Canon R3 6K raw light with FD lenses

[HockeyFan12]

19 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

It really killed me 😅

Good to hear its gone in newer models. The C300 MK2 can record BRAW with the new 12g assist, pretty compelling option. Too bad the C70 can't do any sort of RAW.

I don't know for sure if it's gone but I think it is. It was an issue in the earliest tests too. You can see the horizontal strip from where the brightest patch is.

The EOS R had a similar issue I remember but they fixed it.

https://www.canonrumors.com/firmware-v1-2-0-seems-to-have-solved-a-banding-issue-that-was-present-in-the-canon-eos-r/

[BenEricson]

15 hours ago, kye said:

The WideDR profile was unusable on the XC10.  Maybe there's some problem with implementing it on lesser cameras (technical, appetite, politics inside Canon, etc).

Not sure. Wide DR on the C300 or C70 is rad. It's basically the neutral profile on a DSLR. It looks good enough to hand off to the client but also saves some data on the top and the bottom of the image. There's no crazy digital sharpness or noise reduction applied. 

That being said, the DGO sensor is only promised to perform better at native ISO. This is documented on the Canon site.

5 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

This wasn't actually noise. In the scene I was using haze and thought it was coming from the window blinds. But it was actually just a pattern from the sensor or maybe some kind of weird reflection?? 

I see what you're saying. I think the C70 would handle this better. The problem is that there's not any more DR in the highlights, so if you're trying to avoid clipping the window, you'll still be stuck with a noisy room unless you add more light. With the Alexa, you might be able to open up another stop or two, not only that the highlights would be so much softer even if they clipped. 

8 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I'm also looking into the C70. I don't need it but no-fuss image, internal NDs and false colors/waveforms are attractive over say the R6 I've been using and the just released R3.

I think any of those cameras can create beautiful images. The C70 or C300 will just be less fuss and you'll probably have more fun operating the camera. 

I feel like I didn't mention this earlier... The battery life on the C70 is absolutely crazy. You can run that camera for around 5/6 hours of continuous recording with just one battery. I think the power draw is one half of the C300 Mkii and one quarter the draw of the C500 Mkii. These are little things that people don't really talk about but make a huge difference.

14 hours ago, kye said:

Great looking images!

Have you tried playing with sharpening on the C70 footage?  I feel like sharpening is a whole skill unto itself, but because all the cameras that YouTubers use are over sharpened, no-one talks about it in those "how-to make your coffee look cinematic" ads tutorials.

I'd suggest working out all the ways your NLE can sharpen (of which there are many) and then pull a few test shots into a timeline and apply every type of sharpening at, say, 10 different strengths, making sure to go higher than what you think looks reasonable.  Then export it to whatever resolution / codec you deliver in and then sit back and from a sensible viewing distance compare it to whatever you think is natural.  

Thanks!

I definitely have. The sharpest images I could get were with the C70 is 4K in a 4K timeline with around 15 percent sharpness. There's just a level of sharpness that a camera like the Komodo can reach that any of the C series cameras in my experience do not reach. 

I'm going to agree with what you've said in the past though... The color grading and handling of the images in post will really determine the final quality. I would say that well shot C70 or C300 footage will be much better than 95 percent of the Komodo tests online. 

That being said, the same DP who did well with the C70 will likely do even better with a Komodo. 

That's just my personal observations. I own the C70. It was a great camera this year. I'm buying the Komodo in December and i'll be using those as my A and B cams for freelance jobs.

[kye]

8 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

This wasn't actually noise. In the scene I was using haze and thought it was coming from the window blinds. But it was actually just a pattern from the sensor or maybe some kind of weird reflection?? 

 

Anamorphic flares - built in!

Suggest it's deliberate, charge the client more, and declare victory!!

2 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Not sure. Wide DR on the C300 or C70 is rad. It's basically the neutral profile on a DSLR. It looks good enough to hand off to the client but also saves some data on the top and the bottom of the image. There's no crazy digital sharpness or noise reduction applied. 

That being said, the DGO sensor is only promised to perform better at native ISO. This is documented on the Canon site.

