An EOSHD Interview with Yosuke Yamane - Are Panasonic working on an L-mount cinema camera?

[Caleb Genheimer]

16 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I have a MixPre6 II that has this and its pretty incredible. I doubt it will make it to any cameras anytime soon especially hybrids. Audio is an afterthought for most of them and their approach is if you want something better use a separate recorder. Panasonic's XLR module is excellent though for what it is and I use it all the time with the S5.

I use the same kit. It’s recently all over lower price brackets though. Zoom has a tiny body pack LAV recorder with 32bit float for sub-$200 USD. I’d say that indicates the chipsets are just as economical as whatever they’re currently putting in cameras, now it is more about people pressing them to add that feature.

 

Edit: if they wanna make their money, an XLR Module with 32bit float would definitely end up in my bag. But if the camera is capable of writing that to the card, may as well put the same tech in the camera body itself too… heck even for onboard scratch mics it’d be pretty handy.

[currensheldon]

Some interesting tidbits here. I don't think you'll see any of the usual three (Sony, Canon, Panasonic) doing things like SSD recording (like Sigma and BM), but I hope I'm wrong. For things like that and internal NDs, I do think Panasonic would be the first to do it in a mirrorless form factor, just like they were the first to do 10-bit 422 (GH5) and timecode (S1H). 

I think Panasonic has to come out with something big for their next cinema line. They have a dedicated fanbase for people who put IQ, functionality, video features (pros) above hype and specs (Sony). BUT, they still need to deliver high-end specs in order to stay alive.

For the GH6 and S2H (or whatever), I think that means timecode, internal NDs of some sort, and some form of low-profile raw recording (like an SSD or some sort of attachment as @Andrew Reid mentioned to technically make it "external"). Even including CinemaDNG Raw internal would be fine because SlimRaw with the Sigma FP is actually a pretty amazing combo. But the FP just lacks so many professional and usability features that it's not quite worth the hassle. 

For the EVA-2, has to be full-frame, L-Mount, some form of 12-bit 444 or raw internally, high frame rates, and, stylistically, more than an FS5/FX6-copy. I'd still vote for a full-frame BGH1-style and surpass the Komodo where it falls short (full-frame sensor, high frame rates without a crop, dual XLRs). The screens on most cinema cameras are crap anyway (outside of C300/C500, which is at least usable), so just forego it altogether. 

[sanveer]

20 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

 

I have no doubt that the GH6 will be a powerful camera with most, or maybe even more, of the professional features in their S line. 

I hope you're right. The GH line started it for Panasonic and created the customer base for Videographers. It needs to be the camera to beat, atleast for video.

 

I am curious why no ILC maker is trying smartphone type HDR to get better low light, more dynamic range, and greater bit depth. 

[Caleb Genheimer]

11 hours ago, currensheldon said:

BGH1-style

My body is ready for a BS1H like, YESTERDAY. I 110% would not complain if the “S2H” ditched hybrid form-factor entirely and went full cube-cam. For crying out loud, the S1H is already a significantly different chassis versus the S1/S1R/S5. ONE of the four could totally be a cube-cam, and it could still remain a hybrid in function (if not in form). Heck, plenty of stills cameras have historically been cubes anyway. 

[TomTheDP]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:22 PM, kye said:

The GH5 has so many features that the only thing more shameful than the other manufacturers not matching it is that people bought the more recent cameras that failed to meet the standard it set.

It's not the best camera in the world by any stretch, but it screws customers the least, and might even be the camera that cripples the hardware the least.  BMs cameras also don't cripple the hardware too much.  I imagine that's why both the GH and Pocket camera lines are so popular.

In terms of what people want from a camera, mostly the feature lists show how immature people are as cinematographers and how little they understand film-making, even to the point where they understand it so little that they don't even know that their feature requests make them look like idiots.

One thing that strikes me is that an internal fixed ND is great for getting things in the ballpark and I'd still need a vND to dial in the exposure properly.  For me, and others shooting fast or in less controlled lighting, I don't want to adjust the aperture to fine-tune the exposure and can't dial up and down all the lights to get it right on, so having internal NDs doesn't have enough control.

How do you find that most people deal with this situation?  ie, where they want to shoot exteriors at a wider aperture and thus need more ND than a single vND can give?  Do they put on a fixed ND and a vND?  I have both but find stacking them very cumbersome.

