Canon EOS R5C

[Andrew Reid]

37 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

This, and I think they have just made a total mess of the mirrorless line, crippling the living shit out of the lower stuff and just have come out with too many confusing high end stuff as of late, and none of them what they ought to be for the money asked. Not counting I am not a fan of their new Color Science. I thought I would never say that about a Canon product.

Yeah Canon colour science has become modernised and the others have caught up anyway, so that's no longer really the big selling point it once was. Fuji, Blackmagic & Panasonic very nice. Sony still a bit off but certainly improving. Canon-LOG is no longer the best LOG format either. Panasonic caught up nicely with V-LOG and Blackmagic as well. Maybe LOG profiles will become less relevant in future when we're all shooting compressed RAW any way.

The pricing is nutty across the board for the RF lenses. £2.5K for a prime lens you can only use on one system is not acceptable to me. I can only imagine what consumers think to that. In the modern world of consumer electronics you could get a really top end Macbook Pro for the price of just one lens like the Canon 50mm RF F1.2. Unless you have existing EF lenses, it's a high premium just to get some fast apertures & AF in the mix.

Nikon Z9 is the best all-round body for me. I have a top class autofocus system and editing codec. Fastest full frame sensor on the market. Nice ergonomics and a big battery. With the Fringer adapter for EF lenses, I don't need to go full on and invest in new Nikon Z lenses. It's really reliable on my Z6. On Z9 it will probably be even better.

Canon has bet the imaging division on EOS RF mount. EF is dead. All I can say is that it's a good job they have a thriving photocopier division because their camera department is going to shrink back into a niche of pro bodies and lenses.

I really can't get over the lack of apology from Canon about the EOS R5 troubles either. Really unethical and arrogant behaviour. Really glad I don't have a dilemma of a really must-have Canon camera I want to buy, so I can be comfortable to continue not to support the liars in that company.

Also I don't see a Canon EOS R6 II or Canon EOS R5 II any time soon giving us anything like a big step forward. It will all be little baby steps from here on like it was once the 5D II and EF mount was established.

With a Nikon Z9 you're not exactly going to be left wanting for much anyway... What's going to be the big bait and switch once that comes out? Same specs for £2000 from Canon? Not going to happen!

[Django]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

What matters more than EVF dots is the quality of the live-view feed to it.

Z9 refresh rate is 60fps and drops to 30fps in certain modes where the A1 has constant 120fps.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I can't see a downside to the E-shutter on the Z9. Any actual evidence of one?

Yes there's been reports of banding/strobing under LED lighting which can be very problematic for sport shooters (the main target!):

The Z9 features a fully-electronic shutter, rather than a mechanical or hybrid shutter. I know you’ve had some issues with the dreaded ‘LED banding’ on advertising screens – can you talk me through it?

To date, I’ve shot about ten professional jobs with the Z9, covering four different sports, indoors and outdoors, and it’s been an issue – I won’t call it a problem, as such – in about half of the places I’ve been to.

(...)

 

Is there a fix?

Maybe. Canon’s EOS R3 has a feature that attempts to measure this high-frequency flicker, then fine-tunes its shutter speed to one that will minimize the flicker effect. We’ve not yet tried it with an LED signage board that makes up only a small part of the image, but a similar approach is probably Nikon's best hope if it decides to address the problem.

https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/8897575261/interview-sports-photographer-mark-pain-on-the-new-nikon-z9

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

S1H has all of the extra video features of EOS R5C... LUT support, anamorphic (proper open gate not just desequeze), focus, exposure tools, etc. Personally I prefer to see the shot I am taking rather than a big graph!

I will probably never buy another Canon.

I don't like the EOS R lenses. They're as bulky and expensive as it gets... Heavier than my medium format GFX lenses.

Fair enough. I'm well invested in Canon (EF) glass and don't find L-mount glass interesting enough to switch not to mention I need advanced PDAF for both stills/video, so that leaves Panasonic off-limits for my needs.

Nikon, I have a longtime affair with and know their AF system is great but I'm always afraid their lack of video department means they're going to drop the ball somewhere. The fact that there is like 5 users out there and none videographers isn't helping much with user feedback. It might be a killer hybrid but it might be a sleeper too.. 

Sony Alpha, way behind with no internal RAW or high resolution (aside A1) and still consumer type bodies (no pro/grip body) of which I just hate the shooting experience.

So I kinda stick with Canon by default. I really like the customisation, and R5C seems to take it next-level on the video side (for a hybrid that is). Not a perfect camera though, they should have kept IBIS and give it a full HDMI imo.

 

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Z9 refresh rate is 60fps and drops to 30fps in certain modes where the A1 has constant 120fps.

Refresh rate = frame rate.

That is not the same as rolling shutter speed.

1 hour ago, Django said:

The Z9 features a fully-electronic shutter, rather than a mechanical or hybrid shutter. I know you’ve had some issues with the dreaded ‘LED banding’ on advertising screens – can you talk me through it?