I see what you're saying. I think the C70 would handle this better. The problem is that there's not any more DR in the highlights, so if you're trying to avoid clipping the window, you'll still be stuck with a noisy room unless you add more light. With the Alexa, you might be able to open up another stop or two, not only that the highlights would be so much softer even if they clipped. 

I think any of those cameras can create beautiful images. The C70 or C300 will just be less fuss and you'll probably have more fun operating the camera. 

I feel like I didn't mention this earlier... The battery life on the C70 is absolutely crazy. You can run that camera for around 5/6 hours of continuous recording with just one battery. I think the power draw is one half of the C300 Mkii and one quarter the draw of the C500 Mkii. These are little things that people don't really talk about but make a huge difference.

Thanks!

I definitely have. The sharpest images I could get were with the C70 is 4K in a 4K timeline with around 15 percent sharpness. There's just a level of sharpness that a camera like the Komodo can reach that any of the C series cameras in my experience do not reach. 

I'm going to agree with what you've said in the past though... The color grading and handling of the images in post will really determine the final quality. I would say that well shot C70 or C300 footage will be much better than 95 percent of the Komodo tests online. 

That being said, the same DP who did well with the C70 will likely do even better with a Komodo. 

That's just my personal observations. I own the C70. It was a great camera this year. I'm buying the Komodo in December and i'll be using those as my A and B cams for freelance jobs.

When I got the XC10 I read about the various colour profiles and WideDR seemed to be the profile with the best reputation so I was excited to use it, especially with the 8-bit codec of the camera, but yeah, it had huge noise problems and wasn't up to it.

Sounds like you're across the saturation situations then.  I think it's one of those things that's really personal, and there's no doubt that RAW has more potential for sharpness than compressed codecs.  Or, at least, for sharpness that doesn't just look like emphasised compression artefacts.  

You're right about the operator being the limiting factor in most camera content that's posted online.  I've been hammering away at this stuff for years now and I know enough to know that I may never know enough to be "better" than my GH5, OG BMPCC or BMMCC - even as long as I live.

Enjoy your Komodo when it arrives 🙂 

[Django]

11 hours ago, kye said:

When I got the XC10 I read about the various colour profiles and WideDR seemed to be the profile with the best reputation so I was excited to use it, especially with the 8-bit codec of the camera, but yeah, it had huge noise problems and wasn't up to it.

I think that has more to do with the XC10 and its 1-inch sensor. WideDR on the C100 worked great with no noise problems and that's also an 8-bit camera

 

13 hours ago, BenEricson said:

I think any of those cameras can create beautiful images. The C70 or C300 will just be less fuss and you'll probably have more fun operating the camera. 

I also use an R6 and yeah the 5.5K oversampled FF 10-bit 422 h265 codec in CLOG3 can achieve excellent results.

Dare I say the IQ might even be slightly better than C70 thanks to the oversampled 4K?

But the DR isn't great and neither is the RS. And then you have battery life and the overheating.

I had an all-day interview recently and was using R6 as B-cam to a C200 and the timers started dropping after about 2.5 hours of shooting. It never actually overheated but I had to pull out battery in between each take. Nightmare situation.

Its because of that I want to replace it ASAP with a C70 for commercial work. 

I'll keep the R6 for establishing shots, gimbal work and photos but never again for any prolonged sit-down situation.

This also excludes the R5, just not worth the stress. I guess the R3 is the only latest-gen Canon hybrid without overheat.

 

13 hours ago, BenEricson said:

I definitely have. The sharpest images I could get were with the C70 is 4K in a 4K timeline with around 15 percent sharpness. There's just a level of sharpness that a camera like the Komodo can reach that any of the C series cameras in my experience do not reach. 

Well the Komodo shoots in 6K and its 4K is oversampled from that so of course it has sharper more detailed resolution.

In tests I've seen the 6K RAW is just phenomenal as far as DR highlight recovery. Best in-class.

Still I'd probably just get the BMPCC 6K Pro because of the ND's and 1/3rd price. It ain't RED though!

