P4K vs S1/S1H

[HockeyFan12]

I thought I wasn't going to do this, but I'm not 100% sold on the color out of the S1 and am thinking of getting something else to replace it. It's great, but feels better suited for corporate gigs than what I do.

The P6K footage I work with impresses me a lot. The lack of skew, smaller files, and option for a speed booster on the P4K (and the price) makes it more attractive to me personally though.

Anyone own both and shot with them side by side? The magenta tint on the S1, lack of grain in HEVC, etc. don't quite do it for me. I'm VERY biased toward the specific colors and texturing coming from Alexa. Even Red is too sharp and clean for me and I want the closest thing that's cheap. Am I just expecting too much at this price point?

[Emanuel]

Great post! : ) You have EYES... And know what you're doing ;- )

 

- EAG

[Robert Patts]

I have both and they are easily matched.. They are nearly identical color wise when placed side by side. The main difference to me is the highlight rolloff is softer on pocket series.  The S line is nice due to the lack of noise, but the codec is more intensive on the CPU. But there is IBIS. Pick your poison 

[austinchimp]

Have you tried the GHa luts for the S1? I can tell you that they work great and elevate the colour completely. The S1 files have enough data and latitude that you can match to the Alexa pretty well. 

Here's another lut pack that does the same thing - 

 

 

[PannySVHS]

@HockeyFan12 I feel you. It is not that easy to get great color out of the S1 under all conditions. I felt it was best with lit sets. Might sound akward, since the sensor is exellent in low light. It responds much better under tungsten than under HMI. GH5 in my experience was much easier to grade. Could be to the larger color space of the S1 vs GH5. GH5 offering Rec709 even in V-Log L, S1 offering V Gammut.

I bought a BMMCC and I like the colour palette for daylight very much. But that thing is indeed a tricky beast, not even giving my battery status on my BMVA monitor.:) So, pick your apple juice, I guess..

@austinchimp The right camera on the screenshot whispers: It's me, your beautiful Lumix S1.:)

[kye]

13 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I thought I wasn't going to do this, but I'm not 100% sold on the color out of the S1 and am thinking of getting something else to replace it. It's great, but feels better suited for corporate gigs than what I do.

The P6K footage I work with impresses me a lot. The lack of skew, smaller files, and option for a speed booster on the P4K (and the price) makes it more attractive to me personally though.

Anyone own both and shot with them side by side? The magenta tint on the S1, lack of grain in HEVC, etc. don't quite do it for me. I'm VERY biased toward the specific colors and texturing coming from Alexa. Even Red is too sharp and clean for me and I want the closest thing that's cheap. Am I just expecting too much at this price point?

I'd make sure a P4K / P6K would work better for what you do than an S1 - the S1 is likely to be a much more user-friendly camera than the BM cameras, which are basically divas.

In terms of colour and image, nothing beats RAW, and nothing beats a colour matching scheme that works on RAW.  

In terms of @austinchimp comment around colour matching, I've found the GHa LUTs to be extremely finicky to use in practice, and they only really work when conditions are basically perfect.  This is because they don't completely reverse the colour science back to what the sensor reads out, so some of the colour science in the Pana cameras remains.  This is why there are two separate LUTs for different white balances.

Alternatively, Juan Melara did some excellent work replicating ARRI RAW from an Alexa from the BM cameras, which works on the RAW from the P4K or P6K (they're different LUTs IIRC) which is likely to be a much more robust emulation of the colour.

I can understand if you're not loving the texture of a compressed file, but if you're not getting good colour out of your S1 then I'd say you're expecting too much at your skill level.  As a reality check, I'd suggest going and downloading a bunch of Alexa clips and grading them to see what they're like.  Alexa footage looks great when shot by a serious pro and once a professional colourist has done their magic, but looking at the RAW footage taken in less-than-ideal situations is a great way to "add some perspective" about how much of a great image is the camera, and how much is the colourist.  

*hint - it's the colourist*

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, kye said:

I'd make sure a P4K / P6K would work better for what you do than an S1 - the S1 is likely to be a much more user-friendly camera than the BM cameras, which are basically divas.

