Next generation cinema camera battle - who will win?

[Scott Freestyle]

[quote author=MANYHANDS link=topic=631.msg4626#msg4626 date=1335297920]
Hi Andrew,

I'm a long-time listener, first-time caller, as they say. I just firstly wanted to say how much I appreciate your work. I hope you get some good discounts!

Just wanted to mention that I just went to the Bradford Film Festival and saw my 5Dii film "Trading Licks" on an IMAX SCREEN!!! last night. It was a salutary experience.

I should preface what I'm saying by pointing out that it was projected off Digibeta (which I think is only 1000 lines - correct me if I'm wrong)and we may have made mistakes in post bouncing between FCP Premiere and Resolve - having said that it looked ABSOLUTELY FINE!!!

The banding was there - which we had picked up in the grade - some noise, although not in the blacks. Sharpness was NOT AN ISSUE - yes there are no cityscapes or wides of trees in the film - but sharpness is relative. It still looked pretty filmic. Skin texture and eye-lashes were sharp.

If I could share the lessons learned  - it would be that the hand-held didn't work so well, and that I could have shot more wides. But seriously - all this talk of 4K and RAW...The important thing is to get the camera on a slider or legs, whenever possible, and shoot wides. I'm definately getting the 5D3 after this experience.

In my single days - i once read a dating book which suggested turning the lights down low - as pupils will dilate- tricking the date into thinking she is in love! This is why large sensors work. If Clooney or Johannson were shot on the Black-Magic their careers would be over... we go to the cinema to dream, not see things too clearly.
[/quote]

I've been a reader of these for a while, but this post made me join. Great Post..As for the flack that has been handed to Canon about the 5D3, there is something that needs to be addressed. This camera is a magnificent piece of hardware. It's all but eliminated the problems that plagued the mk2 and it's added features that will improve your production.

Opinions have been spread about this camera by people that don't even own it...have never shot with it or graded it's footage. Internet forums can be full of useful information, but they can also give rise to people regurgitating information that they have not experienced first hand.

Whatever camera you choose.. Have fun..!!

[Giovanni Bertani]

No real world tests and reviews so no sense to judge on the specs alone. Let's see more footage of 4k Fs700, uncompressed BMC and c500 to see where they stand.

[Tzedekh]

[quote author=jindrich link=topic=631.msg4636#msg4636 date=1335312227]$20k being an HD S35 camera, with S-Log, EOS-to-PL, 60p, XLRs, NDs, and added 10bit 444 recorder, can somebody build, distribute and support on a world level a similar one for much less?

Not unless Apple gets in.[/quote]
Apple would likely never do it, because the volume wouldn't be there. It hasn't become a $600 billion company by building expensive, relatively low-volume products. Apple produces both its PC hardware [i]and[/i] the OS, but its market share of the PC market has always been small compared with Windows-based computers. That's why it appears to be considering leaving the high end and discontinuing the Mac Pro. High-volume consumer products are what catapulted the company into the stratosphere. So it seems doubtful that Apple would enter a niche market and create a product for which a $10,000 price would be considered cheap.

[PAVP]

I love what the BCC is bringing to a lower price point.  Who can't be excited by 12bit Raw, ProRes, DNxHD and 13 stop of DR?  It's not a perfect device but what in that price range is?  I know that one of the things that annoys me most is not being able to deal with highlights and not being able to color grade without destroying the footage.  I really have gotten used to a severe crop having the GH1, so I think I could live with that and if anything the low price allows us to still be able to afford another DSLR for FF, Lowlight or 60p if we need that any of those features.  There are acceptable options at $3,000.00 or less.

I really like what i've seen from the D800 and I think it would be a tough choice between the D800 and BCC.  I'll be interested to see some comparisons down the line.  I'm also still waiting to see what the GH3 looks like.

[biginvegas]

[i]we go to the cinema to dream, not see things too clearly.[/i]

Love that comment by the way.

Andrew and y'all, you've all lost your minds. We are living in the cinema digital age generation, it has begun... this is  fun , I love reading about new technologies, latest camera and equipment designed to make that picture of yours just a little more cinematic but you have to jump into the deep end of filmmaking, sharks and all. Work with what you have and use the look from the specific camera and lens [i]you own[/i] to tell your story.  There is no Hollywood, broadcast bias or cabal  telling you your shit 'aint good enough because it was shot on a GH2.  They don't care, they want authenticity and courage from you. This film in Berlin last year was shot on a 7D, one lens, a monopod, crew of one, zero budget.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCBRhgic2Jw
The filmmaker lives in Calcutta...