Is this really a problem unique to the Z9?

I don't think it is. I recall Sony cameras had issues too.

Would be curious to see how a mechanical shutter handles a 240hz LED ad board at certain shutter speeds.

It's probably a solution to try and sync shutter speed or go a bit lower.

 

[ND64]

2 hours ago, independent said:

At some point, we're all just arguing over how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin.

The correct answer of course is just one fallen angel, the Komodo. 

I understand the confidence RED camera makes for both its owner and the clients. Its like wedding photography that people think big DSLR like 1DX makes their once-in-lifetime photos look magazine-level professional! So even when the photographer knows a prosumer small camera is perfectly fine for the job, he or she invests in the most expensive body, to tell everyone in the party: "Don't worry, I know what I'm doing". 

[ND64]

47 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Is this really a problem unique to the Z9?

I don't think it is. I recall Sony cameras had issues too.

I don't think its happening in video mode. The LED issue is related to the way Nikon and Sony readout the sensor: 12 rows a time. If it was line by line, the banding would be single pixel thin, and therefore unnoticeable. However its only an issue with LED signage and wall displays, not LED lights. 

[Emanuel]

As far as I could understand, not every shots are handheld despite the information there...

In any case, it's quite promising to those who only need it for shaky hands and use a gimbal when for camera movement shots:

8K 50p is pretty handy to replace a stills camera too ;- )

[Emanuel]

In any case, handheld approach can fit the job for certain shooting style as it is easily possible to check it out on minute 5:01 there.

Gordon Laing's test on 24-105mm f/4 @105mm looks also fairly decent, especially going along the Optical IS only or even coupled to Digital IS, High mode for best results, albeit the crop.

[webrunner5]

I am sure it is the future. and it will only get better and better. GoPro seems to have figured it out, but it is on a lot smaller sensor.

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, Emanuel said:

8K 50p is pretty handy to replace a stills camera too ;- )

6k and even 4k are also pretty valid.

The only real negative though is shutter speed.

I've tried it with pretty decent results, - extracting 4k stills from 4k footage, but if you are shooting say 25p and 50fps and there's a lot of movement in the subject, well you don't notice it in video because...well because it's video, - it's supposed to be moving.

But with stills, unless we deliberately want to convey movement with some motion blur, 1/50th of a second capture equivalent isn't always enough.

Boundaries are continually blurring however and I reckon I could get away with producing an entire set of results from a wedding today using 4k grabs and not a single client would notice.

I would know however (obviously doh!) because first, all 'pics' would be in the landscape format unless heavily cropped into portrait from the landscape orientated footage (square capture could be the answer!), but 'know' because an equivalent sensor camera capturing raw stills is always going to produce a better end result than a screen grab.

There is an answer to this however and that is instead of using an ND, just shoot higher speed video in the first place, ie, compromise the video very very slightly in order to facilitate better screen grabs.

It works, - I've tried it, but just don't have the balls to go over to it fully.

Maybe if I was shooting 8k or even 6k, I might...

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, Emanuel said:

As far as I could understand, not every shots are handheld despite the information there...

Possibly the 'not every shot' is in regard to the final part where the camera is static on a tripod?

Otherwise, quite impressive actually if that's OIS only. Based on that, it would certainly be good enough for my needs.

I wouldn't walk with it, but hand held 'static' footage and maybe some very gentle push in/pull out...

Maybe it could be an S1H with a larger sensor...

[Andrew Reid]

6 hours ago, Emanuel said:

As far as I could understand, not every shots are handheld despite the information there...

In any case, it's quite promising to those who only need it for shaky hands and use a gimbal when for camera movement shots:

8K 50p is pretty handy to replace a stills camera too ;- )

It looks nice because Slashcam have a nice subject.

It also looks steadier because slow-mo handheld footage just does.

What distracted me the most from the nice subject was the 8K.

Every imperfection in the skin and hair just rammed into my retina.

And she is far from imperfect looking.

What is the point of 8K exactly?!

[MrSMW]

47 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What is the point of 8K exactly?!

Playing devils advocate for a moment, punching in?

But not if the subject has less than perfect skin!

 

[Emanuel]

@Andrew Reid LOL I thought what distracted you from 8K was the nice subject... : D Slowmo helps anyway, that's for sure! : )

You're right 8K is not forgiving at all, but can help giving room for reframing or large format prints from video footage grabs, as for instance.

 

@MrSMW

Yeah, exactly my feelings : ) Reason why I'm wondering on this one now and paying attention to these early tests :- )

On shutter speed, there are these workarounds why if stabilization works, we might be closer of a more hybrid device.

On my doubts how they reached their results, they wrote in their article they're using the Sachtler Flowtech75 aktiv MS tripod, hence why. Only for that part the camera is visibly on a tripod?

 

 

[BTM_Pix]

26 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

But not if the subject has less than perfect skin!