This is a myth : ) No other user interface is more user-friendly than my Pocket series.

TBH those Japanese camera menus are a piece of crap to those who love photography and make a living from moving pictures :- )

Old school still rules.

- EAG

[TomTheDP]

The Pocket series from BM is fantastic. The issues with them are the non tilting screens and the battery life. This is solved on the 6k PRO. I'd take a 6K pro over the S1 however I'd take the S1 over the OG 6K or 4k. 

The S1 shifts magenta, simply make a bunch of WB presets with a +2 green tint and boom fixed. The Arri has a major green shift, while the LF shifts magenta. It's an easy fix if you do it in camera rather than attempting it in post. I have my Arri WB presets to all +2 magenta and the S1 +2 green. 

If using Davinci ACES + the Varicam35 option is a great way to easily color/exposure correct S1 footage. It's not 100% accurate as the Vacicam color science is different but its pretty close. 

[kye]

8 hours ago, Emanuel said:

This is a myth : ) No other user interface is more user-friendly than my Pocket series.

TBH those Japanese camera menus are a piece of crap to those who love photography and make a living from moving pictures :- )

Old school still rules.

- EAG

There's more to a camera than the user interface.

The more posts I read from you the more I wonder if you're just trolling and missing the point on purpose....

[Emanuel]

5 hours ago, kye said:

There's more to a camera than the user interface.

Of course, but you expressly wrote "user-friendly" which is impossible to detach from their interface advantage (to couple much more not to fit here now) so my experience tells me exactly the opposite.

 

On the leftover, you mean the impression you have on my disagreement about convictions of your own or part of them?

 

How come to miss the point when the OP is precisely asking to compare the Pocket series with just another Japanese camera with those fancy but countless-and-useless (a good part of them!) menu options?!

 

 

I'll tell you very straighforward what I see, reading part of a few stuff over these or other boards for a few years today:

 

Before anything else, filmmaking is not geeking: two completely separate human areas of interest -- I fill the cup for both, so I guess I can have something to say either way ; )

 

And I see much more fanboyism focused on this or that brand rather than actual facts : ) Unfairly misleading at times, for the first of the two.

 

Reason why you read what you read from me. Don't shoot the messenger! LOL ;- )

 

[kye]

6 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Of course, but you expressly wrote "user-friendly" which is impossible to detach from their interface advantage (to couple much more not to fit here now) so my experience tells me exactly the opposite.

 

On the leftover, you mean the impression you have on my disagreement about convictions of your own or part of them?

 

How come to miss the point when the OP is precisely asking to compare the Pocket series with just another Japanese camera with those fancy but countless-and-useless (a good part of them!) menu options?!

 

 

I'll tell you very straighforward what I see, reading part of a few stuff over these or other boards for a few years today:

 

Before anything else, filmmaking is not geeking: two completely separate human areas of interest -- I fill the cup for both, so I guess I can have something to say either way ; )

 

And I see much more fanboyism focused on this or that brand rather than actual facts : ) Unfairly misleading at times, for the first of the two.

 

Reason why you read what you read from me. Don't shoot the messenger! LOL ;- )

 

I'm not shooting the messenger - if a person opens their mouth and strange content comes out then questioning it isn't "shooting" anything, and your opinions are your own, so you're also not a "messenger".

I routinely see dramatic contradictions in what you say, which you can frame as "filling the cup for both" but I see a lot of logical error and internal inconsistencies.  Saying, for example, that you don't know of any differences between cinema and video cameras, and then when I take a good amount of time to list a number of them, replying with a dismissive "I know" comment.  Well, either you do know what the differences are or you don't, but there is no "cup" that includes knowing something and also not knowing it at the same time.  Or, at least, there isn't room in conversations about cameras, and these comments should be relegated to the philosophy forums where people can endlessly debate if cameras exist or if they don't, along with the entire world and each other.

To try and return to the actual point, in terms of the BM cameras being divas, I'll grant that the IU is very nice to use, sure.  I'll also grant that the P6K Pro is far more self-contained than the P6K or P4K.  However, you still need to use an IR filter on them.  You still need external media to get the high-resolution modes when shooting RAW.  You still need a rig or OIS lenses to get relatively stable footage.

