RAW Video on a Smartphone

[Ingerson]

17 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It would also be good if the dev could enable RAW on the secondary cam modules.

Would love to see the 5x periscope on P40 Pro spring into life.

Would be like having a S16mm turret again.

SO only the main camera works? Is that just your phone or a general thing?

[Emanuel]

5 minutes ago, Ingerson said:

SO only the main camera works? Is that just your phone or a general thing?

On this model specifically... : ) If you'll pay attention to a post of mine in the previous page, you'll find a couple of print screens with the main camera and the wide angle one. On this OnePlus 9 Pro I can assure you the tele also works.

[Andrew Reid]

My mistake, I missed it. All 3 modules work including the 5x optical and all in 4K, albeit with very slightly different aspect ratios

[Emanuel]

Good news : )

 

Redmi Note 7 with Snapdragon 660, Octa-core Max 2.20GHz coupled to 4GB: both rear cameras handle easily 2K/1080p 24 or 30 fps and the main one 3K, go figure... or even 3.5K is reached if you don't mind to drop to about 20fps. And half frame rate for the maximum resolution over 4K, as for the instance the selfie camera to reach 4224 pixels wide.

Overcharging the autofocus feature will stress the memory you can monitor, though, very useful tool you don't have playing with the big boys ; )

Cropping to 2.39 format will definitely help. And clean the cache before each take.

 

But, Redmi Note 9, Octa-core Max 2.00GHz with 3GB Quad-cam don't. Only one camera. Not exceeding half frame rate (30 -> 15 / 20 -> 10, no 24/25 on the App) with or without the memory fully loaded, independently of the resolution. I guess because of the MediaTek Helio G85 chip so I'd rather to only check a Snapdragon pick.

I will still test the ASUS Zenfone 7 Pro I also keep but I don't expect any trouble as much as happens with the OnePlus 9 where even the 4th one, luma is working as well.

 

Which means every case is one case, obviously :- )

[Emanuel]

*I'd rather only check

[Emanuel]

Early 2022. It's already here the latest build for real : D hybrid shooters:

https://github.com/mirsadm/motioncam/releases

 

- Aperture switching on phones with variable aperture;

- Black and white level clipping indicator;

- Improved contrast curve in photo mode.

 

No other product in the history of filmmaking has been so developed and improved ever!

Practically in a daily basis!

[Alpicat]

I bought a 2nd hand Oneplus 8 Pro (Android phone from 2020) to try shooting raw video with the motioncam app - the app is pretty stable overall with that phone. Below is a quick video I shot yesterday with it on the Emirates Air Line cable car in London. Worth watching on a large screen and set the video to 5K.

The phone has 3 lenses (ultrawide, wide, 3x tele). They all work fine at 4k up to 60fps (limited record time at that frame rate). This video was shot at a resolution of 4000x3000 (full sensor area) at 24fps using the RAW10 mode (which I guess means 10 bit raw?). The data rate is about 12.5gb per minute of footage. I exported it as cDNG uncompressed raw files, and edited it in Davinci Resolve.

The individual DNG photos from the video look very nice with lots of details. It's incredible what these phone sensors are capable of without any processing.

The rolling shutter is a bit of an issue - but I was on a cable car which was moving around quite a bit. I stabilised the footage in Resolve but that occasionally introduces some wobble in the image. The shutter speed was high on this as I didn't use an ND filter. 

I later found out you can record video straight to an external Samsung T5 SSD drive, which makes things much quicker since you can completely bypass the phone's internal memory. 

I made the music in the video on a Sequential Prophet 12 synthesizer.

 

[mercer]

14 minutes ago, Alpicat said:

I bought a 2nd hand Oneplus 8 Pro (Android phone from 2020) to try shooting raw video with the motioncam app - the app is pretty stable overall with that phone. Below is a quick video I shot yesterday with it on the Emirates Air Line cable car in London. Worth watching on a large screen and set the video to 5K.

The phone has 3 lenses (ultrawide, wide, 3x tele). They all work fine at 4k up to 60fps (limited record time at that frame rate). This video was shot at a resolution of 4000x3000 (full sensor area) at 24fps using the RAW10 mode (which I guess means 10 bit raw?). The data rate is about 12.5gb per minute of footage. I exported it as cDNG uncompressed raw files, and edited it in Davinci Resolve.

The individual DNG photos from the video look very nice with lots of details. It's incredible what these phone sensors are capable of without any processing.

