Just bought a new camera for 2022 - the small but mighty GX85

[kye]

Oh, and to clarify my earlier poor wording, the waveform where everything is clipping (below) is SOOC, and doesn't have the curve applied.

The bottom waveform with the red showing is the one with the curve applied.

[projectwoofer]

3 hours ago, kye said:

Oh yeah, and I always have AWB on.  My rationale is that I'm always wandering between different lighting conditions and cameras now are pretty smart about things, so regardless of if I was doing WB manually or AWB I'd have to adjust it in post anyway, so I may as well just use AWB because it's more likely to get it in the ballpark, which helps when not shooting RAW to get it as close as you can in-camera.

Having said that though, I don't recall having to adjust this camera yet, so it seems good.

I thought I would try the convenience of AWB in video the summer of 2018 if I remember correctly. It was such a nightmare to correct the footage in post so I swore I'd never do it again. 😁

[kye]

7 hours ago, projectwoofer said:

I thought I would try the convenience of AWB in video the summer of 2018 if I remember correctly. It was such a nightmare to correct the footage in post so I swore I'd never do it again. 😁

It really depends on where you're filming.

I shoot exclusively in available light, in realtime, without directing anything that happens.  What happens happens, I shoot what I shoot, and I get what I get.  This often means I shoot in situations with lighting so terrible it would make you cry.

Have you ever shot something on the wrong WB setting and couldn't recover it in post because it was too badly damaged?  I have done tests to see how much latitude there is and it's not much.  Have you ever shot something in post and the WB controls in your NLE max out and you have to apply colour correction in multiple passes to return a shot to neutral?  I have.

Here's a final grade I did of a little film I shot with the GF3 getting some food one evening:

Those last shots are interesting.  Here's one SOOC:

That shot was filmed with AWB.  The lighting was so off-colour that it maxed out the cameras AWB adjustments.  Had I chosen a fixed WB for this shot the SOOC would have been way worse, and probably unusable.  Had I stopped to manually set the WB, it wouldn't have helped - the camera didn't have enough latitude.

Notice from the scene that there are several sets of lighting in the communal area, and every truck has its own internal lighting, and some have their own external lighting too.  These lights will have been chosen to be the cheapest possible - high CRI LED lighting these are not!  

Other shots were completely fine, like this one SOOC:

In practice, AWB will take you towards what the camera thinks is the right WB.  It won't get it perfect, but it will take you in that direction.  Had I shot this with a fixed WB, I would have been trying to push the GF3s (rather meagre) 17Mbps further in post than I had to.

The sequence is this:

• Camera reads RAW data off the sensor
• Camera applies WB (fixed or AWB)
• Camera applies colour profile, compresses stream and writes video to media
• You adjust WB in post

The bottleneck is the colour profile of the camera followed by the compression.  If fixed WB will get the compressed stream closer to perfect then do that, but I find most of the time that AWB helps me get close in difficult situations, and the rest of the time almost never needs to be touched.

[projectwoofer]

21 hours ago, kye said:

It really depends on where you're filming.

I shoot exclusively in available light, in realtime, without directing anything that happens.  What happens happens, I shoot what I shoot, and I get what I get.  This often means I shoot in situations with lighting so terrible it would make you cry.

Have you ever shot something on the wrong WB setting and couldn't recover it in post because it was too badly damaged?  I have done tests to see how much latitude there is and it's not much.  Have you ever shot something in post and the WB controls in your NLE max out and you have to apply colour correction in multiple passes to return a shot to neutral?  I have.

Here's a final grade I did of a little film I shot with the GF3 getting some food one evening:

Those last shots are interesting.  Here's one SOOC:

That shot was filmed with AWB.  The lighting was so off-colour that it maxed out the cameras AWB adjustments.  Had I chosen a fixed WB for this shot the SOOC would have been way worse, and probably unusable.  Had I stopped to manually set the WB, it wouldn't have helped - the camera didn't have enough latitude.

Notice from the scene that there are several sets of lighting in the communal area, and every truck has its own internal lighting, and some have their own external lighting too.  These lights will have been chosen to be the cheapest possible - high CRI LED lighting these are not!  

Other shots were completely fine, like this one SOOC:

In practice, AWB will take you towards what the camera thinks is the right WB.  It won't get it perfect, but it will take you in that direction.  Had I shot this with a fixed WB, I would have been trying to push the GF3s (rather meagre) 17Mbps further in post than I had to.