If you are talking about the P6K and P4K, then there are huge additional challenges such as needing an external monitor in most situations, needing external power setups, etc.

The S1, and cameras like it, do not have these challenges, and are much more self-contained.  I can pick up my GH5, put in two SD cards, a battery (and a spare one in my pocket), put on a vintage prime lens, and then go out and shoot for an entire day, in the highest quality mode it allows (5K 10-bit 422 or 4K 10-bit 422 ALL-I) and get great footage.

BUT, let's talk about the user experience.  I haven't used a S1 or equivalent, but I'd imagine they have similar features to the GH5.  I have my GH5 setup so that:

• C1 is: 1080p / 200Mbps / ALL-I / HLG 24p, A-mode, with 17.5mm / 42.5mm / 7.5mm as the present IBIS focal lengths
• C2 is: 1080p / 200Mbps / ALL-I / HLG 60p, A-mode, with 17.5mm / 42.5mm / 7.5mm as the present IBIS focal lengths
• C3 is: 1080p / 150Mbps / Long-GOP / Cine-D 120p, A-mode, with 135mm / 200mm / 42.5mm as the present IBIS focal lengths
• C4 is 4K / 150Mbps / Long-GOP / HLG 24p, A-mode, with 17.5mm / 42.5mm / 7.5mm as the present IBIS focal lengths
• C4 is 5K / 200Mbps? / Long-GOP / HLG 24p, M-mode, with 17.5mm / 42.5mm / 7.5mm as the present IBIS focal lengths

I can change the frame rate, bitrate, codec type, and preset IBIS modes in under a second.  I can do that and guarantee I'm not going to forget one and end up with a combination that doesn't make any sense.  I can do that without even looking.  

Yes, I had to read the manual to learn how to do that.  I realise that not everyone has the capacity to do such a thing, so if that's something that you're trying to avoid due to some sort of personal barrier then I sympathise, maybe you can get a friend to assist you with this.  Luckily it only has to be set once and is then saved by the camera.

Taking my comment about the "BM cameras" and reducing it down to one line, when it's obvious you haven't actually considered how these things get used in the field doesn't actually help these conversations, and worse, people who aren't experts and come here looking for help will mistakenly believe that your dismissing one-liners come from a place of wisdom and knowledge, when instead they come from a place of shallow consideration and having multiple opinions that disagree with each other set to random.

[Emanuel]

I didn't write I disagree with all of your convictons : ) One of my disagreements is exactly on such patronize tone about B&W perspective. If you don't buy one of my fav quotes to date and endlessly (The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth. ~ Niels Bohr) it is up to you : )

I just think it's not fair to dictate they're not useful to those rookies you mentioned. Even because you're telling this to someone with lecturing experience at the University and Polytechnic level which professional career began more than two decades ago. And, worse than a wider POV you identify as "dramatic contradictions" is the denial frequently based in misconception when not prejudice or our own beliefs.

It happens to be a "messenger" when for the same line of reasoning you bring up, people like you produce bold statements inducing people to infer all BM cameras are less user-friendly cameras than those you love, have or know. (And as you can check I do more than you now: I didn't add italic to that verb... LOL ; ) BTW your last paragraph is even funny when it's not the first time I ask you to elaborate something and becomes useful precisely to those you direct address there, beyond your earlier assertion. So, "don't pay attention to what I'm doing, only to what I'm saying!" Hilarious :- )

 

Yet on cameras, it's nothing about manuals or friends to assist you : D The way people see a very competitive world outside is... well, I abstain to write it. It is the way those menus distract the operator from the main goal and his/her craft. What do they serve after all? Filmmaking or geeks? KISS concept. If this is empty philosophy, I don't know what it is then anymore :- D

 

Peace mate, don't take it as personal because it is not : ) I do still appreciate to read you and I'm pretty sure I am one of your best readers, I am just not intending to show off anything other than the points I see with merit. Great we can't think everyone for the same head, isn't it? ;- )

[Emanuel]

6 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

KISS concept.

