Canon EOS R5C

[webrunner5]

True but if you are shooting 8K they would not last long sad to say.

[mkabi]

8 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

True but if you are shooting 8K they would not last long sad to say.

True... but thats reality. Cost of CF Express Type B.... isn't exactly bargain basement - even with other brands.

You know what man... just give it 10 years. Everyone wants now... now now now....

You know I recently bagged a Blackmagic 2.5K Cinema Camera... yeah... I know its old, but the images that come out of that is undeniable. Moreover, people used to complain about storage if you filmed 2.5K RAW... this is 10 years ago (actually, people were even complaining 5 years ago) anyway.... now... you can get a 1TB SSD from ebay for $100 and that will hold about 4 hours of 2.5K RAW. Grab 3 SSDs and you are good for an event. Even the EF mount now has a magic booster... give it time... shit happens....

[TomTheDP]

11 hours ago, kye said:

Yeah, I know there are but it seems to be the exception.  I frequently find that discussions with "pros" assume you'll be able to operate fully manually, that you can have a rig the size of a fridge (or truck) if you need it, that light can be provided / modified to suit the composition, and that normal camera accessories will all be fine (up to the point where it makes the operator resemble a Borg drone).  Any mention of situations where the speed of working is a factor or there are any limitations that might impact what you can do seem to be considered an exception.  Those situations do seem to be handled pretty well when they come up, so I'm not suggesting a limitation on their behalf, merely assumptions around what is considered normal.

I laughed pretty hard when the guy below mentioned that he had to work "incredibly fast" (6:25) to get a few random shots of his GF sitting on a train, or to get someone in focus on an escalator (essentially it's a stationary portrait when both of you are moving at the same speed).

If he found that filming a subject who was motionless and would respond to direction to be "incredibly fast" then we've basically run out of words!  "Extreme" seems suitable language to indicate to people that they should set aside their normal mode of thinking.

The GH5 is still a really great offering at the intersection of the various considerations needed for working in highly unpredictable and fast-moving situations, despite showing its age in a number of ways (DR, colour, codecs, low-light).
I'm not going to be in the market for a GH5 replacement until I start travelling again after COVID is actually gone (rather than the current wishful thinking that's going on in the PR departments of most governments), but I'm considering the GH6 and also the FP as potential replacements.

The GH6 would keep the strengths of the GH5 but doesn't completely bridge the gap between the GH5 and current FF cameras in terms of low-light, DR, and perhaps colour (jury is still out on that one I think).  The FP would limit me to OIS lenses (and likely less stabilisation compared to the GH5 with IBIS on unstabilised primes) but I think (when combined with a BM Video Assist to get BRAW and its sensible bitrates) it would buy me considerably better codec, DR, colour, and perhaps low-light too, so it might be a sacrifice worth making.  I've also done a bunch of work during COVID around my editing process and style and have changed my requirements a bit because of that.

Neither of these options is anywhere near the price of something like the R5C, which is competing in another league (8K RAW, DPAF, etc).  I must admit that if I was willing to invest significantly more into a camera system, and was chasing something with PDAF then the R5C would be a contender, along with things like the FX3.

Do you use an external monitor on the GH5?

I feel the GH5 ISO range is much more sensible for run and gun shooting. Though I guess the native 2000 would be nice for lowlight situations. I've felt the GH5 performed nicely up to 3200 iso. I suppose on the GH6 you can always drop to the standard single gain mode and get a native 400 iso.

I think the GH6 may be the best run and gun camera now.

I feel like a Sigma FP with BM video assist is too cumbersome. The video assist is also a power hungry bastard. The FP with a little SSD on top and the tilt screen mod seems really run and gun friendly. Not sure what good options there are for OIS lenses and L mount. A 2TB card gets you 2 hours in 4k, not bad at all. You can compress to 7/1 raw and get really small files with Slimraw. But you can only monitor accurately at iso 100, unless you have a ninja V. Overall I feel the Sigma FP isn't terribly run and gun friendly. Too many little quirks.