[kye]

49 minutes ago, Django said:

I think that has more to do with the XC10 and its 1-inch sensor. WideDR on the C100 worked great with no noise problems and that's also an 8-bit camera

I meant that WideDR seemed like a good choice for an 8-bit codec as it wasn't as flat as C-Log, and would use more of the bits available.

I don't think it was due to the sensor size.  The sensor had great performance at low ISOs in other profiles, but the WideDR profile was hugely noisy, even at its base ISO.  I suspect the profile was designed on other more capable cameras and when they ported it across they would have had to sacrifice compatibility in order to get the most out of it.  

Canon were certainly pushing the compatibility of C-Log on the XC10 when it first came out.  What it meant in practice was that in C-Log the XC10 would clip at lower than 100IRE because that extra headroom was only used by cameras with more DR.  It meant you could configure an XC10 and other Canon camera with the same settings, then put the files from both cameras onto the same timeline and base grade and get the same grade out, without having to adjust levels etc.

In practice it meant that performance was sacrificed for that camera, which sucked considering that it was aimed at low-budget solo shooters trying to quickly record small pieces, not as a C-camera for larger productions.  It's not like anyone shooting with multiple Canon cameras couldn't have put a different LUT or CST on it for heavens sake!

[Django]

I remember testing the XC10. On paper it seemed like an affordable C-line camera but in practice I remember problems with WideDR & CLOG. I dismissed that camera immediately because of that.

Getting back to the C70, a super nice feature is the possibility to import LUTs directly in the CP settings.

So you could bake in CLOG with a tailored LUT.

This alone is a game changer for my workflow. I have this setup as well on my FS7 in Cine EI mode (usually with Venice LUT).

For fast turnaround projects with a specific look in mind this comes clutch.

Again key feature missing from the hybrid R line and the A7S/FX3.

[kye]

7 hours ago, Django said:

I remember testing the XC10. On paper it seemed like an affordable C-line camera but in practice I remember problems with WideDR & CLOG. I dismissed that camera immediately because of that.

Getting back to the C70, a super nice feature is the possibility to import LUTs directly in the CP settings.

So you could bake in CLOG with a tailored LUT.

This alone is a game changer for my workflow. I have this setup as well on my FS7 in Cine EI mode (usually with Venice LUT).

For fast turnaround projects with a specific look in mind this comes clutch.

Again key feature missing from the hybrid R line and the A7S/FX3.

Being able to import view LUTs and bake one in would be spectacular, on any camera.  

I really see the C70 as a Get It Done camera for people who are quietly pumping out projects one after another.

[Video Hummus]

On 11/28/2021 at 7:35 AM, Django said:

I also use an R6 and yeah the 5.5K oversampled FF 10-bit 422 h265 codec in CLOG3 can achieve excellent results.

Dare I say the IQ might even be slightly better than C70 thanks to the oversampled 4K?

But the DR isn't great and neither is the RS. And then you have battery life and the overheating.

I had an all-day interview recently and was using R6 as B-cam to a C200 and the timers started dropping after about 2.5 hours of shooting. It never actually overheated but I had to pull out battery in between each take. Nightmare situation.

Its because of that I want to replace it ASAP with a C70 for commercial work. 

Both the R5 and R6 lack in the DR department but it’s worst on the R6. The 8K oversampling on the R5 helps in the 4K HQ clog3 mode.

Will be interesting to see what the heck the R5C is, if it is even a product anymore.

Worst thing about the $5500 C70 is the build quality and the mediocre flip screen. Everything else is pretty solid. I don’t care much for RAW really, unless from a RED camera. Come to think of it the Komodo AF isn’t terrible…

[Django]

 

9 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Worst thing about the $5500 C70 is the build quality and the mediocre flip screen. Everything else is pretty solid. I don’t care much for RAW really, unless from a RED camera. Come to think of it the Komodo AF isn’t terrible…

What's wrong with its build quality? I mean I'm sure its no RED/ARRI but does it feel any worse than a C100/C200?

All the C70 reviews I've seen say it feels a lot more solid and substantial in hand than let's say a BMPCC6K.

It's all relative to what you compare it to I guess.

R5/R6 feel a bit on the cheap side compared to their DSLR counterparts imo. R3 looks like a major step up in build quality.