You just need to carry all a lot of different fixed ND's to compensate for any scenario, 1-10 stops. Doesn't really work for run and gun of course. I personally don't mind adjusting aperture by a stop. Being able to expose 4 over on the Panasonic S1 also gives me a lot of leeway. Sony END is amazing to have though. For gigs the client doesn't usually care about the look enough for it to matter a lot, 2-4-6 stops on the BM cameras are enough to work with. At least for jobs where you are using a Blackmagic camera in the first place. 

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

18 hours ago, sanveer said:

I am curious why no ILC maker is trying smartphone type HDR to get better low light, more dynamic range, and greater bit depth. 

Because chipsets for ILCs are ages behind the tech embedded in smatphones processors. And will stay that way - because chip design and manufacture are very expensive things, and even the worst phone sells in much higher numbers than any camera.

[Jimbo]

On 8/3/2021 at 4:22 AM, kye said:

How do you find that most people deal with this situation?  ie, where they want to shoot exteriors at a wider aperture and thus need more ND than a single vND can give?  Do they put on a fixed ND and a vND?  I have both but find stacking them very cumbersome.

I have a pouch on my hip with a 3 stop, 6 stop and 7 & 2/3 stop NDs that I use for all my professional work. All my filters and lenses have Xume magnetic adapters on so I can quick draw 😃

I've been using m43 cameras (and now S Series too) for 10+ years. At first I used vNDs but I found they regularly caused image artefacts in different lighting situations which wasn't acceptable so when the Xume adapters came to market I quickly switched to fixed NDs. I'm pretty fast even for run and gun assignments, and used to quickly dialling in aperture/ISO to bridge the gaps in my NDs.

However, I really do want a cinema camera that has NDs built in now. The Canon C70 and Sony FX6 are well thought out and very tempting small cinema cameras. However, I'm hoping the Panasonic team have something up their sleeve. I'd say the three main things keeping me in the Panasonic camp for now are:
1) Trust in these small, bullet proof cameras in any professional environment (studio running for hours, middle of a field getting drenched by rain etc.)

2) A solid, sensible priced B Cam option (S1 and GH5s my current combo)

3) Panasonic's approach to firmware updates and giving customers all they can. No other manufacturer comes close!!

Regarding putting NDs in small bodies, I have thought before that putting a single 3 or 4 stop ND on the grip side that you could activate would be awesome. 3/4 stops is a very handy amount of ND for most situations!

Good interview, Andrew!

[Caleb Genheimer]

7 hours ago, Jimbo said:

Trust in these small, bullet proof cameras in any professional environment

Panny REALLY has their stuff “on fleek.” Bulletproof indeed. I’ve wandered off to Samsung and Blackmagic, but I always end up back with Panasonic, they really nail everything down. AF may be a bit behind the competition, but everything that works REALLY works and is 100% dependable.

There are some deals floating around on the S1H that I might just bite on soon, it seems like a decade kinda camera.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

There are some deals floating around on the S1H that I might just bite on soon, it seems like a decade kinda camera.

There are. In France, they have dropped over 500 euros in the last 3-4 months alone.

I think they were a decent price when new (around 4k) but with ‘as new’ examples now pushing 2.5k, an absolute steal.

I have lusted after a Leica SL2 since it came out and more recently the SL2-S, but have come to the conclusion that the S1H is just the better camera even without the 2x price difference.

Compared to everything else on the market, there just isn’t anything that comes close for my requirements.

As long as you don’t need ultra-reliable forward or backward motion AF tracking, especially with non-native glass or with apertures faster than f4 (ie, with say the Panny 24-105 @ f4, it’s pretty decent). It would be a brave man or woman who took one to the Olympics.

[Caleb Genheimer]

29 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Compared to everything else on the market, there just isn’t anything that comes close for my requirements.

If (a big if) the next S[ ]H camera has proper AF AND internal ND, I’ll consider buying it. Otherwise, as soon as the next-best-thing hits market, I’ll enjoy that sweet and savory S1H price drop that we all know will arrive along with the new model release.

[Tobias Mennle]

I was pleased to find this interview, but learned very little from it, because most urgent question is: Where is EVA2/Varicam LT with S1H sensor or better.

