Varicam LT or use your BMMCC you dummie? Two topics in one? Anyone?

[PannySVHS]

Hallo dear friends,

in these rough times we all are happy to enjoy calm and joyful moments of comfort and peace of mind. The silly camera game belongs in that category of escaping the harsh reality once in a while. Even if we don´t own, rent nor use cameras a lot, we still like to fancy and, well, debate them.

I am myself guilty of owning a Sony PMW F3 and having not used it other than two lazy blinks out of my window. For one and a half year, nothing, still nothing filmed yet! I bought a BMMCC a couple weeks ago and have only shot some test footage once. Owning two FS700, having used one of them (or was it the other:) only twice in two years! My Shogun Flame is still waiting for its cage, because I dont wanna spend the money. It´s still being unused as a recorder and as monitor. My S1 has performed a bit but not much. Lenses are an even worse story! Isco 16 2x unused, Tevidon lenses ununsed, Vivitar 90mm F2.5, Tokina 28-70 2.6 and so on!

And still I am asking myself about the Varicam LT, because of its rep as a "real" camera. I am fascinated by both, the underdog and affordable cameras and the notion of a real cinema camera like Alexa, Red cameras, Sony Cinealtas and Varicams.

So what do you think? Is the Varicam LT giving me so much more imagewise than a S1? What does it have over URSA Broadcast G2 or Mini Pro G1? Why do I fancy owning one, when not having used my other cameras for real? Two topics in one.:) cheers

[HockeyFan12]

I've only used the Varicam LT (or 35, I forget) in post but the image is really nice. There's a lot less skew and imo significantly better color than the S1 if I remember right and a better texture to the ProRes files too. It also has a bit more highlight dynamic range, it's really good and has a really good image. Back in the day when it was between that and the F55 for 4K for Netflix or whatever – I preferred the image from the Varicam LT. 

However the color is not similar to Alexa, it's kind of more its own thing, punchier and more vibrant. Also the skin tones tend more magenta (same issue I have with the S1 I suppose), which can be unflattering on pale caucasian skin. Lately imo Sony has caught up – never used an A7S3 but worked a bit with Venice footage and it's fantastic.

I do think the Varicam's image is better than the S1 – the EVA1 occupies a middle ground for me (I prefer the EVA1 color and noise texture to the S1 and S1H for sure) and I have had mixed experience with Black Magic cameras in terms of reliability and IR pollution and moire etc. Great images for the money but less robust in some respects.

All of these differences in image quality pale in comparison with ergonomic and workflow differences, which sadly imo probably matter much more. I bought too much and am selling stuff soon. I'm hoping I use more if I own less.

[PannySVHS]

Thanks you, great points! Ergo would be top on my list. Still not using my F3 beause I am shying away from spending money for an EVF. Akward, and the epitome of camera GAS. Buying the camera and not being willing to build and rig a system.

I find my S1 harder to grade than GH5 material. I considered myself a person with decent color grading skills. But it took me a few hours to get the hang out of the S1. I had bad experience with IR poluted BM Mini Pro footage. It felt like grading 420 bit from a 5D2 to me! Hard to imagine but true.

I don´t see many comparisons with the Lumix cams and EVA. From what I saw, the Varicam holds onto colours better under a variety of shooting conditions than the EVA. EVA coming close ore even equalling the image from the Varicam under normal lighting conditions, Lumix cameras having a different signature still. S1 potentially coming close with adequate grading. Varicam should trump with its thick codec for heavy grading. @kye Though the 150mbit codec of the S1 is not easy to break, just like the one from the GH5. Kye couldnt break the GH5 10bit Intercodec, which is a good thing of course:) But I imagine color response and tonality would offer more to the eye with the Varicam.

 

[ntblowz]

Speaking of holding colour better at mixed lighting, I found that is true with c300iii than r5. In a recent music video shoot full of rgb light, my r5 looks like purplish while c300 iii look really blue on a blue lighted wall with a top panel light on tungsten colour. I think the r5 sensor got polluted by that top panel light but c300 iii holds on.