[Video Hummus]

11 hours ago, Django said:

 

What's wrong with its build quality? I mean I'm sure its no RED/ARRI but does it feel any worse than a C100/C200?

All the C70 reviews I've seen say it feels a lot more solid and substantial in hand than let's say a BMPCC6K.

It's all relative to what you compare it to I guess.

R5/R6 feel a bit on the cheap side compared to their DSLR counterparts imo. R3 looks like a major step up in build quality.

BMPCC6K is kinda a low bar.

I think it lacks in build quality compared to the other C cameras. The screen hinge is weak and can easily become floppy. The distance pin on top can break easily. Some of the buttons are just sloppy feeling. For $5,500 they can at least fix these things. It's a pro tool it should feel solid and reliable.

 

[TomTheDP]

Z-cams are incredibly robust and quite a bit cheaper. Canon really flaked out. Thats Canon for you though, hard to give my money to them TBH.

Honestly the BMP6K pro is pretty robust feeling. The buttons are nice, the screen feels solid, really nothing that worries me. 

[herein2020]

On 12/1/2021 at 8:38 AM, Django said:

 

What's wrong with its build quality? I mean I'm sure its no RED/ARRI but does it feel any worse than a C100/C200?

All the C70 reviews I've seen say it feels a lot more solid and substantial in hand than let's say a BMPCC6K.

It's all relative to what you compare it to I guess.

R5/R6 feel a bit on the cheap side compared to their DSLR counterparts imo. R3 looks like a major step up in build quality.

 

I have been eyeing the C70 for months, but my two main problems with it are the build quality and no IBIS. I shoot a lot of run and gun events and most of the time I am hired to do both photography and video so I shoot a lot of the video handheld. Going from the S5 which has one of the best IBIS systems you can buy to a C70 with no IBIS is a big problem in my mind. These days I rarely pull out the gimbal or monopod.

Another thing that is important to me is lowlight performance and I am not convinced that it has better lowlight performance than my S5 since the S5 has dual gain ISO and I use ISO 4000 religiously at these events where lighting is usually pretty terrible. My last concern is the reports of poor AF performance; for a $5500 dedicated cinema body I would expect it to perform like the R5's AF.

As far as build quality, I have seen a lot of reports on the sub-par quality and especially the flip screen.  Almost every single C70 long term review talks about the weakness of the flip screen hinge. I currently have the C200 and it is built like a tank; but too big and bulky for most of the work that I do.

I also consider the C70 to be in a weird place between FF and S35. Yes you can get the speedbooster but then you are stuck with EF lenses, if you at some point want to standardize on RF glass you will be back to a S35 sensor, and even with the speedbooster, you still don't get FF lowlight performance or FF DOF.

 

On 11/27/2021 at 6:20 PM, BenEricson said:

I definitely have. The sharpest images I could get were with the C70 is 4K in a 4K timeline with around 15 percent sharpness. There's just a level of sharpness that a camera like the Komodo can reach that any of the C series cameras in my experience do not reach. 

 

I have seen this reported many other places as well; that the image out of the C70 is soft. All of the tests I have seen show that the R5 is sharper and IMO the BM cameras are much sharper. IMO the sharpness or lack thereof wouldn't bother me, only when the footage is placed side by side with a sharper camera and zoomed in is it even noticeable.

On 12/1/2021 at 8:38 AM, Django said:

 

What's wrong with its build quality? I mean I'm sure its no RED/ARRI but does it feel any worse than a C100/C200?

All the C70 reviews I've seen say it feels a lot more solid and substantial in hand than let's say a BMPCC6K.

It's all relative to what you compare it to I guess.

R5/R6 feel a bit on the cheap side compared to their DSLR counterparts imo. R3 looks like a major step up in build quality.

I have build quality concerns about the R5/R6 as well. I tested the R6 and it felt more like Canon Rebel quality and nowhere near my 5DIV's quality. I don't know if Canon is just trying to save weight or maybe they are just as durable as the DSLR versions but they sure don't feel like it in the hand. Even the GH5 and S5 feel better built than the R5/R6.