My point is Andrew, can you use this unique platform of yours to mix it up just a little!

[P4INKiller]

[quote author=biginvegas link=topic=631.msg4647#msg4647 date=1335353927]
[i]we go to the cinema to dream, not see things too clearly.[/i]

Love that comment by the way.

Andrew and y'all, you've all lost your minds. We are living in the cinema digital age generation, it has begun... this is  fun , I love reading about new technologies, latest camera and equipment designed to make that picture of yours just a little more cinematic but you have to jump into the deep end of filmmaking, sharks and all. Work with what you have and use the look from the specific camera and lens [i]you own[/i] to tell your story.  There is no Hollywood, broadcast bias or cabal  telling you your shit 'aint good enough because it was shot on a GH2.  They don't care, they want authenticity and courage from you. This film in Berlin last year was shot on a 7D, one lens, a monopod, crew of one, zero budget.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCBRhgic2Jw
The filmmaker lives in Calcutta...

My point is Andrew, can you use this unique platform of yours to mix it up just a little!
[/quote]

Amazing.
Seeing things like this makes me wish I too was able to get a foot in the door.

[jay shay]

Hey great discussion.  These are my thoughts:

SONY
Nobody can guarantee the future, but Andrew's pick of Sony is best bet.

SONY SWITCHEROO
RED with the RED-ONE and then CANON with 5D&7D were cheap alternatives to a more powerful but too pricey SONY.
SONY's price has come down, CANON and RED's has gone up.
SONY's camera quality has gone up, CANON and RED's has gone up too
...but not as high as SONY's.

SONY F65 - PINNACLE OF VIDEO CAMERA WORLD
Though priced out of our range, the F65 is the most powerful, high performing camera in the world now. 
This is an objective statement over and in the following individual categories:
COLOR - No other camera does 16 bit RAW.   
PIXEL RESOLUTION - No other sensor has a 1:1 correspondance between sensor photosite and a pixel's R G or B value.

WHAT IS TRUE 4K?
I was confused by this so I asked around.  Most people just don't know and (un) intentionally spread misinformation.
John Galt knows.
Robert Prime knows.
So now I know.  Not because I'm smart but because I finally got to ask the right people.
I hope this makes it easier ignore it otherwise.

In English K = 1,000 when talking about money.
In English K = 1,024 when talking about the horizontal PIXEL resolution of a video image frame.
Thus we understand the EOSHD post [i]BLACKMAGIC CAMERA - 2.5K for $3K?[/i]

K x 4 = 4K 
(1024 x 4) = 4,096 pixels along the horizontal side of the rectangular video image
But this only talks about the # of horizontal pixels.  What about the # of vertical pixels?
The # of vertical pixels varies....the # of horizontal pixels varies too but not as much.

STANDARD                DIMENSIONS            NUMBER OF PIXELS (image) NUMBER OF PHOTOSITES (Sensor)
Digital cinema 4K 4096 × 1714 = 7,020,544                          x3 = 21,051,632
Digital cinema 4K 3996 × 2160 = 8,631,360                          x3 = 25,894,080
Academy 4K         3656 × 2664 = 9,739,584                          x3 = 29,218,752
Full Aperture 4K   4096 × 3112 = 12,746,752                        x3 = 38,240,256

SO WHAT IS TRUE 4K?
From the F65 to the FS700 and the ALEXA and EPIC;SCARLET in between... 

TRUE 4K IMAGE DIMENSIONS
ALL 4K cameras output TRUE 4K IMAGE dimensions (4,096 horizontal pixels columns x 1,714-3,112 vertical rows).
NO 4K camera has a TRUE 4K sensor.
Thus NONE has TRUE 4K information, just TRUE 4K dimensions.

TRUE 4K SENSOR
Each pixel in a 4K image is made up of a Red, Green and Blue Channel.
Each photosite on any sensor converts into either a Red Green or Blue Value/Channel.
Therefore a True 4K sensor has 3 photosites to 1 pixel, each dedicated to a single Red, Green and Blue value.

Such a sensor does not exist...that would be a sensor with over 38,000,000 photosites.  Not yet, not yet.

