit is to push it, if the camera gets to 10-bit then 10 bit will be. I will buy a mac with thunderbolt if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote author=garypayton link=topic=622.msg4537#msg4537 date=1335128501] I will buy a mac with thunderbolt if necessary.[/quote] Buy [url=http://www.colorhq.com/Eizo-ColorEdge-CG241W-BK-p/cg241w-bk.htm][u]this[/u][/url]. If you plan for the cinema. If not, reconsider. The enemy of art is the absence of limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garypayton Posted April 22, 2012 Author Share Posted April 22, 2012 Dear Axel, i'm with you on this, but you put this as if it is a "do or die" situation. If my computer won't be enough, then I will use it for minor works. When I got some serious project I will rent a computer, find some friends that work in the "industry" and work on that. Thank God if there is one thing that I don't miss is Limitations. Don't worry about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted April 22, 2012 Administrators Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote author=Axel link=topic=622.msg4538#msg4538 date=1335128948] [quote author=garypayton link=topic=622.msg4537#msg4537 date=1335128501] I will buy a mac with thunderbolt if necessary.[/quote] Buy [url=http://www.colorhq.com/Eizo-ColorEdge-CG241W-BK-p/cg241w-bk.htm][u]this[/u][/url]. If you plan for the cinema. If not, reconsider. The enemy of art is the absence of limitations. [/quote] True, but there's nothing artistic about USB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garypayton Posted April 22, 2012 Author Share Posted April 22, 2012 I don't think all the people that will buy this camera will have 12 bit monitors and with SSDs you can live without Thunderbolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leang Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote author=garypayton link=topic=622.msg4543#msg4543 date=1335131780] and with SSDs you can live without Thunderbolt [/quote] Thunderbolt is a huge convenience transfer protocol. not everybody is going to hot swap their SSD's and offload via SATA III to their mainboards. for someone doing simple shooting and coming back to their studio with a days shoot of just one SSD can just plug their BMD cam via thunderbolt and transfer to their master backup. transferring 200GB takes some time! Thunderbolt is fast, and for those with new macs dont need to buy Thunderbolt cards. way faster than USB 3 or Express34. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlev23 Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 just keep your 5D as as still camera, the BMC doesnt shoot stills. then youll have a camera for each occasion that share lenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simco123 Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote author=Axel link=topic=622.msg4538#msg4538 date=1335128948] [quote author=garypayton link=topic=622.msg4537#msg4537 date=1335128501] I will buy a mac with thunderbolt if necessary.[/quote] Buy [url=http://www.colorhq.com/Eizo-ColorEdge-CG241W-BK-p/cg241w-bk.htm][u]this[/u][/url]. If you plan for the cinema. If not, reconsider. The enemy of art is the absence of limitations. [/quote] I suppose the iMac 27" screen is not a 12 bit. Are any of these monitors suitable for 12 bit 13 stop DR? [url=http://www.jigsaw24.com/products/computers-and-it/av-presentation/displays/displays/colour-critical-displays]http://www.jigsaw24.com/products/computers-and-it/av-presentation/displays/displays/colour-critical-displays[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted April 23, 2012 Administrators Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote author=garypayton link=topic=622.msg4531#msg4531 date=1335117657]The problem is not which one is better between 5d2 and gh2, i am only concerned about the price drop that the 5d could suffer from now to july. You said something interesting, I don't know if we may discuss it here. The hardware needs for the BM, for example, as a imac 21 owner i want to know if it will be enough to start or if i need already something more powerful. [/quote] I think this decision really does boil down to larger things than the difference between the cameras. Lenses and post production hardware influence the look and working methodology more. So you need to decide what your budget for lenses is, which lenses you need to get the look you desire and whether you need the raw codec, 2.5K resolution and 13 stops of dynamic range from the BMD. 8GB RAM and editing in ProRes will be fine on your iMac as long as the CPU isn't too old. You will certainly need a LOT of storage space though, especially if you shoot in 2.5K raw mode. If you're shooting very long clips like at live events you're better off with AVCHD on the GH2. Don't worry too much about the 5D2's price drop it will not end up at the GH2 level. The old 5DMk1 isn't even that cheap yet and that is nearly 7 years old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote author=Axel link=topic=622.msg4538#msg4538 date=1335128948]The enemy of art is the absence of limitations.[/quote] [quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=622.msg4542#msg4542 date=1335130578]True, but there's nothing artistic about USB.[/quote] I cited Orson Welles, because garypayton writes a book about him, and I wasn't referring to Thunderbolt. My own limitation is limited means. Money, to be precise. As long as the Scarlet was the cheapest camera for 10-bit video, out of reach of the amateurs, I was hated for saying that our cameras have poor color depiction. Now that the BM is introduced, I should be happy, because my dreams came true. I [i]am[/i] happy, but I am realistic also. It is not $3000, this would be naive fallacy. > The whole rig-searching routine starts anew, because this ergonomically stupid device needs it. > Fast lenses, wide-angled, more expenses. > At least [i]one[/i] 12-bit monitor. I am very happy to learn, that the prices don't start at $3000 anymore. [quote author=garypayton link=topic=622.msg4543#msg4543 date=1335131780]I don't think all the people that will buy this camera will have 12 bit monitors.[/quote] This is not because all the people who buy the BM are particularly smart, it is because some of them are embarrassingly stupid. Even the [u]Cinema[/u] Display by Apple claims to display 16,7 million colors (8-bit), but in reality the darkest value for grey, that is the first value to be subjectively distinguishable from black, is not 1. I am no expert, but i read that the display allowed to show up to five stops. Under optimized conditions (well calibrated, dimmed and neutrally painted surrounding area). This makes it a good device to grade 8-bit video that stays 8-bit. Now the defenders of buying the BM with 8-bit monitors probably say, why, we are not interested in cinema, we grade for 8-bit, but with the BM we get almost absolute freedom to grade. Are they wrong? No, they are right. Only that there are not many people who [i]can[/i] grade. Assume that it is an advantage to have more values to choose from, will you choose the best? Do you top the industries top video engineers who designed our 8-bit cameras in such a way as to pick out the appropriate tones to represent nature? Judging from the applause the yellow-casted demo from John Brawley got - no. With the modern color grading applications you can distort every color from 8-bit into every color you like. What needs to be done first in any CC workflow is optimizing the footage in the primary correction step before you create any kind of look. Do you know how to do this, when your monitor doesn't show the colors? Rhetorical question. Comment on this, but let me for now dismiss the option of grading with 12-bit for 8-bit as crackbrained. What about cinema? No objections. Keep in mind that cinemas don't like stereo sound. If you sit in the right corner, the left sound event comes too late. This is too complicated to explain with my limited english, but believe me that your choices are mono (yawn!) or surround. Now, are you going to judge a surround mix with your PC speakers or headphones? More expenses. Don't blame it on me. I have the same dreams you have. You can end my dilemma by donating money. Money could end my most urgent limitations. And now: The enemy of art is the absence of limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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