( Five minutes is too short for editing the post, so in one line: )

Both cine-like and video devices can facilitate more or less the process to some extent.

 

Got my endless (as you call it) point now?

[Mark Romero 2]

On 11/1/2021 at 5:13 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

Anyone own both and shot with them side by side? The magenta tint on the S1, lack of grain in HEVC, etc. don't quite do it for me. I'm VERY biased toward the specific colors and texturing coming from Alexa. Even Red is too sharp and clean for me and I want the closest thing that's cheap. Am I just expecting too much at this price point?

I have a lot of thoughts on this... and yet, not really a whole lot to say 🙂

1) Will other people watching really notice the subtle (IMHO) image quality differences? 

I mention this because most of my clients are watching my videos on SD 1080p monitors that probably haven't been calibrated since they left the factory, or on smartphones that, again, haven't been calibrated. And then the client's audience would be watching the videos on everything from desktop / laptop monitors to tablets to phones to TV's.

2) Would the differences in image quality really annoy you?

I admit that certain things REALLY bug me. I used to shoot in Sony 8-bit S-LOG 2 and sometimes I would watch those older videos and say, "Uh... that isn't that bad," until I got to a point where the image was near clipping and the rolloff would annoy the heck out of me (and I remember all the hours I spent keying and trying to desaturate highlights only to see the key fall apart). Anyway, for me, that was a big reason I got an S1 and shoot in V-LOG. 

But I try showing my son (a budding videographer) the difference between nice highlight rolloff and nuclear rolloff and he really can't see a difference. So I guess we have to accept the fact that as videographers / editors / colorists, we are prone to tilting at windmills.

3) Will clients who hire you care about the name brand on the camera?

I've only had one regular client ever say anything, and that was on a stills job, not video, when I showed up with my Sony aps-c a6500, and that was, "Wow, that's the smallest camera I think I have ever seen you use." Previously, I had shown up with my Nikon DSLR's.

But then again, my clients apparently don't care (as noted above where they can't be bothered to own a halfway-decent monitor.) Maybe if my clients were more discerning, they would pay more attention to what I am shooting with.

4) How much does the S1 "system" add or detract from your projected usage?

Are you really sold on using Canon EF glass? Have you looked at Panasonic L-Mount glass? It's expensive, but it is real good. Most of their lenses are sharp wide open and have minimal focus breathing and are parfocal. The primes are designed to take the same filters and are a consistent size so that any focus motors don't need to be adjusted if you are using a focus pull. Plus the size and weight similarities between primes means you should have to re-balance a gimbal if you are switching primes.

There are a lot of conveniences the S1 line of cameras give that the regular 4K and 6K CC's don't give (IBIS, tilting screen, EVF, lots of dedicated function buttons, custom settings memory, an IR filter built in). Plus if you are using L-Mount glass on an S1, you don't have to go through each of your clips and adjust distortion and vignette because the camera already compensates for it. 

For what it is worth...

I have been impressed by all the comparisons I see online between the 6K and an Alexa, but the colors ARE pretty different when people just slap a conversion LUT on to the footage. I think we can say that "The Alexa Look" is 50% camera, and 50% colorist.

 

[kye]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:35 AM, Emanuel said:

I didn't write I disagree with all of your convictons : ) One of my disagreements is exactly on such patronize tone about B&W perspective. If you don't buy one of my fav quotes to date and endlessly (The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth. ~ Niels Bohr) it is up to you : )

I just think it's not fair to dictate they're not useful to those rookies you mentioned. Even because you're telling this to someone with lecturing experience at the University and Polytechnic level which professional career began more than two decades ago. And, worse than a wider POV you identify as "dramatic contradictions" is the denial frequently based in misconception when not prejudice or our own beliefs.

