Old treasures...

[Emanuel]

Pictures are the destination of cameras and glass. They didn't begin with bits and bytes. Here's the proof YouTube serves not only for garbage clickbait, here's one -- I tried to find it guess where:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Bauman_(film)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Bauman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauman_Street,_Kazan

[Emanuel]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0347660

[PannySVHS]

360p youtube looks worse than anything:) But thanks for getting a point across. Why this film. Looks a bit dull. There are other classics of Soviet cinema. There are also more than one classic Soviet lens. Helios 58mm is not the end of all lens desires. This film looks rather like something like this, to give it a lens equivalent. 🙂

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smena_(camera)

[Emanuel]

Loved everything in that shot... Minute 28:49 -- take a look on that lighting!

By the way and here's another shot (the thesis or antithesis as you wish of the whole Soviet period's collective when individuals emerge from) and another scene where sound is used not from frame but into the frame (Lenin defended the allied Bauman when he got pregnant the woman of a fellow and she hanged herself) over the children's realm.

Calls to me more prone to be classified as masterpiece :- )

 

[tupp]

Nikolay Bauman is certainly a well done and engaging movie.

In the shot you mentioned at 28:49, it's a very nice, beautiful touch to have the light beams through haze/smoke/steam/fog to accentuate a large space.  However, it's not as if that lighting gag hadn't been done a zillion times before (nor since) 1967.

In regards to the off-shot/off-scene dialog pickups, they are certainly effective and add interest.   Of course, those audio editing techniques were in use well before 1967.

As for Soviet movies from 1967, there was a small project that year that had some interesting cinematography/editing.  Here is one scene from that film that I think does a decent job of utilizing "the language of the camera," although there is nothing particularly special about the lighting.

There is a nice little crane shot at the 03:23 mark.

[Mark Romero 2]

Sorry to everyone for taking this off topic, but I have to ask something

@tupp : Can I interrupt and ask you a question about c-stands???

Since I know you have experience with such things, do gaffers actually hang lights from c stands on grip arms and gobos? 

I have to ask because so many people on youtube say that the "proper" way to boom lights is use a c-stand and a grip arm, but I have also seen a few people say that is completely wrong. since C-Stands have a narrower footprint than spreader stands are are more likely to tip over (even with sandbags). 

I thought that most gaffers would mount lights either on a spreader light stand, or if they were to use a C-stand, they would mount the light on on the baby pin of a c-stand, and then use a grip arm on a separate c-stand to hold diffusion in front.

I though booming lights was supposed to be done on a light stand with a (counter-weighted) boom arm.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

[tupp]

On 12/31/2021 at 1:49 AM, Mark Romero 2 said:

.. do gaffers actually hang lights from c stands on grip arms and gobos? 

Yes, set electricians (but rarely the gaffer) arm-out lights from C-stands.  There are three common methods for arming-out with a C-stand:

1. Mount the item on the grip arm and extend the arm "righty-tighty;"
2. "Cantilever" the grip arm with a ratchet strap or a trucker's hitch;
3. Boom the grip arm, using a sand bag as a counter weight.

 

On 12/31/2021 at 1:49 AM, Mark Romero 2 said:

I have to ask because so many people on youtube say that the "proper" way to boom lights is use a c-stand and a grip arm, but I have also seen a few people say that is completely wrong. since C-Stands have a narrower footprint than spreader stands are are more likely to tip over (even with sandbags).

It depends on the size of the stand and the load to be armed-out.  A junior/combo stand will be capable of a larger footprint than a C-stand, and they are much stronger than a C-stand.  A typical baby stand might not be as good as a C-stand for this purpose.

 

On 12/31/2021 at 1:49 AM, Mark Romero 2 said:

I thought that most gaffers would mount lights either on a spreader light stand, or if they were to use a C-stand, they would mount the light on on the baby pin of a c-stand, and then use a grip arm on a separate c-stand to hold diffusion in front.

There are countless ways to arm-out a light, and there are many booms and cantilevers designed especially to do so.  It's a large and involved subject.

There are just as many ways to suspend diffusion in front of a light.

Here is a basic primer on setting C-stands.

 

On 12/31/2021 at 1:49 AM, Mark Romero 2 said:

I though booming lights was supposed to be done on a light stand with a (counter-weighted) boom arm.

In my opinion, booming is the best and most versatile way to arm out a fixture with standard gear, but the cantilever method is most often seen on big sets.  The problem with the cantilever method is that the strap or trucker's hitch has to be reset every time you want to move/adjust the height/angle/extension of the arm.  Since there is always downward stress on that arm, it is a hassle to reset a cantilever.