I am planning on using the FP as a travel cam as well as an Alexa B cam. For travel I generally shoot wider so I don't have to worry about stabilization. I think on full frame I can get away with shooting up to 50mm handheld without much of an issue.

[PannySVHS]

That beauty also comes in a flavour of MFT mount for C-mount and Focal reducers in action. @mkabi So this is indeed a great image taker for people who are not in want for 50p. Dunno if Rawlite has a Oplf or IRcut filter for it. If so, even better.

[mkabi]

12 hours ago, kye said:

Yeah, I know there are but it seems to be the exception.  I frequently find that discussions with "pros" assume you'll be able to operate fully manually, that you can have a rig the size of a fridge (or truck) if you need it, that light can be provided / modified to suit the composition, and that normal camera accessories will all be fine (up to the point where it makes the operator resemble a Borg drone).  Any mention of situations where the speed of working is a factor or there are any limitations that might impact what you can do seem to be considered an exception.  Those situations do seem to be handled pretty well when they come up, so I'm not suggesting a limitation on their behalf, merely assumptions around what is considered normal.

 

The problem with so called "pros" is that they have been tricked into thinking that way... you need that kind of $100K setup to be a big shot. The main problem are the producers... they come from old school methods of film making where you need those kind of huge cameras, rigs and setups.

I remember someone telling me or reading it somewhere, that once the guy brought DSLR to a gig and the producer turned around and said something as cocky as, "I have a camera like that at home, so if I can just bring that to set... may be I wouldn't need you."

I would've said, "Fine, then go to your local dollar store, buy yourself a hammer and build yourself a fucken house while you are at it... or better yet, go to your local pharmacy - they literally give away needles... use that to perform brain surgery on yourself." 

[kye]

13 hours ago, mkabi said:

True... but thats reality. Cost of CF Express Type B.... isn't exactly bargain basement - even with other brands.

You know what man... just give it 10 years. Everyone wants now... now now now....

You know I recently bagged a Blackmagic 2.5K Cinema Camera... yeah... I know its old, but the images that come out of that is undeniable. Moreover, people used to complain about storage if you filmed 2.5K RAW... this is 10 years ago (actually, people were even complaining 5 years ago) anyway.... now... you can get a 1TB SSD from ebay for $100 and that will hold about 4 hours of 2.5K RAW. Grab 3 SSDs and you are good for an event. Even the EF mount now has a magic booster... give it time... shit happens....

Yeah, but by the time that a $100 SSD can record 4 hours of 8K60 RAW people will be saying "24K is the minimum required to shoot videos of my cats".

It sounds ridiculous now, but people were making jokes about 4K being more than anyone would ever need.

11 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Do you use an external monitor on the GH5?

I feel the GH5 ISO range is much more sensible for run and gun shooting. Though I guess the native 2000 would be nice for lowlight situations. I've felt the GH5 performed nicely up to 3200 iso. I suppose on the GH6 you can always drop to the standard single gain mode and get a native 400 iso.

I think the GH6 may be the best run and gun camera now.

I feel like a Sigma FP with BM video assist is too cumbersome. The video assist is also a power hungry bastard. The FP with a little SSD on top and the tilt screen mod seems really run and gun friendly. Not sure what good options there are for OIS lenses and L mount. A 2TB card gets you 2 hours in 4k, not bad at all. You can compress to 7/1 raw and get really small files with Slimraw. But you can only monitor accurately at iso 100, unless you have a ninja V. Overall I feel the Sigma FP isn't terribly run and gun friendly. Too many little quirks.

I am planning on using the FP as a travel cam as well as an Alexa B cam. For travel I generally shoot wider so I don't have to worry about stabilization. I think on full frame I can get away with shooting up to 50mm handheld without much of an issue.

I don't use an external monitor on the GH5, no.  I have one for my BMMCC and do find it to be cumbersome, and before I bought any FP setup I'd definitely be taking that setup out and shooting a dozen or so test videos just to really confirm that such a rig would be suitable.

