8K 150fps down to 2K 600fps on... new RED V-RAPTOR

[Emanuel]

 

 

[Emanuel]

"Down" : D up to 600fps... Impressive : ) Who would imagine it only a few years ago? Seems clear to me that we're living future straight from now today :- )

[TomTheDP]

Kind of a big change for RED. They are advertising this camera as being superior to the Monstro which was released at $80,000. The RF mount also signifies they are trying to target a lower end market, as well as a higher end one presumably. 

I hate the fan placements on RED. 

[ntblowz]

I wonder will they have s35 of the same camera for under 20K?

 

That spec is pure beast! Much more exciting than Komodo, so does the price though.

 

It's good that is in RF mount. If I rent the camera all my RF lens fit like glove haha.

[barefoot_dp]

I'm sure the images from this will be fantastic, but - to quote Ellen Ripley - did IQ's just drop sharply while I was away?

This camera seems to be completely at odds with itself. All the controls are on the dumb side - implying it's made for crews with an AC. Ok, so then why prioritize RF mount with AF, over PL/MF? Why make it so hard for the operator to reach or see the controls? Or even the record button? Where are you supposed to put your handles? On the side it will block the AC panel, and on the top you'll get a constant blasting of hot air. Same goes for shoulder-mounting - not very fun at all when you've got the camera breathing hot air in to your ear all day. It's a small brick/brain designed to be modular but the placement of everything means you can't mount anything where you want/need, defeating the purpose of having a small modular body.

Not to mention that none of your previous red accessories will work on this one. Time to buy new lenses/adapters, handles, media, etc. What ever happened to making obsolecence obsolete?

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and this actually is what most DOP's actually want in a body design. All the fanboys will eat this up but to me this just kind of feels like the episode of the Simpsons where Homer's brother lets him design a car.

[Emanuel]

Fanboys fanfare is surely not the best one to put a brand develop : ) Unbiased customer reviews instead, yes, make the product better.

I believe Jarred (hats off to his effort to make a whole decade and an half of continuous labor and results to keep going Jim's endeavour) and his team will follow up this thread as well fair concerns such as those you've just posted. Even though, I guess this product is also targeted to the one-man-show, nowadays crews are gradually made of :- )

[barefoot_dp]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

 Even though, I guess this product is also targeted to the one-man-show, nowadays crews are gradually made of :- )

That's what confuses me so much. If they want to make a solo-operator camera, do it! Put the controls where you can reach them, for a start.

This thing looks like they copied a whole bunch of features from different cameras without realising WHY those cameras made those choices in the first place - Shape from the Z-Cam (but all the sensible mounting points are now fans instead), RF mount from C70 (even though a large portion of the user base will want PL), AC panel from the Venice (at the expense of operator-side controls), minimal buttons like an Alexa Mini (but susing an electronic lens mount which now cannot be controlled from the operator side), etc.

If feels just eerily similar to Apple's forced design choices: "We've purposely designed this product poorly so you'll have to buy more accessories from us". Either that or it's built by someone who has never actually used a camera.

The price is nice compared to the Monstro though, and of course the image will be top-notch - I'm not going to argue with that.

[MurtlandPhoto]

14 minutes ago, barefoot_dp said:

That's what confuses me so much. If they want to make a solo-operator camera, do it! Put the controls where you can reach them, for a start.

I think the primary controls will still be on the top-mounted touchscreen just like with all the DSMC2 bodies. The added controls on the other side are just another option. Although, it does make adding a side handle... awkward.

[kye]

Does anyone know how big it is?  I looked very similar to Komodo in the PR videos.

As always, I am interested in the best image quality in the tiniest package, and although I doubt I will ever own a RED, the more that manufacturers go in this direction, the more they push other manufacturers to follow suit which is good for me!

[barefoot_dp]

16 hours ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

I think the primary controls will still be on the top-mounted touchscreen just like with all the DSMC2 bodies. The added controls on the other side are just another option. Although, it does make adding a side handle... awkward.