The sequence is this:

• Camera reads RAW data off the sensor
• Camera applies WB (fixed or AWB)
• Camera applies colour profile, compresses stream and writes video to media
• You adjust WB in post

The bottleneck is the colour profile of the camera followed by the compression.  If fixed WB will get the compressed stream closer to perfect then do that, but I find most of the time that AWB helps me get close in difficult situations, and the rest of the time almost never needs to be touched.

How are you dealing with potential color shifts during a shot when using AWB?

[kye]

2 hours ago, projectwoofer said:

How are you dealing with potential color shifts during a shot when using AWB?

My edits tend to not have a shot longer than a few seconds, so in that sense things don't normally change that much and I'll grade each clip on the timeline separately.

However, a really quick trick in Resolve is to grade a clip how you want it to appear at the start, then copy it and adjust the grade so it's it how you want it at a particular time, then have the second clip fade in over the top of the first clip.  It's an easy way to "automate" every parameter available rather than just what your NLE provides in terms of "automation" features.

I suspect your question assumes that the AWB is the culprit for the colour shifting over the course of a shot when everything else remains static, but I haven't found this to be the case really.

AWB and exposure in general will shift when the environment shifts, such as lighting changing (eg, sun going behind a cloud) or you moving the camera (panning or walking outside from inside etc).  In these situations you'll want to have an adjustment in post anyway, and cinematographers will do things like pull-aperture to try and keep a reasonable exposure.  In a sense, the camera auto-changing these things is just a robot doing these things for you, that once again, you would want to do yourself anyway and having it done mostly in-camera just helps get the compressed file closest to where you need it to be.

Maybe you've had bad cameras that "hunt" with their AWB functions?  It's never been a problem for me.

[kye]

3 hours ago, projectwoofer said:

How are you dealing with potential color shifts during a shot when using AWB?

I should also say that nailing WB in post, when shooting in difficult lighting conditions and without a grey card, has actually been one of the most difficult skills I've had to learn as a colourist.

I found that routinely I would struggle to get a shot looking ok, but if I posted it to the colourist forums they'd reply super quickly with shots that just looked right on, and when I copied them I'd found they'd just done a simple WB adjustment, added contrast and saturation.  I also find that I see small WB errors regularly on videos where people shoot in mixed lighting, even on those "cinematic" videos, so I suspect I have become attuned to seeing it and knowing what direction to push it in.

The more I learn colour grading the more I realise that stunning colour grading isn't using 27 fancy controls and adjustments, it's using the very very basic controls and having serious knowledge about how to use them.  

Great colour is done much more simply and much more skill-fully than you'd think.  There's a common saying "simplify for results, complicate to profit" and the YT colourists are definitely interested in profit.  There's not much of an audience for colourists who just hammer out great looking grades with the same simple tools over and over again, and the only real advice they can give is "go and grade 10,000 shots using only the LGG controls".  (BTW, that's really good advice!)

[kye]

@PannySVHS I heard that you have the GX85 and Fujinon 12.5mm f1.4 lens.  Is this right?  Does the fuji cover the GX85 in 4K mode?  I'm eying off an eBay auction, but want to confirm it's a good option before buying one.

[PannySVHS]

@kye yes it covers it in 4K mode and in 4K photo mode. 16to9 with slighty dark corners. Love this lens, colour rendition is fantastic and threedimensionalty is terrific. Little lens was recommended to me by our friend mercer.

[mercer]

@kye told ya! 🤪

[kye]

3 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@kye yes it covers it in 4K mode and in 4K photo mode. 16to9 with slighty dark corners. Love this lens, colour rendition is fantastic and threedimensionalty is terrific. Little lens was recommended to me by our friend mercer.

Damn..  I had just talked myself out of wanting one, but now your glowing review has me searching for them again!

I don't know what it is about vintage lenses, but it's definitely something...  😆😆😆

[BTM_Pix]

On 11/22/2021 at 10:44 AM, kye said:

I'm contemplating the 12-60mm F2.8-4 which seems to be a good match from the reviews I've seen.  Curious to hear others thoughts on this.

By the way, I don't have any with it from the GX85 but I do have these from the OG Pocket.

The extra reach and, particularly, the IS won't do you any harm with it on your BM cameras as a single lens solution for travelling. Although the extra crop of the BM cameras means that the wide end can make it a bit more challenging at times.

 

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 11/25/2021 at 8:18 PM, kye said:

My edits tend to not have a shot longer than a few seconds, so in that sense things don't normally change that much and I'll grade each clip on the timeline separately.

However, a really quick trick in Resolve is to grade a clip how you want it to appear at the start, then copy it and adjust the grade so it's it how you want it at a particular time, then have the second clip fade in over the top of the first clip.  It's an easy way to "automate" every parameter available rather than just what your NLE provides in terms of "automation" features.