[HockeyFan12]

I think I prefer the GH5 colors too, but I like the S1's highlight detail. I saw these comparisons, which I think are interesting:

Since the "color science" target is presumably set, I think this comparison reveals that the sensors themselves must be quite different. The P4K and P6K I think have somewhat different color, too, which is interesting.

In general the Alexa has a very green/warm bias and imo other cameras less so. The EVA1 feels a little greener and warmer than the S1, so that might be why I prefer its color rendering. More Alexa-like. The 150Mbps S1 codec is fine I think but the ALL-I EVA1 codec has a nice noise texture and a bit more noise, more organic.

I had to deal with IR pollution and moire with the 4.6K and decided to stay away but the P4K and P6K have images that really impress me for the money. But I suspect you need to figure out the right NDs to use (Hoya Solas I bet) with them etc.

I was ready to move to a P4K and speedbooster and sell everything else – I thought the less I owned the more I'd use it. But the S1 is so easy to use and the image is fine if not great that I think I'll stick with that for work and a "b cam." I own some higher end gear for personal use primarily. I rarely shoot professionally anymore or I'd probably own something else.

[PannySVHS]

Wow, second video with the model is an akward test design and kinda untelling test conditions. All cameras looked bad btw in that test.:)

I like the image to price ratio of the BM4K. Friends of mine love it and produce great colours with it. S1 really shines in lowlight, giving awesome colours and quality. Equalling or bettering possibly Alexa and Varicam. Gives you back the image noise, when you film under super low light:)

Also a contender would be a Sony FX6, giving fantastic lowlight, NDs and all that. It does not produce mush in lowlight, which is great. FX3 and A7s3 get mushy with higher ISO in super lowlight. Somehow I have a fascination for Varicam as the ultimate camera in Panasonics offerings. The sensor has definately a different response to colours as test number 1 shows.

[kye]

This thread started with a question - buy a Varicam or use your BMMCC.  @PannySVHS - that one is easy...  just use your BMMCC.

Then you elaborate about all the lovely equipment you have that sits unused, which (I think) negates the original question, and proposes a new one.  By saying you own lots of gear, don't use it, and still want more, you're saying that you attribute some value to simply owning equipment, even if you don't use it.

This means you are also a collector, rather than exclusively a cinematographer.  This is a very different mindset, and it's a different kind of value.  While one person thinks that owning every piece of tableware from some brand is a worthwhile goal, the next person thinks of it as tacky and a waste of time and money.  The value is in the eye of the beholder and only you can answer the Varicam question for yourself.

Your question mixes the two however.  It seems you derive value from buying equipment that performs well, even if you don't use it, so that's also something for you to evaluate.

In terms of my thoughts about camera stuff:

• Almost any camera can look great, but the better the camera and the better the cinematographer, the easier it is to get it looking great
• The worse the camera the less latitude it will give you in the grade...  bad cameras won't have enough latitude in the image to even point them at anything difficult, good cameras will have enough latitude to point them at difficult scenes or to point them at normal scenes and have a bit of wiggle room, and great cameras give you lots of room to move even in difficult situations
• @TomTheDP was kind enough to share some S1 files with me and I felt like they had more latitude than the GH5 files, but ultimately they felt the same nearing their limits, and in shots that were quite underexposed I felt like I was arguing with strange colour casts and noise and compression problems in the footage in the same way as I would with underexposed GH5 footage, so the flavour is the same.
• The S1 and GH5 files I've graded feel awkward and deformed in comparison to grading RAW or Prores from the OG BMPCC or BMMCC, which respond exactly the way you'd expect them to.  It's hard to explain but it feels like you've got some setting horribly wrong in Resolve when you work with GH5 or S1 files by comparison.  I haven't dealt with BM footage shot as poorly as the GH5/S1 footage I've worked with, but even when both brands are shot well, the BM ones feel fundamentally better

TLDR; understand what you're actually trying to achieve, then work out the best way to get there.