[Django]

5 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I have been eyeing the C70 for months, but my two main problems with it are the build quality and no IBIS. I shoot a lot of run and gun events and most of the time I am hired to do both photography and video so I shoot a lot of the video handheld. Going from the S5 which has one of the best IBIS systems you can buy to a C70 with no IBIS is a big problem in my mind. These days I rarely pull out the gimbal or monopod.

Another thing that is important to me is lowlight performance and I am not convinced that it has better lowlight performance than my S5 since the S5 has dual gain ISO and I use ISO 4000 religiously at these events where lighting is usually pretty terrible. My last concern is the reports of poor AF performance; for a $5500 dedicated cinema body I would expect it to perform like the R5's AF.

As far as build quality, I have seen a lot of reports on the sub-par quality and especially the flip screen.  Almost every single C70 long term review talks about the weakness of the flip screen hinge. I currently have the C200 and it is built like a tank; but too big and bulky for most of the work that I do.

I also consider the C70 to be in a weird place between FF and S35. Yes you can get the speedbooster but then you are stuck with EF lenses, if you at some point want to standardize on RF glass you will be back to a S35 sensor, and even with the speedbooster, you still don't get FF lowlight performance or FF DOF.

Sounds like the C70 may not be for you. But really you just can't compare it directly to a S5, R5, A7S3 etc. You should compare it to your C200. So yeah no IBIS is pretty standard across all cine cams. 

I think I prefer the Alexa type DGO sensor to a dual-gain ISO sensor. It's not so much about high ISO but the fact that you can pull back so much clean shadow information. Just need to expose to protect highlight. 

About the AF, supposedly the last firmware update improved it substantially. Maybe a C70 user here could confirm?

Finally the RF mount + Speedbooster, I think is the main appeal of the camera! You're stuck on EF glass in S35 with C100/C200/C300/BMPCC6K. Here you get FF FoV + extra stop on your EF lenses so lowlight is actually improved. You can also use adapters so RF mount all the way.

5 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I have seen this reported many other places as well; that the image out of the C70 is soft. All of the tests I have seen show that the R5 is sharper and IMO the BM cameras are much sharper. IMO the sharpness or lack thereof wouldn't bother me, only when the footage is placed side by side with a sharper camera and zoomed in is it even noticeable.

The R5 downsamples from 8K. BMPCC 6K. Of course they're going to be sharper.

That said, C70 seems sharper than the very soft 4K coming from C200/C300.

[herein2020]

12 minutes ago, Django said:

Sounds like the C70 may not be for you. But really you just can't compare it directly to a S5, R5, A7S3 etc. You should compare it to your C200. So yeah no IBIS is pretty standard across all cine cams. 

I think I prefer the Alexa type DGO sensor to a dual-gain ISO sensor. It's not so much about high ISO but the fact that you can pull back so much clean shadow information. Just need to expose to protect highlight. 

About the AF, supposedly the last firmware update improved it substantially. Maybe a C70 user here could confirm?

Finally the RF mount + Speedbooster, I think is the main appeal of the camera! You're stuck on EF glass in S35 with C100/C200/C300/BMPCC6K. Here you get FF FoV + extra stop on your EF lenses so lowlight is actually improved. You can also use adapters so RF mount all the way.

The R5 downsamples from 8K. BMPCC 6K. Of course they're going to be sharper.

That said, C70 seems sharper than the very soft 4K coming from C200/C300.

I love the idea of the C70, in fact I pre-ordered it when pre-orders were available, but then the S5 was announced, and I cancelled my pre-order.  Who wouldn't love ND filters and XLR inputs in a gimbal friendly format? Not to mention the C300's sensor. 

I am pretty fed up with no CAF with the S5 so I started considering the C70 again. The lack of IBIS is the biggest show stopper for me. I know no other C camera has it but they also aren't really meant to be handheld like a DSLR. 

I still don't like the speedbooster approach, if I were to get an RF mount camera I would want to be able to at some point go 100% RF mount but that would turn the C70 into a S35 and it would lose that light advantage. So yes, overall the C70 is not for me but it came so close it is disappointing that it didn't go the rest of the way. 