I suspect your question assumes that the AWB is the culprit for the colour shifting over the course of a shot when everything else remains static, but I haven't found this to be the case really.

AWB and exposure in general will shift when the environment shifts, such as lighting changing (eg, sun going behind a cloud) or you moving the camera (panning or walking outside from inside etc).  In these situations you'll want to have an adjustment in post anyway, and cinematographers will do things like pull-aperture to try and keep a reasonable exposure.  In a sense, the camera auto-changing these things is just a robot doing these things for you, that once again, you would want to do yourself anyway and having it done mostly in-camera just helps get the compressed file closest to where you need it to be.

Maybe you've had bad cameras that "hunt" with their AWB functions?  It's never been a problem for me.

In fact, I always used AWB until a shot that I've taken on a trip - with a GX85, by the way. It was climbing the stairs in the center atrium of the British Museum in London with a gimbal.

Even more strange, the atrium is completely flooded with sun light from the ceiling, which in theory should have caused no troubles with AWB. Don't know if the camera picked the warmer tones of the surrounding walls, but from the bottom to the top of the stairs the white balance shifted back and forth around 5 times, ruining the shot.

Still forget almost all the times to lock the white balance while filming (I'm an amateur, after all), but this case changed my mind about AWB - now I almost only film my daughter inside home, and with my X-S10 sometime I noticed some AWB shifting too.

[John Matthews]

FYI- I'm repurchasing the Panasonic 14mm F2.5 II. That lens with its size was too hard to resist. It wasn't a need, but I took so many good photos with it and I will probably never let it go again. Definitely unique in M43.

[kye]

17 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

By the way, I don't have any with it from the GX85 but I do have these from the OG Pocket.

The extra reach and, particularly, the IS won't do you any harm with it on your BM cameras as a single lens solution for travelling. Although the extra crop of the BM cameras means that the wide end can make it a bit more challenging at times.

 

Damn - those are great looking shots!

Thanks for the feedback on the 12-60/2.8-4.  The reviews and sample footage were all quite positive too.

One of the main drivers for buying my 12-35/2.8 was as a walk-around lens for the P2K (OG BMPCC), but I've since worked out that the screen is polarised the wrong way for my sunglasses, making it completely black, so the idea of that as a tiny setup has fallen flat.  Now I have the GX85 for the tiny setup I'll likely sell the P2K but might keep the Micro, I'll see.

15 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

In fact, I always used AWB until a shot that I've taken on a trip - with a GX85, by the way. It was climbing the stairs in the center atrium of the British Museum in London with a gimbal.

Even more strange, the atrium is completely flooded with sun light from the ceiling, which in theory should have caused no troubles with AWB. Don't know if the camera picked the warmer tones of the surrounding walls, but from the bottom to the top of the stairs the white balance shifted back and forth around 5 times, ruining the shot.

Still forget almost all the times to lock the white balance while filming (I'm an amateur, after all), but this case changed my mind about AWB - now I almost only film my daughter inside home, and with my X-S10 sometime I noticed some AWB shifting too.

I think those kind of shots, walking from one place to another, is really the challenge for AWB.  If that shot was critical then it's likely to be salvageable, but it would probably take real work.

It might be worth saying explicitly just for the record, I'm not a fan of AWB or manual WB, they're just settings that each have an application, and each definitely have their pros and cons which should be understood to get the best results.  I can only speak from my experience, but everyones is likely to be different.

I'm also definitely an amateur and remembering everything while out shooting is a real challenge - there are so many things to think about simultaneously.  Part of the reason that on commercial sets there are so many crew!

9 hours ago, John Matthews said:

FYI- I'm repurchasing the Panasonic 14mm F2.5 II. That lens with its size was too hard to resist. It wasn't a need, but I took so many good photos with it and I will probably never let it go again. Definitely unique in M43.

Nice.  That lens actually has quite a nice balance between modern and vintage characteristics.  Plus it's so darn small!

[billdoubleu]

Kye, I'm sure you've figured it out, but just-in-case you haven't, those gf3 batteries will work in the gx85. Quite a revelation for me, as I had three genuine batteries going to waste.

I love this camera and have recently thought about buying another one just to mount to another lens. I use primes and these cameras are too inexpensive not to consider that a reasonable move.

I often refer to this thread:

when in need of some inspiration to shoot with my gx85/ g85. The WB notes from Andy Lee are particularly of use. I played with those suggestions and have been much happier with the colors I get out of these cameras since.