Again, there are plenty of specially made boom rigs that fit on combo stands or C-stands.  A popular such rig is the menace arm.  Relatively recently, versatile cantilevers rigs have appeared, such as the Matthews Max and Max Mini.

By the way, if you are not familiar with the set lighting hierarchy, you should know that there is usually only one gaffer on set.  The only exceptions to having more than one gaffer occurs when there is a B-unit or C-unit, or when there is a separate rigging crew.  Likewise, there is only one key grip if there is only a single unit and no rigging grip crew.

Here are the typical ranks regarding lighting personnel in most big, departmentalized shows with separate electric and grip rankings:

GAFFER (Electric Department);

       - BEST BOY ELECTRIC;

            -  THIRD ELECTRICIANS (usually 3 or more);

       - KEYGRIP  (Grip Department);

            - BEST BOY GRIP;

                   - GRIPS (usually 3 or more).

Essentially, the electricians do anything that directly involves lighting fixtures and power on set.

The grips are in charge of "outboard" light controls that do not touch the lights, such as flags, scrims, silks, frames, etc., and they also provide some set rigging for fixtures and set pieces.  Grips are also in charge of camera support when it involves a dolly (hence, the dolly grip).

Most grips nowadays will dispute that they take orders from the Gaffer in regards to lighting, but it certainly was that way for a long time.  Until a few decades ago, there was no such position as a "Best Boy Grip."  The "Best Boy" was only a management position in the electric department.  Grips eventually realized that they also could benefit from a middle manager.

 

[Mark Romero 2]

28 minutes ago, tupp said:

Yes, set electricians (but rarely the gaffer) arm-out lights from C-stands.  There are three common methods for arming-out with a C-stand:

1. Mount the item on the grip arm and extend the arm "righty-tighty;"
2. "Cantilever" the grip arm with a ratchet strap or a trucker's hitch;
3. Boom the grip arm, using a sand bag as a counter weight.

 

It depends on the size of the stand and the load to be armed-out.  A junior/combo stand will be capable of a larger footprint than a C-stand, and they are much stronger than a C-stand.  A typical baby stand might not be as good as a C-stand for this purpose.

 

There are countless ways to arm-out a light, and there are many booms and cantilevers designed especially to do so.  It's a large and involved subject.

There are just as many ways to suspend diffusion in front of a light.

Here is a basic primer on setting C-stands.

 

In my opinion, booming is the best and most versatile way to arm out a fixture with standard gear, but the cantilever method is most often seen on big sets.  The problem with the cantilever method is that the strap or trucker's hitch has to be reset every time you want to move/adjust the height/angle/extension of the arm.  Since there is always downward stress on that arm, it is a hassle to reset a cantilever.

Again, there are plenty of specially made boom rigs that fit on combo stands or C-stands.  A popular such rig is the menace arm.  Relatively recently, versatile cantilevers rigs have appeared, such as the Matthews Max and Max Mini.

By the way, if you are not familiar with the set lighting hierarchy, you should know that there is usually only one gaffer on set.  The only exceptions to having more than one gaffer occurs when there is a B-unit or C-unit, or when there is a separate rigging crew.  Likewise, there is only one key grip if there is only a single unit and no rigging grip crew.

Here are the typical ranks regarding lighting personnel in most big, departmentalized shows with separate electric and grip rankings:

GAFFER (Electric Department);

       - BEST BOY ELECTRIC;

            -  THIRD ELECTRICIANS (usually 3 or more);

       - KEYGRIP  (Grip Department);

            - BEST BOY GRIP;

                   - GRIPS (usually 3 or more).

Essentially, the electricians do anything that directly involves lighting fixtures and power on set.

The grips are in charge of "outboard" light controls that do not touch the lights, such as flags, scrims, silks, frames, etc., and they also provide some set rigging for fixtures and set pieces.  Grips are also in charge of camera support when it involves a dolly (hence, the dolly grip).

Most grips nowadays will dispute that they take orders from the Gaffer in regards to lighting, but it certainly was that way for a long time.  Until a few decades ago, there was no such position as a "Best Boy Grip."  The "Best Boy" was only a management position in the electric department.  Grips eventually realized that they also could benefit from a middle manager.

 

Thank you for all the excellent info. Really appreciate it. 

One more quick question if I may...