[PannySVHS]

@kye

Exactely, to the point! I love the image quality from the BMMCC the best. I enjoy the promise of the F3 which is still untested. I dont consider my kitchen window a test of image quality.:) I think I enjoy the thought of possibility of testing and using all this gear and the thrill to buy them for cheap. Maybe we could start a thread with the best cam deals we made the last couple years.

BMMCC will be for my mini anamorphic set up and lushiest colors. F3 for the hunt for the magic underdog camera, the baby Alexa. FS700 for the ease of use and external Prores 4K60p with a speedbooster. In the end it is easy to gather gear over the years like i have in the last two and half years. So I asked the two questions in one topic. I think it makes sense to talk and write about the oddities and akward habbits of cinematography lovers and camera dreamers. I filmed two shorts this year, 7days all together, first one with the GH5 only, second one mixing a rented A-Cam C300II with a rented GH5 as B-Cam and my S1 as specialty Cam. With own equipment I always realize, I am missing rigging parts, reliable battery solutions, monitoring, etc. Why holding on to equpment which I am not using? Hard to tell. But that is why I imply in the title of the thread what I am, a dummie.

The Varicam question stands in relation to that but also for itself in relation to image qualiity and all the other important attributes. In the end I hope to have shared some questions of interest. The answers from you guys already were very satisfying and profound.

BMMCC and C300II grade the easiest from my experience. For the GH5 I have serveral Power grades in Resolve which work well for me. But S1 only really excells to me in lit sets or under low light conditions. I have not recognized any artefacts from the S1! GH5 though turns super mushy in super lowlight. I find the S1 harder to grade under natural lighting condtions than the GH5.

So the prospect of a Varicam would be, dynamic range and color response like my BMMCC, lowlight exellence and all the goodies of ergos and rigging, if bougth in a complete set. To buy a Varicam has only become a vague option to me, because I found a rigged out package, which is ready to film, with viewfinder, handles, shoulder pad and so. The price was very low for what this camera is. But seller raised the price again. So it´s out of my reach.

 

 

 

[kye]

I had a friend who loved engineering and the possibility of things...  he'd always be talking about the "potential" of things.

I am the opposite, I want potential that is realised.

Partly by design, and partly by coincidence, all my cameras have been bought through necessity - the necessity of getting the results I wanted in the conditions that I shoot in.

My first camera was a disposable film camera I bought on a trip once, and when some friends asked for copies of several of the shots, I realised I wasn't completely terrible at it.  

My second camera was a $100 P&S digital camera I bought for my first overseas trip.  I knew I would take a lot of photos and so bought that as it would be cheaper than disposable film cameras.  ie, the upgrade was based on the situation and previous results.
I took lots of great photos with that, and after taking about 30,000 stills all up before I switched to video, a few from it are still in my top 40.  But it didn't go wide enough for WOW shots, and sucked in low light.  I realised I needed to learn how to stitch images together for the wides, but for low-light I needed a fast lens.

My third camera was the GF3, which shot RAW and came with the kit lens and the 14mm f2.5 which helped greatly in low light, and was *just* pocketable.  I took it through Europe and the US and Dubai and on full-auto took some spectacular shots, but the colours just didn't pop the way that full-frame cameras do.  

My fourth camera was going to be a Nikon APSC camera, but ended up being the Canon 700D because my dad had a previous model and gifted me the two kit lenses which he no longer used.  This camera was great to use and took wonderful pictures that had the nice canon colours and was much closer to the creaminess of the FF cameras I was chasing.  

Then came video.  Video from the 700D was spectacularly soft, which I realised was not due to the sensor or lenses, and so I learned about scaling and compression and bitrates.
Being a well-read stills photographer, I knew two things - you needed Canon colours, and you needed images to be SHARP.  They had to CUT YOUR EYES.  So, image stabilisation, 4K, Canon colours, and HIGH BITRATES were all requirements,

So the XC10 became camera number 5.  It was a dream to shoot with, but I realised I didn't love the images.  At the time I found the deep DOF to not be to my liking, and I found the colours to be difficult to work with when you treat it like a video camera and put it on auto-everything.  I also found the images to be very soft, this is because I was shooting with too little light and it was doing heaps of NR, or too much light and because it couldn't do fast shutter speeds like a hybrid, it would close the aperture down well into diffraction territory.  