The rolling shutter is a bit of an issue - but I was on a cable car which was moving around quite a bit. I stabilised the footage in Resolve but that occasionally introduces some wobble in the image. The shutter speed was high on this as I didn't use an ND filter. 

I later found out you can record video straight to an external Samsung T5 SSD drive, which makes things much quicker since you can completely bypass the phone's internal memory. 

I made the music in the video on a Sequential Prophet 12 synthesizer.

 

This looks great!

[SRV1981]

On 1/15/2022 at 11:27 AM, PannySVHS said:

Great advice! Thanks, Andrew! Some of the newer footage looks indeed like from a BMPCC in 4K. Possibly, from what I read, other budget options could be LG G8s and LGv50. I am wondering if the android driven MFT camera would do- the Yongnuo YN455. It has a Snapdragon 660 in it. So, don´t know if that would work or not.

 

This is a very pleasing image!  Do you guys feel that at some point phones manufacturers will meet or ecplise camera companies in image or will they (like Apple) start making cameras?

[kye]

15 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

This is a very pleasing image!  Do you guys feel that at some point phones manufacturers will meet or ecplise camera companies in image or will they (like Apple) start making cameras?

You will get all sorts of answers to this question, but fundamentally, the physics of the way that cameras work means that larger sensor cameras will always be better.

Smartphone cameras can (and do) look great in the right circumstances, matching larger cameras.  But when you start trying to use these tiny cameras in anything other than the ideal circumstances then they either can't do something (eg, optically shallow DoF, lens choice) or they do it very poorly (eg, low light video).

[SRV1981]

8 hours ago, kye said:

You will get all sorts of answers to this question, but fundamentally, the physics of the way that cameras work means that larger sensor cameras will always be better.

Smartphone cameras can (and do) look great in the right circumstances, matching larger cameras.  But when you start trying to use these tiny cameras in anything other than the ideal circumstances then they either can't do something (eg, optically shallow DoF, lens choice) or they do it very poorly (eg, low light video).

That's very well said and true.  I guess another consideration is the purpose and intent of filming - if it's production level/paid then sure raw codecs from a camera probably aren't the way to go.  But for the enthusiast/prosumer folks or even for pros on vacation etc., will we get to a point that traveling with a hybrid like an XT4/X100V etc. are not worth the cost of size and ease of a cellphone when you're outputting to YouTube and sharing on social media?  

[webrunner5]

10 hours ago, kye said:

You will get all sorts of answers to this question, but fundamentally, the physics of the way that cameras work means that larger sensor cameras will always be better.

 

I think AI and computational math are sort of changing our idea of Physics. Smartphones are punching way above their size in this day and age.  If they get really good zoom lenses to work on smartphones I think it might really even the playing field. To me that is the limitation as of now. Sure, it can apply to a FF camera also but I bet the gains would be less.

[kye]

16 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

That's very well said and true.  I guess another consideration is the purpose and intent of filming - if it's production level/paid then sure raw codecs from a camera probably aren't the way to go.  But for the enthusiast/prosumer folks or even for pros on vacation etc., will we get to a point that traveling with a hybrid like an XT4/X100V etc. are not worth the cost of size and ease of a cellphone when you're outputting to YouTube and sharing on social media?  

You're trying to simplify an equation well beyond the point that it creases to be useful.

Imagine we were talking about a Toyota Corolla.  If I said "will we get to a point that DRIVING with a 4WD like an SUV are not worth the cost of size and ease of a COROLLA when you're DRIVING" then it would be a stupid statement because driving isn't one thing.  Neither is "outputting to YouTube and sharing on social media".

Remember what I said in the other thread about cameras being a combination of dozens of different factors?  One you actually start making your own work you will begin to see what things matter / which things matter less / and which things don't matter at all to you.  Then you will realise that what matters to you is different than what matters to other people.  and I mean, IS RADICALLY DIFFERENT.  It's the source of most arguments online about gear actually - people not understanding that other people are not similar to them.

I suggest making more work and trying to talk about equipment less.

14 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I think AI and computational math are sort of changing our idea of Physics. Smartphones are punching way above their size in this day and age.  If they get really good zoom lenses to work on smartphones I think it might really even the playing field. To me that is the limitation as of now. Sure, it can apply to a FF camera also but I bet the gains would be less.

Smartphone cameras are still in the honeymoon phase.

People are concentrating on what they can do vs what they can't do.  The difference is still so woeful that proper comparisons aren't even being made yet.

[SRV1981]

3 hours ago, kye said:

You're trying to simplify an equation well beyond the point that it creases to be useful.