Great, I'll be humming that all night now.

[Emanuel]

32 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

(...)

On my doubts how they reached their results, they wrote in their article they're using the Sachtler Flowtech75 aktiv MS tripod, hence why. Only for that part the camera is visibly on a tripod?

That 'visibly' remark up there should be in italic but you all get what I mean : ) I think the fact I'm here wondering on the use of a tripod or not, it's already symptomatic per se... ;- )

[independent]

23 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

I understand the confidence RED camera makes for both its owner and the clients. Its like wedding photography that people think big DSLR like 1DX makes their once-in-lifetime photos look magazine-level professional! So even when the photographer knows a prosumer small camera is perfectly fine for the job, he or she invests in the most expensive body, to tell everyone in the party: "Don't worry, I know what I'm doing". 

Well you're committing several logical errors. You're implying that it's not important for the owner to have confidence in his own gear or gain the client's confidence. I'd say both assumptions are wrong. Second, a prosumer small camera may be fine for filming your cousin's fourth wedding during a pandemic. However, in any real paid gig, any pro would know the practical benefits of professional equipment. 

And there are practical reasons for Red or Arri's reputation. For the Komodo, Redcode Raw is accessible at a competitive price point, which distinguishes it from cameras that largely share the same feature set. 

But it's not a hybrid camera, which makes the R5/C or R3 compelling choices depending on the situation. But there's nothing wrong with using your GH3 to shoot your cousin's wedding. Hope she made you a plate.

[webrunner5]

That sort of sounds like my dick is bigger than your dick statement. There is no reason in hell to use a Red to film a wedding unless you are showing off. This isn't 2012 anymore. Who the hell shoots a wedding in all raw unless it is a quickie. Someone worth a crap can shoot a wedding on a Smartphone.

  The only reason Red is even still in business is they gave half the cameras they make to high end people to get exposure. Yeah years ago they were the only game in town, far, far and away from that now. They are sort of the Rolex watch of photography, more show than go.

[herein2020]

11 hours ago, Emanuel said:

As far as I could understand, not every shots are handheld despite the information there...

In any case, it's quite promising to those who only need it for shaky hands and use a gimbal when for camera movement shots:

8K 50p is pretty handy to replace a stills camera too ;- )

 

I actually think it further proves my point that handheld without IBIS is terrible, if you closely watch the edges it is very jittery at times, admittedly I think OIS was off for a lot of the tests and I think it can't be used at all in the RAW modes which is another limitation when the camera does not have IBIS that the Canon reps conveniently don't really discuss openly.

I think most if not all of it really was handheld, you could see the videographer's reflection in the sunglasses at times and he was shooting handheld. Let's not even forget that some or all of this was slow motion......of course footage will look steadier when shooting in slow motion.

I do think its possible to fix the shakiness in post processing but the fact it was shaky like that, even after slowing down the footage, and it was visible even when the background was so heavily blurred, and despite the fact the videographer was barely moving really proves my point there's no way this camera would perform well for events without a gimbal.

On an unrelated topic, I did some research into my current S5 V-Mount setup and discovered that my USB-A mount plate for the V-Mount adapter only puts out 5V 1A which is not enough to power the R5C so for me that further eliminates the R5C as a potential S5 replacement.

 

[Emanuel]

10 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

On an unrelated topic, I did some research into my current S5 V-Mount setup and discovered that my USB-A mount plate for the V-Mount adapter only puts out 5V 1A which is not enough to power the R5C so for me that further eliminates the R5C as a potential S5 replacement.

 

Have you watched it that video before with the drummer? Is there any trouble going with that external USB powerbank source?

[herein2020]

9 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Have you watched it that video before with the drummer? Is there any trouble going with that external USB powerbank source?

 

I saw the drummer video, but each clip is less than 3s and he is already waving the camera around all over the place so although that is fine for a music video it does not show stability when it is needed for other types of shoots. 

I am sure there are compatible power banks, but the fact remains that I can power my S5 and many other mirrorless cameras continuously for 6-8hrs with my current setup but wouldn't even be able to power the R5C at all. My current setup was almost $2K and works perfectly and is interchangeable with my C200 and S5. Yes there are ways to resolve the limitations for the R5C but that's another expense that I wouldn't need to spend with my current setup.

I think a better approach would have been for the R5C to accept any USB-C external power source and simply prevent 8K60FPS and some other modes I will never use vs. not accepting any external source that was not USB PD compliant. I would be perfectly happy with 4K30/60FPS and my non USB PD power setup.

Canon just really missed the mark with this one IMO.....they focused on a spec that no one was asking for or cared about (8K) and made the camera unusable for shooters like me with complicated power requirements and no IBIS. 4K60FPS, IBIS, unlimited recording, multi-function hotshoe, and exposure tools along with no overheating and DPAF along with around 30Mp of photography resolution would make a lot of shooters very happy me included.