I shortlisted the A73 and the GH5.  The A73 had poor codecs and the GH5 had unreliable AF.  So I challenged myself and I tried Magic Lantern and the Sigma 18-35, which had the shallow DoF I was chasing, but considering that the setup didn't have any image stabilisation and was terrible in low-light, I knew I needed buy something else.  What I did learn though, was that I could manually focus ok.

Camera #6 was the GH5.  The 10-bit files were night and day nicer to grade than the XC10, and the footage reminded me of watching a professional colourist play with cinema camera footage, it felt the same.  I shot bunch of trips on the GH5 and it's still my main camera.

Camera #7 was the Sony X3000 - the 4K upgrade to my GoPro Hero 3, which was letting the side down.  When travelling I wanted a second camera with a wide angle for POV shots and quick shooting when on the move.  I found that I would arrive somewhere, often having driven, and in the process of getting out of the vehicle, wrangling kids if they were with us, getting tickets and getting into a venue, I wouldn't take out my camera until I was inside wherever we were going to see. This means no establishing shots.  The X3000 is the shot-getter that I can quickly use to get the transition sequences that glue an edit together.  

The challenge with the GH5 trying to get great colour.  It's good, but not great.  But, with a good enough capture, which I believe the GH5 is, any look is a few adjustments away.  So I bought the BMMCC for testing purposes (#8).  It has spectacular colour, and was affordable.  I started filming side-by-side tests with the BMMCC and GH5 and bought a colour checker.  Learning to colour grade, and colour grade the GH5 in particular, is an upgrade in retrospective - it upgrades all your previous footage, not just the stuff you're yet to shoot.

Around this time, COVID happened and the biggest year of travel yet was gradually cancelled.  I started my Go Shoot project, which was about shooting trips around the place, just to keep shooting, and to learn more.  It resulted in me butchering my GoPro Hero 3 trying to fit a D-mount lens to it for a vintage look, and then buying the SJ4000 and fitting it with M12 lenses (camera #9).  I shot videos on the GF3 again.  I loved the look of the BMMCC, but it was too big.

Camera #10 was the OG BMPCC, which was meant to be my Go Shoot camera.  The form factor was great and I shot a few outings, but it was too slow to work with, and worse, the screen is black when I wear my sunglasses, which in Australia are not optional, so it's a PITA.  

Camera #11 is the GX85.  It has IBIS, shoots 100Mbps 4K, is pocketable with the right lens, and can take vintage lenses. Plus, it's small and makes me look like a happy snapper and nothing more.  

Every purchase was earned, by studying what happened before, how it went, what I was shooting next, what situations that would be in, and then making my next move.  I've shot dozens of trips, totalling hundreds of days, and maybe crossed over to four-figures in terms of locations.  More if you count the tests I do, and shooting my kids sports events, which is the other main use for my setups.

Lenses is a story for another day, but I could tell a similar story about using what I had 'in battle' before buying new things.

My underlying principle is work out what is needed, try and bridge the gap with skill and by putting in the work, and only then, if nothing else works, buy the solution.  It's not for everyone, but it works for me.

[Emanuel]

3 hours ago, kye said:

Lenses is a story for another day, but I could tell a similar story about using what I had 'in battle' before buying new things.

Go ahead, fellow, love your stories and reflections about it BTW :- )

PS: Sounded to me a bit digitally Shakespearean my tone now but anyway...

 

PPS : D I knew I had listened it somewhere: https://shakespeare.sayit.mysociety.org/speech/546140

Without this kind of posting our world would be a much colder place in fact :- )

[leslie]

On 12/28/2021 at 4:02 AM, PannySVHS said:

Hallo dear friends,

in these rough times we all are happy to enjoy calm and joyful moments of comfort and peace of mind. The silly camera game belongs in that category of escaping the harsh reality once in a while. Even if we don´t own, rent nor use cameras a lot, we still like to fancy and, well, debate them.