Yes - exactly what I meant about the forced design choices. Want even the most BASIC functionality? No problem, buy our monitor for an extra $3000!

It Iooks like they're offering a side handle without controls but it looks terribly awkward. I'm also not sure if any of the ports would even allow an active handgrip to be added (Maybe the EXT port?) as an accessory. And if that's the case it means there will be no way to start/stop recording or adjust exposure (for any price) without taking one of your hands off the camera (or having a 2nd person do it).

It's ok for tripod use, I guess.

[Emanuel]

Interesting input, no matter if criticism when worthy. As said, I believe Jarred and his team are following up all that, I hope : ) Those fab specs and the brand deserve any single and every improvements to be progressively implemented :- )

[KnightsFan]

19 hours ago, kye said:

Does anyone know how big it is?  I looked very similar to Komodo in the PR videos.

There's a picture on the Newsshooter article

 

Well, can't say it's in my budget range, but it's a nice look into where sensor tech is going. 8k120 means they're reading all ~36mp in just 8ms--is this a glimpse at the end of jello cam?

RF is an interesting mount choice for an A-cam in cinema. I'm not opposed per se. I think we should move away from massive, heavy, manual-only lenses, but in order to be an effective replacement it's necessary to have features to leverage lens' builtin AF motors. It should be like having a builtin wireless FF motor inside each lens, with all the features you'd expect from a pro FF kit.

[TomTheDP]

3 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

There's a picture on the Newsshooter article

 

Well, can't say it's in my budget range, but it's a nice look into where sensor tech is going. 8k120 means they're reading all ~36mp in just 8ms--is this a glimpse at the end of jello cam?

RF is an interesting mount choice for an A-cam in cinema. I'm not opposed per se. I think we should move away from massive, heavy, manual-only lenses, but in order to be an effective replacement it's necessary to have features to leverage lens' builtin AF motors. It should be like having a builtin wireless FF motor inside each lens, with all the features you'd expect from a pro FF kit.

I am puzzled why its not an interchangeable mount. Would a big production want to deal with an RF mount on their A cam? Will they release a RED ranger style version with a PL mount option?

[Emanuel]

Well seen but as written up there, I think because RED is going towards a different target this time : ) that is, not exactly as not expected at least :- )

[KnightsFan]

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

I am puzzled why its not an interchangeable mount. Would a big production want to deal with an RF mount on their A cam? Will they release a RED ranger style version with a PL mount option?

It is a puzzling decision, particularly since Red has an interchangeable mount with an existing user base. Changing standards typically hurts consumers who have to buy a whole ecosystem. That said, the low price on the Raptor compared to DSMC2 suggests that it's less about milking consumers, and likely has something to do with licensing deals or whatnot with Canon.

[kye]

13 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

There's a picture on the Newsshooter article

Well, can't say it's in my budget range, but it's a nice look into where sensor tech is going. 8k120 means they're reading all ~36mp in just 8ms--is this a glimpse at the end of jello cam?

RF is an interesting mount choice for an A-cam in cinema. I'm not opposed per se. I think we should move away from massive, heavy, manual-only lenses, but in order to be an effective replacement it's necessary to have features to leverage lens' builtin AF motors. It should be like having a builtin wireless FF motor inside each lens, with all the features you'd expect from a pro FF kit.

Thanks, interesting size comparison.  It looks way bigger, but in reality it's only a bit in each dimension, and for a FF 8K is still very compact.

9 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I am puzzled why its not an interchangeable mount. Would a big production want to deal with an RF mount on their A cam? Will they release a RED ranger style version with a PL mount option?

I saw someone mention it is a locking mount, which if true might mean that ??-RF adapters could be used and locked to provide a secure mount, for example the EF-RF adapter with ND built-in?