Imagine we were talking about a Toyota Corolla.  If I said "will we get to a point that DRIVING with a 4WD like an SUV are not worth the cost of size and ease of a COROLLA when you're DRIVING" then it would be a stupid statement because driving isn't one thing.  Neither is "outputting to YouTube and sharing on social media".

Remember what I said in the other thread about cameras being a combination of dozens of different factors?  One you actually start making your own work you will begin to see what things matter / which things matter less / and which things don't matter at all to you.  Then you will realise that what matters to you is different than what matters to other people.  and I mean, IS RADICALLY DIFFERENT.  It's the source of most arguments online about gear actually - people not understanding that other people are not similar to them.

I suggest making more work and trying to talk about equipment less.

Smartphone cameras are still in the honeymoon phase.

People are concentrating on what they can do vs what they can't do.  The difference is still so woeful that proper comparisons aren't even being made yet.

I’m really saying that each tool has its place.  Cell phones have limitations and won’t be an A cam on a budgeted set but for YT? Why not? Most consumers/viewers probably wouldn’t notice or care if their YT channel shot with an iPhone 13 Pro or an Alexa MINI. That’s just my understanding when talking to friends who aren’t into videography or photography. 

[webrunner5]

9 hours ago, kye said:

You're trying to simplify an equation well beyond the point that it creases to be useful.

Imagine we were talking about a Toyota Corolla.  If I said "will we get to a point that DRIVING with a 4WD like an SUV are not worth the cost of size and ease of a COROLLA when you're DRIVING" then it would be a stupid statement because driving isn't one thing.  Neither is "outputting to YouTube and sharing on social media".

Remember what I said in the other thread about cameras being a combination of dozens of different factors?  One you actually start making your own work you will begin to see what things matter / which things matter less / and which things don't matter at all to you.  Then you will realise that what matters to you is different than what matters to other people.  and I mean, IS RADICALLY DIFFERENT.  It's the source of most arguments online about gear actually - people not understanding that other people are not similar to them.

I suggest making more work and trying to talk about equipment less.

Smartphone cameras are still in the honeymoon phase.

People are concentrating on what they can do vs what they can't do.  The difference is still so woeful that proper comparisons aren't even being made yet.

I think you are ass backwards. Normal cameras are in the dark ages and Smartphones are far into the future compared to a normal camera. Hell you can buy a 10 year old Canon and can't tell it from a new one. 

I bet your wife gets overall better footage and quicker with her cell phone than you do with your GH5. If spending 2 hours in a NLE is worth it to you versus her having it in an instant well don't know what to tell you. This is 2022 not 2012. All the newest phones have moved the needle way up.

If you are comparing the Phones to a Red Komodo well sure, to a GH5 come on. That is not some amazing camera output wise.

[Andrew Reid]

The paid version of the app is now out for £12.99 on PlayStore.

It is really worth it.

Here is the result. So good it gives Blackmagic pause for thought.

Download original Cinema DNG frame on me:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hi-MaSjA8tC_5zOmp1yXk09xV6XZg-_s/view?usp=sharing

Stuff I like:

Can select all manner of quirky frame rates and see if they work. 120p was an option on my Mi 11 Ultra! 24p was officially supported but 25p was in the list of quirky unsupported frame rates. Hopefully it will work along with 50p and 60p as well.

Total sensor output is 4080 x 3072

As you can see this is open gate 4:3!

The app controls to crop width and height are really handy. Reduces file size too. Above frame was with 44% vertical crop to give me close to 2.35:1 cinemascope style, and results in 7MB/frame.

There is option for compressed RAW and multi-frame noise reduction plus in-camera playback and clip management.

The RAW containers can be converted in-app to Cinema DNG format or even MP4!

Noise grain and detail absolutely tip top.

[FHDcrew]

Little life hack for iOS users.  Buy the Moment camera app and use it’s DNG “burst” mode. I don’t have an exact framerate analyzed yet but it’s somewhere around 12fps. Then use optical flow to fill in the missing frames to make it 24fps. Use RIFE or DAIN, state of the art AI-based frame interpolation, and the results are quite decent as long as there isn’t too much fast motion. This workflow gives a raw, DNG workflow for iOS users. Recording time, given enough free space, is unlimited, except that you get periodical dropped frames after a certain pint, maybe every 10 seconds if I guess. Clears up quick though. All camera modules work; recording is full-res and open gate. Haven’t checked but rate yet, but you can bring the DNG sequence into resolve, select linear as the color space in the raw settings, and then use a CST node to bring it into a log space like Arri log C. 
 