I am myself guilty of owning a Sony PMW F3 and having not used it other than two lazy blinks out of my window.

It borders on criminal negligence doesn't it, owning good gear and not using it. I know the feeling well. I doubt the bm p4k i have has much more than an hour it.

I have over time managed to accumulate the gear to rig it out. Heck i have even gone to the trouble of finding a suitable hard case for protection and making it more accommodating to my needs.

Another aspect is my laptop doesn't like 4k and tends to fall over a lot when running resolve and 4k. I have taken steps to remedy that with a computer build, however i have hit a wall  and cant find the energy to finish the build... perhaps in the new year.

Yet i lack the incentive to use it. Other gear like the gopro, om-d10 and the iphone get a lot more use. I put it down to anxiety and the sheer convenience of using something.

The smartphone, i can pull it out of my pocket swipe the screen twice and be either taking a photo or video. Thats pure convenience. For a little more effort i can mount the phone to a crane gimbal in about a minute and not look like someone with Parkinson's desease, again a win.  Its great for me.

Would i blog with it ? yes i would. Would a cinematographer blog with it perhaps not, but each to their own.

The p4k on the other hand requires a more involved setup and a different mindset. I have yet to develop that mindset i think.

 

[Emanuel]

No, I think you have that mindset... You know good POVs of other people contribute for deeper insights of ourselves : ) P4K is able of that contribution IMO : ) For some reason they've called it a Pocket camera! : D

[PannySVHS]

Thank you guys for your points. Both my topics were covered awesomely and even put into context with one another. Great write ups! Now with that Varicam, it would be a camera I would absolutely love to have in my arsenal. If the seller puts the price down again, I will make him an offer.

[billdoubleu]

I've always preferred the Varicam look over any other dominate cine camera. I know I'm in the minority here, haha!

A good and recent example is The Art of Self-Defense. Red is the dominate color throughout the film and I think it looks fantastic. They were heavy handed with the grain, but, I think it works with the tone of the film and looks amazing overall.

https://film-grab.com/2020/08/07/the-art-of-self-defence/

[aaa123jc]

On 12/28/2021 at 8:40 PM, PannySVHS said:

I think I enjoy the thought of possibility of testing and using all this gear and the thrill to buy them for cheap. Maybe we could start a thread with the best cam deals we made the last couple years.

This is such a great idea I wonder why no one had started such a thread. 😄

Buying quality gears for cheap is probably the most exciting thing for a videographer, especially one with GAS. It's not very healthy for the wallet though. And my girlfriend ande I used to have quite intense arguments because of that, until she gets GAS herself.

Anyway, I think the BMMCC is already a great camera. I used to want it very much but could't get myself a good deal. I really like its form factor and what it is capable of. The sensors of older Blackmagic cameras are almost magical.

The Varicam, on the other hand, has a very unique look. Very vibrant color, but the skintone might be a bit too meganta. However, I believe it is better than the EVA-1 in this regard. The EVA-1 has great color except for skintone which almost always requires some tweaking in post.

The FS700 you own is also a hidden gem, IMO, even more so than the famous F3. Pair it with an external recorder, it is as capable as any modern camera. I even use it without the recorder for lower budget jobs and the clients love it.

[webrunner5]

I think one of the best buys now used is the Sony FS5. I have seen them for 1200 dollars. Crazy. The variable ND alone is worth that. They are a really small cine camera. Maybe not the Best CS but hey..

[BenEricson]

On 1/2/2022 at 4:53 PM, webrunner5 said:

I think one of the best buys now used is the Sony FS5. I have seen them for 1200 dollars. Crazy. The variable ND alone is worth that. They are a really small cine camera. Maybe not the Best CS but hey..

How to with John Wilson is shot with that camera. It definitely has a video look, especially in that show. It is certainly a deal. Sony cameras depreciate like no other.