 

 

 

[PannySVHS]

@John Matthews  I own the high resolving 20mm 1.7. The 14mm is even higher resolving and one of the sharpest m43 lenses. Kinda interested in it as well. I just don´t like fly by wire focus. But who really does.:)

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 11/30/2021 at 3:04 PM, John Matthews said:

FYI- I'm repurchasing the Panasonic 14mm F2.5 II. That lens with its size was too hard to resist. It wasn't a need, but I took so many good photos with it and I will probably never let it go again. Definitely unique in M43.

This lens had one of the best video AF in my GX9. In fact, for vlogging product shots (that ones which you put the product in front of you, AF picks it, and goes back to your face when the product is removed) it worked VERY well.

[kye]

21 hours ago, billdoubleu said:

Kye, I'm sure you've figured it out, but just-in-case you haven't, those gf3 batteries will work in the gx85. Quite a revelation for me, as I had three genuine batteries going to waste.

I love this camera and have recently thought about buying another one just to mount to another lens. I use primes and these cameras are too inexpensive not to consider that a reasonable move.

I often refer to this thread:

when in need of some inspiration to shoot with my gx85/ g85. The WB notes from Andy Lee are particularly of use. I played with those suggestions and have been much happier with the colors I get out of these cameras since.

Thanks, and yes, I had figured out the battery similarities - what a happy surprise!

IIRC I got a genuine battery with the GF3 and two third-party ones, which died a long time ago I think and are now gone, but to my surprise the genuine one still goes strong and so is enjoying renewed use.  Of course, I've been playing with the GF3 from time to time as well, so it's not like it was gathering dust.  

I will have a look through that thread, thanks for pointing it out.  Have you investigated using an external recorder with the GX85?  If so, how did it go?

9 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@John Matthews  I own the high resolving 20mm 1.7. The 14mm is even higher resolving and one of the sharpest m43 lenses. Kinda interested in it as well. I just don´t like fly by wire focus. But who really does.:)

I would imagine that you're already aware of this, so this is more of a PSA than a reply as such.

It's always good to test resolution and lens characteristics by shooting RAW stills, as well as in every codec you intend to shoot with the camera, plus the post-processing you are likely to do.

This is because although a RAW still might reveal a softness to a lens, that might not be visible using the cameras 4K mode which might downscale the image, or the 1080p mode if you use that, and of course the NR / sharpening / processing / compression will obscure considerable fine detail or softness as well.  

I also suggest that you grade the test clips, render a timeline in your normal delivery format, and if you self-publish (eg, streaming platforms) then upload the output for that site to re-compress your footage as well.  Then view it sitting at a normal distance in a slightly darkened environment and see what is visible then.

Literally no-one has ever said "I spent the extra $2K getting the top-end glass and even though the difference is completely obscured by YouTube compression so none of my viewers will ever be able to tell the difference I still think it was completely worth it"!

[billdoubleu]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Have you investigated using an external recorder with the GX85?  If so, how did it go?

No, I would love to give it a try someday. I'm waiting for one of these Chinese monitor manufacturers to compete with Atomos in the prores recorder space. I'm a horder when it comes to original footage. Even when I put together finished videos I can't seem to let go of the original clips. So, the higher bit rates would bury me in TBs of files in no time.

I will eventually purchase an external monitor either way. I'm a manual focus guy and I find it beyond annoying to nail focus with these puny screens we are supposed to just accept as the standard on mirrorless cameras. I would love to use my phone for this purpose, but that's never as easy as it sounds. Hell, I can't even get the Panasonic app to work with my cameras anymore!

As a side note; the tilt screen on the gx85 is my favorite thing. I can't stand looking off to the side to see my g85 screen.

[John Matthews]

23 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@John Matthews  I own the high resolving 20mm 1.7. The 14mm is even higher resolving and one of the sharpest m43 lenses. Kinda interested in it as well. I just don´t like fly by wire focus. But who really does.:)

I have the 20mm 1.7 too. I've always thought the 20mm had a little sharper images, but the slow AF meant it was hit or miss to get the shot in the first place. Not so with the 14mm and I've always found the AF to perform very well (for photos). I'm going to test it out on my E-m1 ii and E-P7 to see if there's really that much difference with my experience on the GX80 in video AF.

For photos, I can tell you that I'm not so worried with using up to ISO 3200. They cleaned up so well with DXO PhotoLab 5 (made my gx80 shots look like ISO 200).

15 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

This lens had one of the best video AF in my GX9. In fact, for vlogging product shots (that ones which you put the product in front of you, AF picks it, and goes back to your face when the product is removed) it worked VERY well.

I've also seen some good results from YouTubers on that. Again, curious to see the performance on the E-M1 ii with its PDAF.