Sony A7 IV

[Django]

Just watched a couple reviews including Gerald Undone's. 

The bad news is 4K60p crop only confirmed and terrible rolling shutter.

This kinda places it at a disadvantage towards the R6 which can also do 10-bit 4K60p.. without a crop.

Still a solid upgrade and competitor, just not used to seeing Sony play catch-up to Canon!

[Trek of Joy]

I’m on the fence, while it’s certainly a big upgrade over the a7III, the rolling shutter is still pretty bad. I like the new processor, the new AF, 10-bit and the bump to 33mp, plus some of the smaller details like animal eye AF, the shutter closing so the sensor isn’t exposed when switching lenses (Sony’s are dust magnets) and the full size hdmi. But even with the killer new processor and faster media it’s still a bit behind the competition with 10fps and the 60p crop. The readout is still slow. Makes me think the a9III is looming with the stacked version of this sensor that will do more 4k without a crop and probably 6k. Makes sense with the a1 being priced so much higher.

I’m going to get in on the preorder just to try and get an early copy and then make a decision like I did with the r5. And I’ll probably be able to sell it in a couple months for no loss with everything in such short supply.
 

cheers 

chris 

[androidlad]

26ms rolling shutter for FF 4K 30P.

Interesting feature - In-camera Lens Breathing Compensation, but only works with Sony lenses.

[Django]

Looks like the RS drops down quite nicely in 4K crop modes!

[ntblowz]

So I guess R6 is the only camera at this price that does 4k60p full frame?

1 hour ago, androidlad said:

26ms rolling shutter for FF 4K 30P.

Interesting feature - In-camera Lens Breathing Compensation, but only works with Sony lenses.

Some GM lens have really bad focus breathing, that should certainly helps!

 

I guess I could safely pre-order the new macbook which is way sexier

[Django]

15 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

So I guess R6 is the only camera at this price that does 4k60p full frame?

Yeah, it's really odd that a Sony release doesn't equal/best a year old Canon release..  it kinda feels like the cripple hammer struck not to hurt A7S3 sales.

Still a big upgrade over A7III. Will probably pick one up at some point. Price is just right.

[elgabogomez]

In my opinion it matches the S1H in video at a lower price. Downsides are no raw out, no 6k and no anamorphic modes. Upsides are autofocus, a lot more lenses to pair with…

But the rolling shutter might be the achilles heel of the a7 iv.

[newfoundmass]

31 minutes ago, elgabogomez said:

In my opinion it matches the S1H in video at a lower price. Downsides are no raw out, no 6k and no anamorphic modes. Upsides are autofocus, a lot more lenses to pair with…

But the rolling shutter might be the achilles heel of the a7 iv.

It really doesn't match the S1H at all, nor should it be expected to at this price point.

---

It's a pretty meh release, unless you're already a Sony shooter looking to upgrade from the A7iii, A7c, or one of their APS-C cameras. I guess if you need a b-cam for the A7siii it's a good option, too, though the rolling shutter is not great.

[elgabogomez]

newfoundmass, what doesn’t match the s1h video in the a7 iv in your estimation? They both are fullframe, they both can record 4:2:2 10bit all i or long gop, they both have log profiles and hlg profiles, full hdmi output, usb c transfer and charging… Other than no timecode option I see them as quite comparable 

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, elgabogomez said:

newfoundmass, what doesn’t match the s1h video in the a7 iv in your estimation? They both are fullframe, they both can record 4:2:2 10bit all i or long gop, they both have log profiles and hlg profiles, full hdmi output, usb c transfer and charging… Other than no timecode option I see them as quite comparable 

One is a video focused camera, the other is a hybrid with good video specs. You can't say the A7iv matches the S1H when it can't do 6k, doesn't have as good IBIS, doesn't support anamorphic recording, doesn't have video focused features like timecode sync, doesn't have shutter angle, doesn't have nearly as nice of a EVF, has worse rolling shutter, etc. 

All the little things the S1H has that are meant for professional videographers and cinematographers add up. 