[webrunner5]

Well I i agree with you but I think the reason they depreciate some much so quickly is 2 reasons, 1. Sony makes a better one 6 months later, and 2. Sony sold a Hell of a lot of the ones before the new one. Catch 22 lol.

 Back in the day rental houses had to order new shelving just to hold all the FS5s and FS7s everyone wanted to rent.

[A_Urquhart]

On 12/28/2021 at 5:02 AM, PannySVHS said:

Hallo dear friends,

in these rough times we all are happy to enjoy calm and joyful moments of comfort and peace of mind. The silly camera game belongs in that category of escaping the harsh reality once in a while. Even if we don´t own, rent nor use cameras a lot, we still like to fancy and, well, debate them.

I am myself guilty of owning a Sony PMW F3 and having not used it other than two lazy blinks out of my window. For one and a half year, nothing, still nothing filmed yet! I bought a BMMCC a couple weeks ago and have only shot some test footage once. Owning two FS700, having used one of them (or was it the other:) only twice in two years! My Shogun Flame is still waiting for its cage, because I dont wanna spend the money. It´s still being unused as a recorder and as monitor. My S1 has performed a bit but not much. Lenses are an even worse story! Isco 16 2x unused, Tevidon lenses ununsed, Vivitar 90mm F2.5, Tokina 28-70 2.6 and so on!

And still I am asking myself about the Varicam LT, because of its rep as a "real" camera. I am fascinated by both, the underdog and affordable cameras and the notion of a real cinema camera like Alexa, Red cameras, Sony Cinealtas and Varicams.

So what do you think? Is the Varicam LT giving me so much more imagewise than a S1? What does it have over URSA Broadcast G2 or Mini Pro G1? Why do I fancy owning one, when not having used my other cameras for real? Two topics in one.:) cheers

Sounds like most of your gear is sitting unused. It doesn't really matter what you shoot nothing on, it will all look like nothing. 😜

[PannySVHS]

  

On 1/2/2022 at 6:03 PM, aaa123jc said:

This is such a great idea I wonder why no one had started such a thread. 😄

The FS700 you own is also a hidden gem, IMO, even more so than the famous F3. Pair it with an external recorder, it is as capable as any modern camera. I even use it without the recorder for lower budget jobs and the clients love it.

Yeah, saw some awesome stuff shot in cine4 with it and internal HD 8bit 420. So maybe one of us starts a thread with the best buys, and additional best buys which we ever hardly used plus the stories to not using them!

16 hours ago, A_Urquhart said:

Sounds like most of your gear is sitting unused. It doesn't really matter what you shoot nothing on, it will all look like nothing. 😜

That´s right!:) But, at least FS700 got used for two paid gigs, one of them with internal HD SLog2. One of the two gigs was last year even.:) In 2021 I had to do two shorts with other cameras due to lack of rigging, time or due to request of the producer. At least my S1 got some use as a B-Cam and produced beautiful images. Last year it was BCam and even ACam to a C300II. But still, darn you are right.:)

My F3 waiting for an EVF and for its first legit footage. BMMCC getting ready for some digital Super16 anamorphic, but still waiting after a first test. Darn, but in a good way too, so much exiting tech!:)

On 1/3/2022 at 1:53 AM, webrunner5 said:

I think one of the best buys now used is the Sony FS5. I have seen them for 1200 dollars. Crazy. The variable ND alone is worth that. They are a really small cine camera. Maybe not the Best CS but hey..

I would hope CS was pretty good from my experience with my FS700. I heard that it either performs better under 5600K or 3200K, making a huge difference. The vari ND for sure would be a great thing to for some variation in DOF. Should browse vimeo a bit for some nice filmic experiments with it.:)

 

ANYWAY, the Varicam LT sold for 5500EUR!

It was completely rigged, with two P2-Cards, viewfinder, shoulder rig, handles and V-mount. Before, it was even offered by the seller for 4500, but seems like too many potential buyers offered more, so they put it back in for 5500. I was hoping the other way around.:)