I know there are C-Stands with sliding big legs (to deal with things like stairs or uneven ground) and then stands without a sliding leg. Is either one "stronger"? Meaning, if someone gets a C-Stand with a sliding leg, will it be rated for less weight than a stand with a non-sliding big leg?

Thanks in advance.

[noone]

On 12/31/2021 at 12:00 AM, PannySVHS said:

360p youtube looks worse than anything:) But thanks for getting a point across. Why this film. Looks a bit dull. There are other classics of Soviet cinema. There are also more than one classic Soviet lens. Helios 58mm is not the end of all lens desires. This film looks rather like something like this, to give it a lens equivalent. 🙂

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smena_(camera)

I just got a Helios 44M-6 for $20 (Australian) with a camera.

I am shocked at how much i like it given it is almost throw away and especially because it focuses to infinity (I was led to believe if I used a flange adapter I would have a reduced range or I could use a non flange adapter but only wide open unless the pin is taped down).

I can use my cheap Neewer m42 to E mount flange adapter with infinity and able to stop down.

I will probably not use it for video but I can highly recommend it (mine is almost like new).

[tupp]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:32 AM, Mark Romero 2 said:

know there are C-Stands with sliding big legs (to deal with things like stairs or uneven ground) and then stands without a sliding leg. Is either one "stronger"? Meaning, if someone gets a C-Stand with a sliding leg, will it be rated for less weight than a stand with a non-sliding big leg?

I am ignorant of C-stand weight ratings, but I doubt that there is much difference in weight capacity between a plain C-stand and a C-stand with the typical "Rocky Mountain" leg.

On the other hand, one should never get even close to loading stands to their rated capacity.  Putting too much of a load on a C-stand might not end well (nor will it start well if the grip arm gets bent).  If one is not sure the stand can take the load, use a bigger, stronger stand.

 

[kye]

8 hours ago, noone said:

I just got a Helios 44M-6 for $20 (Australian) with a camera.

I am shocked at how much i like it given it is almost throw away and especially because it focuses to infinity (I was led to believe if I used a flange adapter I would have a reduced range or I could use a non flange adapter but only wide open unless the pin is taped down).

I can use my cheap Neewer m42 to E mount flange adapter with infinity and able to stop down.

I will probably not use it for video but I can highly recommend it (mine is almost like new).

The Helios is a spectacular lens and is only cheap because of the sheer quantity of them made.  I've read it's the most mass-produced lens on the planet.

The Helios has famously been modified by multiple groups for modern cinema use.  One such conversion is by a company called Dog Schidt Optiks, which modified the Helios to flare as much as possible, to give a very retro vibe.  Andrew wrote about it here:

https://www.eoshd.com/lens/digital-goes-back-to-the-70s-1st-impressions-of-dog-schnit-optiks-flare-factory-58-lens-and-sample-photos/

This lens is included in this huge test of 50mm lenses, which includes many of the greatest cine lenses available regardless of price:

You will note that it is very sharp wide open, and has quite pleasing characteristics.  It's worth spending a few minutes comparing it to the other great optics (timestamps in the description) to really see how good it is.  Of course, it flares like hell, as that's what this variation of the lens is designed to do.

It's also used in the Ironglass set which is a set of professionally rehoused Soviet optics:

https://ironglassadapters.com

I have two of the Helios's - the 44M and a 44-2, which are included in this lens test here:

The lens is a copy of the Carl Zeiss Biotar 58mm but has a dreamier look, which with todays high-resolution cameras, contributes a welcome antidote to the digititis that lovers of cinema recoil from.

This is an interesting article about it if you want more information..  https://www.gearfocus.com/blog/2020/05/helios-44-2-bokeh-king

Don't confuse cheap with low quality! 🙂 

[noone]

On 1/4/2022 at 3:36 PM, kye said:

 

The lens is a copy of the Carl Zeiss Biotar 58mm but has a dreamier look, which with todays high-resolution cameras, contributes a welcome antidote to the digititis that lovers of cinema recoil from.

This is an interesting article about it if you want more information..  https://www.gearfocus.com/blog/2020/05/helios-44-2-bokeh-king

Don't confuse cheap with low quality! 🙂 

I had a Biotar years ago.    A really old one with 17 blades (I think it was) and it was sharp but very low contrast.   Of my two (from memory for the Biotar) I would say the Biotar was the one with the dreamy look and the Helios is almost like any similar lens of its era.    Just got a hood for it yesterday too, not that i had any real issues with stray light.

My Helios is one of the newest.      The coating was probably the biggest difference although the Biotar was a lot smaller