For the work I do I really find that a tilt/flip screen is invaluable, especially as I place particular emphasis when shooting of trying to shoot from interesting angles to make things more visually interesting, so I'm often shooting from above or below.  Interestingly enough if you shoot a wider follow-shot looking down from as high up as you can reach with your arms and you stabilise it heavily in post it actually looks like a close drone shot, so that's a fun thing to include.

In terms of the FP I am watching closely the discussion about exposing on it, but I would probably just set it to auto-ISO and let it expose for me, while having everything else in manual, and adding a fixed ND while outside during the day.  I only use a 1080p workflow so the downscaling already does a lot of noise suppression, so the acceptable ISO range is greatly expanded for my purposes.  I used to use a workflow where I had to render proxies before editing and it was a complete PITA, so I went to the 1080p ALL-I mode on the GH5 to essentially do that for me in-camera.  I wouldn't be delighted if I had to go back to transcoding footage again.

Lens choices would probably be an unstabilised 16mm and a 24-105/4 OIS.  OIS would be a must for me as I often shoot in less than stable conditions (hand held while cold, low-blood-sugar, tired with shaky muscles, etc).  Overall it wouldn't be a cheap setup, so it would have to really excel in other aspects to be a better option than the GH6.  We'll see.

11 hours ago, mkabi said:

The problem with so called "pros" is that they have been tricked into thinking that way... you need that kind of $100K setup to be a big shot. The main problem are the producers... they come from old school methods of film making where you need those kind of huge cameras, rigs and setups.

I remember someone telling me or reading it somewhere, that once the guy brought DSLR to a gig and the producer turned around and said something as cocky as, "I have a camera like that at home, so if I can just bring that to set... may be I wouldn't need you."

I would've said, "Fine, then go to your local dollar store, buy yourself a hammer and build yourself a fucken house while you are at it... or better yet, go to your local pharmacy - they literally give away needles... use that to perform brain surgery on yourself." 

I'm deeply aware of this "big camera = pro" dynamic because it works against me.  I go places where pros aren't allowed and do things pros aren't allowed to do, so having a big camera is a problem for me, but the industry seems to think that if you care about image quality then the camera size is irrelevant.  

It's like making all cars that can do over 50kmh 30mph the size of a semi-trailer....  
"hi, I'd like a small car"............."ok, here's a sedan - I like driving slow too!"
"um. no, I want to be able to drive on the freeway" .............. "oh, I thought you said you wanted a small car..  here's our big rig - it can haul 20 tonnes!"
"um, no, I don't need to haul anything more than some passengers around" ................  "I thought you said you wanted to drive on the freeway?  I'm confused."

[PannySVHS]

I tend to agree more and more with Dave @webrunner5 that smartphones have taken over completely as money making video content machines. Tiktok and the likes are hungry for content with sufficient image quality. Content is queen and sufficient image quality is her best friend and convinience her mate. Smartphones deliver all that. Would be interesting to compare revenue from Hollywood with the ones from Youtube and influencers.

[webrunner5]

This new Sony Xperia Pro-I I just bought is Crazy good. I will get some shots up; the weather has been terrible here last few days. This smartphone is a camera first and a phone second. Amazing tech in it. A Sony RX00 VII in your pocket almost.

[PannySVHS]

Hefty price for that piece of tech. What I like about my GX85 is the price and the ergo and my S16 Angie 75mm F2.2 lens, which covers mft evortlessly and even gives S35 a run with some tasteful vignetting.