[ntblowz]

1 hour ago, elgabogomez said:

newfoundmass, what doesn’t match the s1h video in the a7 iv in your estimation? They both are fullframe, they both can record 4:2:2 10bit all i or long gop, they both have log profiles and hlg profiles, full hdmi output, usb c transfer and charging… Other than no timecode option I see them as quite comparable 

No open gate, no anamorphic desqueeze, no anamorphic IBIS mode, those new FF anamorphic best match with S1H than all other cameras which only shoot 16:9 on video.

[Django]

For sure if you're into anamorphic lenses, Panasonic set themselves apart from the rest.. but that's a rather niche market though isn't it? 😉 

I've read about those new SIRUI FF anamorphic lenses available in all popular mounts, why are they best paired on a S1H?  I thought the S1H anamorphic mode cropped into Super35? As for the desqueeze preview, couldn't an Atomos handle that? Just curious, I have close to no experience with anamorphic but I'm interested in those new SIRUI lenses.. 

[TheBoogieKnight]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

One is a video focused camera, the other is a hybrid with good video specs. You can't say the A7iv matches the S1H when it can't do 6k, doesn't have as good IBIS, doesn't support anamorphic recording, doesn't have video focused features like timecode sync, doesn't have shutter angle, doesn't have nearly as nice of a EVF, has worse rolling shutter, etc. 

All the little things the S1H has that are meant for professional videographers and cinematographers add up. 

I'd happily give all of them up (other than the IBIS) for the ability to actually punch-to-focus during recording and an HDMI out that doesn't have horrendous latency.

[TheBoogieKnight]

23 minutes ago, Django said:

For sure if you're into anamorphic lenses, Panasonic set themselves apart from the rest.. but that's a rather niche market though isn't it? 😉 

I've read about those new SIRUI FF anamorphic lenses available in all popular mounts, why are they best paired on a S1H?  I thought the S1H anamorphic mode cropped into Super35? As for the desqueeze preview, couldn't an Atomos handle that? Just curious, I have close to no experience with anamorphic but I'm interested in those new SIRUI lenses.. 

You can shoot open-gate with that lens on the S1 and S1H.  You can set a desqueeze but I don't think 1.6 is available (but you can get close). Pretty bad rolling shutter in open gate though but it's usable.

[newfoundmass]

2 hours ago, Django said:

For sure if you're into anamorphic lenses, Panasonic set themselves apart from the rest.. but that's a rather niche market though isn't it? 😉 

I've read about those new SIRUI FF anamorphic lenses available in all popular mounts, why are they best paired on a S1H?  I thought the S1H anamorphic mode cropped into Super35? As for the desqueeze preview, couldn't an Atomos handle that? Just curious, I have close to no experience with anamorphic but I'm interested in those new SIRUI lenses.. 

It's a niche but a growing one and big enough already to be a difference maker for people. I personally have little use for it, but as more anamorphic lenses get released the bigger it will get until it's run into the ground, like shallow DOF has been. All part of chasing the "cinematic" look. 

The A7iv will do most of what people need it to do, but it's not an S1H. And that's OK. It'll sell like crazy to the YouTubers that didn't already drop all that money on the A7siii. 

[Django]

25 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

It's a niche but a growing one and big enough already to be a difference maker for people. I personally have little use for it, but as more anamorphic lenses get released the bigger it will get until it's run into the ground, like shallow DOF has been. All part of chasing the "cinematic" look. 

It's growing but no way is it getting as popular as shallow DOF (which even your smartphone can now do). Aside from the few available from SIRUI, anamorphic lenses still cost a small fortune and as stated few bodies offer aspect ratios other than 16:9 or have de squeeze.

Quote

The A7iv will do most of what people need it to do, but it's not an S1H. And that's OK. It'll sell like crazy to the YouTubers that didn't already drop all that money on the A7siii. 

The market for A7IV is a bit wider than just Youtubers. I don't think it'll sell like crazy though as it is substantially more expensive than the previous gen and the FF market is a lot more crowded and competitive than it was three and a half years ago. Just look at this thread, it's hardly gathering much interest. But of course I agree, not competing with S1H which is in another category, closer to BlackMagic imo.