Panasonic organic sensor is a big hope, as it would make NDs irrelevant, which can probably not be incorporated into L-mount cameras with an IBIS.

The S1H is amazing and a great B-camera for my 5 year old Varicam LT. Although imagewise the S1H is rather the A-camera now.

But rigging up the S1H for my needs is a nightmare and will always be a compromise in terms of usability.

Where is EVA2 with S1H image pipeline??? It´s a damn long wait.

Then Varicam LT with organic sensor.

I hope the wait is worth it.

[cameraDave]

Maybe the GH6 and future cinema camera can utilize an internal filter similar to the Panavision LCND without requiring the space of the Sony design. 

 

[Vintage Jimothy]

22 hours ago, Tobias Mennle said:

I was pleased to find this interview, but learned very little from it, because most urgent question is: Where is EVA2/Varicam LT with S1H sensor or better.

Panasonic organic sensor is a big hope, as it would make NDs irrelevant, which can probably not be incorporated into L-mount cameras with an IBIS.

The S1H is amazing and a great B-camera for my 5 year old Varicam LT. Although imagewise the S1H is rather the A-camera now.

But rigging up the S1H for my needs is a nightmare and will always be a compromise in terms of usability.

Where is EVA2 with S1H image pipeline??? It´s a damn long wait.

Then Varicam LT with organic sensor.

I hope the wait is worth it.

Yeah, I'm honestly shocked that Panasonic have been taking so long to release their own top end Large Format cinema camera to compete with ARRI, RED and especially Sony. The Varicam was really popular with a ton of Netflix shows, but it's quickly been replaced for a ton of those productions with the Sony Venice. 

[Caleb Genheimer]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:08 AM, Vintage Jimothy said:

Yeah, I'm honestly shocked that Panasonic have been taking so long to release their own top end Large Format cinema camera to compete with ARRI, RED and especially Sony. The Varicam was really popular with a ton of Netflix shows, but it's quickly been replaced for a ton of those productions with the Sony Venice. 

I’m fairly suspicious that using Sony sensors involves use-case restrictions, not slapping the S1H sensor into a cine body could be one of those.

[newfoundmass]

 

13 hours ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

I’m fairly suspicious that using Sony sensors involves use-case restrictions, not slapping the S1H sensor into a cine body could be one of those.

Has the S1H sensor been used in any other cameras? I'm surprised that Z-Cam hasn't used it... There might be something to what you're saying if no one else has used it, though I'm unsure if it's even legal to restrict a sensor's use other than who can and can't buy it? It could be that Panasonic has exclusivity and just aren't interested in a full frame cine camera? Or it's in development? 

[MrSMW]

I have read in several places that I cannot quote…because I can’t remember where, that the S1H has a different sensor to the S1 and S5 (and obviously the S1R).

The available info all seems a bit sketchy and Secret Squirrel when it comes to sensors.

 

[TomTheDP]

On 8/11/2021 at 1:25 AM, MrSMW said:

I have read in several places that I cannot quote…because I can’t remember where, that the S1H has a different sensor to the S1 and S5 (and obviously the S1R).

The available info all seems a bit sketchy and Secret Squirrel when it comes to sensors.

 

The S1 and S1H at least share the a variant of a very similar sensor. S1R is definitely completely different. 

[Stab]

On 8/11/2021 at 7:25 AM, MrSMW said:

I have read in several places that I cannot quote…because I can’t remember where, that the S1H has a different sensor to the S1 and S5 (and obviously the S1R).

The available info all seems a bit sketchy and Secret Squirrel when it comes to sensors.

 

Yea I heard / read that many times before but I simply don't believe it. Never have.

I have both by the way. When I don't know which clip is shot by which of the two, it's impossible to tell. The S1H does suffer a bit less from aliassing though because of the OLPF. 

[MrSMW]

14 hours ago, Stab said:

Yea I heard / read that many times before but I simply don't believe it. Never have.

I have both by the way. When I don't know which clip is shot by which of the two, it's impossible to tell. The S1H does suffer a bit less from aliassing though because of the OLPF. 

I agree. I know nothing about sensors but doubt if it’s anything but the same but with the filter.

In camera, with identical settings, they look completely different, that of the S5 very flat and lifeless compared with the S1H, but that’s the screen resolution of the latter being in a different league.