It happens to be a "messenger" when for the same line of reasoning you bring up, people like you produce bold statements inducing people to infer all BM cameras are less user-friendly cameras than those you love, have or know. (And as you can check I do more than you now: I didn't add italic to that verb... LOL ; ) BTW your last paragraph is even funny when it's not the first time I ask you to elaborate something and becomes useful precisely to those you direct address there, beyond your earlier assertion. So, "don't pay attention to what I'm doing, only to what I'm saying!" Hilarious :- )

 

Yet on cameras, it's nothing about manuals or friends to assist you : D The way people see a very competitive world outside is... well, I abstain to write it. It is the way those menus distract the operator from the main goal and his/her craft. What do they serve after all? Filmmaking or geeks? KISS concept. If this is empty philosophy, I don't know what it is then anymore :- D

 

Peace mate, don't take it as personal because it is not : ) I do still appreciate to read you and I'm pretty sure I am one of your best readers, I am just not intending to show off anything other than the points I see with merit. Great we can't think everyone for the same head, isn't it? ;- )

LOL..

You're pulling rank?  Normally when someone does the old "Don't you know who I am" argument it means that talking about the subject isn't working so they try to regain credibility via other channels.

Hilarious!

[Emanuel]

No pal, I don't even feel any lack of sympathy for you. Believe it or not. Especially when you use exactly the same words to send them back, go figure! LOL

I just find rather silly these butting heads between both us for our own sake.

Let's also not underestimate who he's coming here to read anything more valuable written in these pages. Hope both may show some worthy point to extract from, anyway : D

 

You and me deserve more, man, no extra credibility is necessary when there's a line of reasoning I am sure we both have to offer to each other. Sometimes, they're closer than you'd like to. In some other occasions, not so much. Nothing wrong about that. Just when becomes something personal. Not nice to see then, brother. Fortunately, it is not going to happen 100% the way this seems to be.

 

Peace,

- EAG :- )

[kye]

9 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Let's also not underestimate who he's coming here to read anything more valuable written in these pages.

That's why I called you out.

[Emanuel]

No worries, whereas people cannot agree about everything, things are a bit complicated when there's a balance we all pursue, but it's not B&W.

Certain stuff from film world is mandatory like easiness, simplicity based on the control/focus over the triad aperture-shutter-sensitivity rather than anything which can distract the operator from basics such as lighting, framing and perspective, which means angle/POV. If we are distracted with multiple menus, something will lose the attention of the operator.

On the other hand, the gradual automation and miniaturization each day more affordable (let alone the progress to embrace IQ, higher resolution, wider latitude with a softer highlight roll-off as for instance and an obvious impact on the properties of a picture becoming it more prone to be called "cinematic") have gathered a natural resistence from film world, especially when there is a whole work organisation to turn out obsolete in growingly steps towards the simplification of the process.

- EAG

[Mark Romero 2]

If we could go back to the "user-friendly" conversation for a moment...

One of the reasons I went with the S1 instead of the BMPCC 6K (first version, not the Pro, which wasn't out at the time I got my S1), is because the S1 did look a lot more user friendly to me. 

Admittedly, the menu system on the BMPCC 6K seems like it is simplified / streamlined for video shooters. I wish the S1-series of cameras had a way to make a more dedicated video menu that was more like the one on the BMPCC 6K

And most definitely menu diving on the S1 can be a pain.

But the S1 sure has a lot of customizable function buttons. Off the top of my head, I have monitoring LUT, histogram, waveform, zebras, focus peaking, audio levels, and IBIS tied to custom function buttons, while there are already preset buttons for ISO, Exposure compensation and white balance. 

Then there is the quick menu where I have setup for things like Picture profile, frame rates and resolutions, and the file format because certain frame rate / resolution combos are only available in certain file formats / codecs. (I mean, why do I have to change the container format from MOV to MP4 if I want to shoot in 4K 8-bit instead of 4K 10-bit???)

So, personally, I find the S1 to be a really user-friendly camera. I almost never have to do any sort of menu diving (either for video or photography, since you can have separate customizations for both video and photos).

Am I missing something here? 

Most of my shoots are definitely "low-brow" stuff so maybe I just don't know what I am missing???

[HockeyFan12]

Thanks, everyone. These are both impressive cameras so I think it comes down more to use case than what's objectively better for everyone. The P4K seems a little more niche, but it might be my niche. Maybe I'll buy one and try it out.

If I do end up with a P4K what NDs do you recommend? I have had very bad experiences with IR pollution on the 4.6K.