[elgabogomez]

I do anamorphic shooting as is one of my obsessions, the S1h is close to be perfect for anamorphic but has several shortcomings. The open gate mode is 4:2:0 h265 long gop and there is no way to upgrade from that, not even externally. The s35 anamorphic mode is not full 4perf height, it’s 15mm height instead of 18mm. The rolling shutter is exacerbated when on anamorphic to jelly town. Full frame anamorphic is something quite recent (Cooke and panavision) and now vazen and sirui, all of them in the last 3 years. So unless you adapt projector scopes, that leaves the rest of the anamorphic lenses in the world in a middle ground between being cropped on the s35 mode on the s1h or not covering the open gate mode. I would have loved the Bs1h to solve either the rolling shutter speed or the 6k open gate mode to be 4:2:2 all i (even down sampled to 3240 x 2160 would do it for me) or come up with a 4perf crop…

Back to the Sony 7 iv, how much worse is the rolling shutter compared to the s1h is something to pay attention. But for 24 or 30 frames in 10bit all i and 4k 60 slow motion (which in the Sony is also all i and not 4:2:0 like the Panasonic) which is a “line in the sand standard for quality video footage I think (again in my opinion) very comparable.

[Django]

Interesting, well looks like even the mighty S1H has got some pretty glaring limitations..

At 6K 3:2 mode the S1H has a whopping 29.7ms of RS. Barely usable outside of locked shots.

Anamorphic shooting aside then, it is certainly possible to compare (16:9) IQ:

S1H has 5.9K. A7IV has oversampled 4K from 7K.

In 16:9 4K/5.9K RS averages at 24ms. That's about what the A7IV does.

10-bit is 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2. Win for the A7IV.

4K60p is cropped on both.

Sony has latest-gen PDAF with tracking vs contrast AF.

Sony has SLog3 & S-Cinetone profile. Not sure about the Panasonic.

Anything else concerning IQ?

 

 

[stephen]

It's a personal choice.
If you shoot only internally Sony A7 IV looks like a better pick. But most of the times I'll add a 5'' monitor, cage with top handle to the camera anyway. With Panasonic S series it could be a recorder as well. It gives me 12bit BRAW which is great codec to work with in Resolve and gives slightly better IQ than 10bit 4:2:2 internal. Don't need tracking autofocus. Panasonic S5 costed me only 1100 Euro practically new. Until Sony gives me BRAW on external recorder and prices go down a little, Panasonic S series are my choice.

Sony A7 IV is a great camera for the price, no doubt about it.

[TheBoogieKnight]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Interesting, well looks like even the mighty S1H has got some pretty glaring limitations..

At 6K 3:2 mode the S1H has a whopping 29.7ms of RS. Barely usable outside of locked shots.

Anamorphic shooting aside then, it is certainly possible to compare (16:9) IQ:

S1H has 5.9K. A7IV has oversampled 4K from 7K.

In 16:9 4K/5.9K RS averages at 24ms. That's about what the A7IV does.

10-bit is 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2. Win for the A7IV.

4K60p is cropped on both.

Sony has latest-gen PDAF with tracking vs contrast AF.

Sony has SLog3 & S-Cinetone profile. Not sure about the Panasonic.

Anything else concerning IQ?

 

 

There's always a lot of talk about the heavy-handed NR that Sony use in their cameras. It does look like the 7IV is a nice bump up in terms of IQ (other than the rolling shutter and crop) from the 7SIII. The Panasonics are 4:2:2 unless you use the crop modes (which you have to for 4k 50/60) or 6k/open gate when they drop down to 4:2:0. I'm not too bothered about the crop on either to be honest, the IQ is still great. The S1 lacks an AA filter so you can get moiré at times (never really been an issue here), do we know if the 7IV has an AA filter yet?

Still happy with my S1s, paid under £800 for my last two but I'm definitely thinking of adding a 7IV for gimbal work.