Taking the same form-factor as the Komodo makes me think it's a budget entry-level thing, but the specs and price definitely don't give that impression, at least to me!  Maybe that's the rationale behind it.  Certainly I was under the impression that the two mounts for professional use were EF and PL, but now RF has replaced EF and can be adapted that's the new direction?  My impression of the RF lenses from Canon was that they were very expensive compared to the EF equivalents, but were also very high quality / resolution and so might be a similar "tier" to an 8K FF cine camera?

While the 8K FF V-RAPTOR is the big brother of the 6K S35 KOMODO, I'd be very interested in a 4K MFT RED that was the little brother to the Komodo - and would potentially be the bigger brother to the 1080p S16 BMMCC....  that would be very interesting to me.

[mercer]

There aren't enough FF cinema lenses in the PL mount to warrant it. Hence the RF mount.  PL lenses can be adapted, and any other cine modded, FF still lens can be adapted. 

[mercer]

Also look at that Suicide Squad/Red BTS video. It seems that productions are looking for smaller cameras that they can do more with much easily.

[TomTheDP]

11 hours ago, kye said:

Thanks, interesting size comparison.  It looks way bigger, but in reality it's only a bit in each dimension, and for a FF 8K is still very compact.

I saw someone mention it is a locking mount, which if true might mean that ??-RF adapters could be used and locked to provide a secure mount, for example the EF-RF adapter with ND built-in?

Taking the same form-factor as the Komodo makes me think it's a budget entry-level thing, but the specs and price definitely don't give that impression, at least to me!  Maybe that's the rationale behind it.  Certainly I was under the impression that the two mounts for professional use were EF and PL, but now RF has replaced EF and can be adapted that's the new direction?  My impression of the RF lenses from Canon was that they were very expensive compared to the EF equivalents, but were also very high quality / resolution and so might be a similar "tier" to an 8K FF cine camera?

While the 8K FF V-RAPTOR is the big brother of the 6K S35 KOMODO, I'd be very interested in a 4K MFT RED that was the little brother to the Komodo - and would potentially be the bigger brother to the 1080p S16 BMMCC....  that would be very interesting to me.

It is a locking mount which is cool. Though most people I know in the uber professional relm dislike using adapters.

 

11 hours ago, mercer said:

There aren't enough FF cinema lenses in the PL mount to warrant it. Hence the RF mount.  PL lenses can be adapted, and any other cine modded, FF still lens can be adapted. 

I don't know, all the Alexa cameras are PL mount and there doesn't seem to be an issue with lenses. Non PL mount lenses just won't be used on super high end stuff for the most part. Its an interesting choice for sure. Doesn't seem to directly compete with ARRI. Of course its also cheaper than the Mini and much cheaper than the LF. I think its a different direction for RED. Its a changing industry.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

don't know, all the Alexa cameras are PL mount and there doesn't seem to be an issue with lenses. Non PL mount lenses just won't be used on super high end stuff for the most part. Its an interesting choice for sure. Doesn't seem to directly compete with ARRI. Of course its also cheaper than the Mini and much cheaper than the LF. I think its a different direction for RED. Its a changing industry.

I agree, it's a different direction for a changing industry. I would assume the majority of Red owner/operators only get a portion of their income from narratives and more than likely it's small scale projects. An RF mount is much more appealing to those shooters than PL mount. Just look at the used market, most low to mid level cinema cameras with PL mounts sell cheaper than their EF counterparts.

There are some PL mount lenses to choose from, but not a lot and only a few newer lenses that will cover full frame. Even The Joker had the Nikkor 58mm 1.2 lens adapted to PL mount. So if you want a specific look, or need to use a vintage lens for budgetary reasons, the PL mount can be limiting.

As far as control placement, I assume bigger production will be using the new Red a lot with cranes, jibs and drones... so the control placement probably isn't as big of a concern.
 

Let's be honest here... 8K 120p footage isn't designed for handheld, single operator dramas. These cameras are made for VFX and action films.

They will be flying and circling sound stages wrapped in green screen.