 

[kye]

21 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

I’m really saying that each tool has its place.  Cell phones have limitations and won’t be an A cam on a budgeted set but for YT? Why not? Most consumers/viewers probably wouldn’t notice or care if their YT channel shot with an iPhone 13 Pro or an Alexa MINI. That’s just my understanding when talking to friends who aren’t into videography or photography. 

YT isn't one thing.

It goes all the way from zero planning or budget to individual episodes that take literally months or years to make.

YT is exactly the same as Netflix or Prime or any other VOD website, it just has a different revenue model (advertising not exclusively membership).  The biggest YT channels have a higher budget than almost all larger budget TV shows.

The same people that watch Netflix and Prime watch YT - why would their preferences change?  They don't take their eyeballs out when they change browser tabs.

15 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I think you are ass backwards. Normal cameras are in the dark ages and Smartphones are far into the future compared to a normal camera. Hell you can buy a 10 year old Canon and can't tell it from a new one. 

I bet your wife gets overall better footage and quicker with her cell phone than you do with your GH5. If spending 2 hours in a NLE is worth it to you versus her having it in an instant well don't know what to tell you. This is 2022 not 2012. All the newest phones have moved the needle way up.

If you are comparing the Phones to a Red Komodo well sure, to a GH5 come on. That is not some amazing camera output wise.

I'm talking about image quality.

I put a fast prime on my GH5 and go shoot at night and get perfectly usable shots when an iPhone can't even acquire focus - this is an actual example.  

People who love FF talk about it having a more graceful transition to the out-of-focus areas.  The out-of-focus areas on a smartphone look like they've been drawn onto the video with the blur tool by a toddler.  There is literally no comparison.  I own a camera because of its image quality, not because it can check the stock market prices.

[SRV1981]

1 hour ago, kye said:

YT isn't one thing.

It goes all the way from zero planning or budget to individual episodes that take literally months or years to make.

YT is exactly the same as Netflix or Prime or any other VOD website, it just has a different revenue model (advertising not exclusively membership).  The biggest YT channels have a higher budget than almost all larger budget TV shows.

The same people that watch Netflix and Prime watch YT - why would their preferences change?  They don't take their eyeballs out when they change browser tabs.

I'm talking about image quality.

I put a fast prime on my GH5 and go shoot at night and get perfectly usable shots when an iPhone can't even acquire focus - this is an actual example.  

People who love FF talk about it having a more graceful transition to the out-of-focus areas.  The out-of-focus areas on a smartphone look like they've been drawn onto the video with the blur tool by a toddler.  There is literally no comparison.  I own a camera because of its image quality, not because it can check the stock market prices.

I am skeptical about that claim but open. Do you have a reference? I’d did a quick check:

#1 MrBeast - 1DX mk2

#2 Jake Paul - a7s ii

#3 Markiplier - a7 iii

#4 Rhett and Link - maybe a6500 couldn’t find definitive 

#5 Unspeakable - newer Sony lines 

Other popular ones I could find are canon 70D, GoPro Hero 5 etc. 

Jenelle Elliana has over 2 million subscribers and uses her iPhone to film. 

I think that’s the point - people are making content watched by millions and making millions using low budget setups  

 

[FHDcrew]

9 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

Little life hack for iOS users.  Buy the Moment camera app and use it’s DNG “burst” mode. I don’t have an exact framerate analyzed yet but it’s somewhere around 12fps. Then use optical flow to fill in the missing frames to make it 24fps. Use RIFE or DAIN, state of the art AI-based frame interpolation, and the results are quite decent as long as there isn’t too much fast motion. This workflow gives a raw, DNG workflow for iOS users. Recording time, given enough free space, is unlimited, except that you get periodical dropped frames after a certain pint, maybe every 10 seconds if I guess. Clears up quick though. All camera modules work; recording is full-res and open gate. Haven’t checked but rate yet, but you can bring the DNG sequence into resolve, select linear as the color space in the raw settings, and then use a CST node to bring it into a log space like Arri log C. 
 

 

I meant to say I haven’t tried color depth yet. Don’t know if it’s 10 but, 12 bit, etc. I do know I get a video sequence with all hints of overprocessing gone. Very nice. I’ve mainly played with the iPhone 13 ultrawide and front facing camera. Dynamic range didn’t seem that great on the ultrawide. I expect the primary camera to perform better due to the larger sensor.