I'm guessing in 2022 a C90 FF camera will be released with an RF mount or maybe they will wait a yr after releasing the R5c which on paper could be the perfect camera until the Canon cripple hammer strikes again.  The R5c probably won't have XLR inputs or ND filters.

[Video Hummus]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

I love the idea of the C70, in fact I pre-ordered it when pre-orders were available, but then the S5 was announced, and I cancelled my pre-order.  Who wouldn't love ND filters and XLR inputs in a gimbal friendly format? Not to mention the C300's sensor. 

I am pretty fed up with no CAF with the S5 so I started considering the C70 again. The lack of IBIS is the biggest show stopper for me. I know no other C camera has it but they also aren't really meant to be handheld like a DSLR. 

I still don't like the speedbooster approach, if I were to get an RF mount camera I would want to be able to at some point go 100% RF mount but that would turn the C70 into a S35 and it would lose that light advantage. So yes, overall the C70 is not for me but it came so close it is disappointing that it didn't go the rest of the way. 

I'm guessing in 2022 a C90 FF camera will be released with an RF mount or maybe they will wait a yr after releasing the R5c which on paper could be the perfect camera until the Canon cripple hammer strikes again.  The R5c probably won't have XLR inputs or ND filters.

I'm saving for a C70 to replace a R6 mostly for the internal NDs and video exposure tools. I have no desire to buy EF glass when RF is here and can share with my R5. So I would be running a C70 with RF glass and a S35 sensor. Good thing is many of the RF glass has IS built-in which helps with the lack of IBIS in the C70. I'm thinking with RF IS lenses and EIS when needed that will be enough for my needs.

Perhaps a C90 will come with C70 body and FF sensor. If the R5C has the same sensor as the R5 it is a hard pass for me. I already have a R5 and I would prefer better video DR performance on par or better than C70 can offer.

It's pretty clear we probably won't get much better hybrid cameras from Canon. C70 is kinda in-between and initial I didn't like it but it has grown on me after renting one for a week. I hope Canon refines this form factor more and adds capabilities and performance. I enjoyed just exposing in the middle and the DGO sensor really kept detail and shadow noise down.

[herein2020]

7 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I'm saving for a C70 to replace a R6 mostly for the internal NDs and video exposure tools. I have no desire to buy EF glass when RF is here and can share with my R5. So I would be running a C70 with RF glass and a S35 sensor. Good thing is many of the RF glass has IS built-in which helps with the lack of IBIS in the C70. I'm thinking with RF IS lenses and EIS when needed that will be enough for my needs.

Perhaps a C90 will come with C70 body and FF sensor. If the R5C has the same sensor as the R5 it is a hard pass for me. I already have a R5 and I would prefer better video DR performance on par or better than C70 can offer.

It's pretty clear we probably won't get much better hybrid cameras from Canon. C70 is kinda in-between and initial I didn't like it but it has grown on me after renting one for a week. I hope Canon refines this form factor more and adds capabilities and performance. I enjoyed just exposing in the middle and the DGO sensor really kept detail and shadow noise down.

I have been thinking about renting it as well just to make sure it isn't for me. I have really studied the handheld footage from the C70 on YouTube and it always seems to have this jittery look no matter what they did; even basic standing still panning and tilting movements seemed to have this slight jitter that just isn't present in cameras with IBIS. Maybe they just have bad hand holding technique but I can't be sure.  For me, running back and fourth between photography and video systems at events, there's no way I have time for a gimbal let alone a tripod so handheld performance is key for me to replace the S5.

On a gimbal, tripod, monopod, etc. of course it looks fine, and of course slow motion footage looks fine, but that jittery look really bothers me. Maybe I am just looking too hard for it, but lack of IBIS is really my main show stopper.  Maybe if I rent it and try it for myself I'll see that I've been overthinking it.

I did consider the R3 when it was announced, but a lot of the price comes from making the sensor readout so fast and since I don't shoot sports or fast action, I would be paying a premium for a camera that is still lacking WFM, False Color, ND filters, needs a separate XLR adapter, etc. Canon continues to excel at ensuring their market segmentation stays in place and their cripple hammer never rests.