But the F65 comes the closest to a true 4K sensor -  20,000,000 photosites. 
The Alexa ARRI has 7,462,400 photosites
The Red EPIC has 13,824,000 photosites

1 actual live green photosite for every pixel. 
Not 1 actual live red and blue photosite for every pixel...but more than RED or ARRI .
The Green Channel the SONY F65 has TRUE 4K...not for Red and Blue but GREEN is most important.

BECAUSE
Green is the luminance channel. 
Luminance = resolution. 

What about the missing color values? 
They are interpolated/guessed based on the photosites that do exist on the sensor.

I wondered then....how does District 9, Social Network and other Red movies look so good if their images are fake?

They are good guessers.  Interpolation isn't necessarily a bad thing.
So RED Epic, ARRI Alexa and SONY F65 are all good guessers.
But certainty is better than guessing.
And the F65 guesses least and knows most.

And the same price as the Alexa, even with the expensive SR cards accounted for. 


The F65, it's insane.  Technology is catching up.  Thunderbolt is one way in which it is doing that. 
Interestingly enough though Blackmagic beat it to the punch.

BLACKMAGIC CAMERA
You can say it's a sure thing without sounding the death knell for DSLRs guys, they aren't mutually exclusive.
But it's a sure thing...
- The thunderbolt 
- the touch screen
- the design
It's  very telling of something you needn't be told to know
Apple ALSO does post production - No less than BM, just a different aspect of it: NLE vs conversion & color correction.

MOREOVER, Apple gets its fingers in everything. 
10 years ago would you have know the iPod was a Trojan Horse gameboy and cell phone? 
Why don't you ask Nintendo and Sony (Ericsson)?  What do you think they'd say?
They'll come to cameras and they'll do so by either learning/copying Blackmagic Camera or co-opting them
Bet on that.
Gobble Gobble, the way of business.  Only unlike the animal kingdom, companies often look to get eaten. 

STILL CAMERAS vs DEDICATED ONES
Still, Video and Still camera in one is always going to be desirable to a lot of people so DSLRs are not dead, they are just going through a rough patch.  Concept is still sound even if the XLR inputs aren't.

The mass market wants a stills camera that can take video, good or bad, they still do. 
And they'll get one.

And with the GH3 and a certain Russian, I'm sure that we'll at least have one for the next round
and EOSHD Andrew will be afoot keeping us abreast if he isn't snatched up by some company.

[Leang]

[quote author=biginvegas link=topic=631.msg4647#msg4647 date=1335353927]
[i]we go to the cinema to dream, not see things too clearly.[/i]

Love that comment by the way.

Andrew and y'all, you've all lost your minds. We are living in the cinema digital age generation, it has begun... this is  fun , I love reading about new technologies, latest camera and equipment designed to make that picture of yours just a little more cinematic but you have to jump into the deep end of filmmaking, sharks and all. Work with what you have and use the look from the specific camera and lens [i]you own[/i] to tell your story.  There is no Hollywood, broadcast bias or cabal  telling you your shit 'aint good enough because it was shot on a GH2.  They don't care, they want authenticity and courage from you. This film in Berlin last year was shot on a 7D, one lens, a monopod, crew of one, zero budget.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCBRhgic2Jw
The filmmaker lives in Calcutta...

My point is Andrew, can you use this unique platform of yours to mix it up just a little!
[/quote]

nasty B&W tones and some shots hightlight clipping.  they probably decided to go B&W because it was better than grading color.  simple music video DSLR techniques...  if it gets too easy like this then we should worry about the future of cinema criticism less the gear!  sorry I'm just judging by the framing for most of these shots

[leftedit]

apparently the BM Cinema camera doesnt shoot interlaced?
that wont help.
although final spec is not out yet...  ???

[HurtinMinorKey]

[quote author=jay shay link=topic=631.msg4729#msg4729 date=1335424083]
But the F65 comes the closest to a true 4K sensor -  20,000,000 photosites. 
The Alexa ARRI has 7,462,400 photosites
The Red EPIC has 13,824,000 photosites

[/quote]

Great post!

Where did you get this info? Also, when they claim EPIC is 12-bit, does that mean that each photosite carries 12 bits of info?

[jay shay]

The info is on the company's own websites, but one that sums it up is:
http://broadcastengineering.com/production/4k2k/

Read John Galt's the TRUTH ABOUT PIXELS.  Google it.  He'll lace you up on some digital game.