What I dislike about smartphones is the infos about specs. I have to invest too much time to find out about bitrate, quality of codec, bit depth. Most of the time I won´t find any reliable info. With the Xperia I gave up after 5min. Also, 1inch sensor, but only using 12MP of the 20MP. Good thing though, saves me a lot of GAS driven dreams.: 🙂

 

[projectwoofer]

The pleasure of shooting videos for me is to use a dedicated tool that inspires me (the camera of my choice) and my collection of vintage manual lenses to capture moments with a specific character and nuance. And then to re-live those moments at a later time through the whole processing and color grading on the computer. I never use auto focus and I only use smartphones to make calls, send emails or surf the internet when I’m on the road. I don’t want to use a smartphone to take pictures the same way my iPad doesn’t inspire me to make music although I bought many serious music apps at some point thinking I’d use them. No, I want to make music with my analog synths and my vintage digitals, those inspire me, not a tablet. So no, no smartphone video for me! 😁

[webrunner5]

The United States is getting worse by the day about people using "real" cameras. I Never feel comfortable using one in public anymore. You stand out like a sore thumb now. This country has never been too keen on poking a camera in someone's face. The USA has really never been a tourist destination like say Europe is.

And people here have had the money to buy top end phones for years so there is very few normal cameras here now. Plus, I got my Xperia brand new in a box for $1100.00. Still expensive but not much worse than say a new iPhone or Samsung.

And yeah it is not using the whole senor, using 60% of it, and the pixels are larger so better low light and Bokeh ability due to the size. It is a better phone than a lot of people think. 

[webrunner5]

 

[nathlas]

Nearly perfect hybrid camera said the Sony guy.

 

Not bad assuming that he didn't like the R5

[TomTheDP]

5 hours ago, nathlas said:

Nearly perfect hybrid camera said the Sony guy.

 

Not bad assuming that he didn't like the R5

I don't think he disliked the R5 but it had overheating issues and a weird lack of dynamic range considering both cameras have the same log profiles.

[gt3rs]

Is cool and strange that they got more DR out of the R5c as I pretty sure the sensor is the same as the R5.

Not sure that I get the part that he loves USB PD power (very small plug that can break) but hates the micro hdmi (again a very small plug that can break). 

[kye]

7 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Is cool and strange that they got more DR out of the R5c as I pretty sure the sensor is the same as the R5.

DR is highly susceptible to processing, like highly highly susceptible, so if there's any change to how the camera processes the image, or there's any change to how it is processed in post then the DR measurement will reflect that.  It could be that something like the debayering is different etc based on the metadata from the cameras (ie, not something that he did) or even that it got upgraded int he software in the meantime.

I'm starting to lose trust in DR measurements as the more I look at it the more I find that it's sensitive to things that don't matter in the real world, and isn't sensitive to things that really matter in the real world.  Not saying that DR itself doesn't matter - far from it - but the way it gets measured I think isn't a good representation of that.

[TomTheDP]

21 minutes ago, kye said:

DR is highly susceptible to processing, like highly highly susceptible, so if there's any change to how the camera processes the image, or there's any change to how it is processed in post then the DR measurement will reflect that.  It could be that something like the debayering is different etc based on the metadata from the cameras (ie, not something that he did) or even that it got upgraded int he software in the meantime.

I'm starting to lose trust in DR measurements as the more I look at it the more I find that it's sensitive to things that don't matter in the real world, and isn't sensitive to things that really matter in the real world.  Not saying that DR itself doesn't matter - far from it - but the way it gets measured I think isn't a good representation of that.

I have always preferred seeing over/under tests. Highlight retention is pretty easy to judge but when it comes to shadows its very subject IMO.

[Django]

Don't forget they managed to get dual ISO performance on R5C vs R5. Surely that explains the increased DR.

There are proven over/under tests out there (ProAV) showing it.

[kye]

18 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I have always preferred seeing over/under tests. Highlight retention is pretty easy to judge but when it comes to shadows its very subject IMO.

I agree, and I've come to think about under/over latitude tests as the measure of useful DR from a camera.  I haven't yet gotten an understanding of how this usable DR relates to absolute DR, but early observations are that they seem to be proportional.

As someone who incorrectly exposes, almost exclusively, this is the main concern I have.  Obviously if you're pulling things up (I don't often overexpose) then noise and the various characters of that noise become significant, but NR is very good these days, so it's the strange colour shifts that I find are what limits this.

[PannySVHS]

German testsite Slashcam. Very amazed, by the fact that the GH6 performed equally well as the R5C regarding dynamic range.

Here is a translation from their 5RC review, regarding the GH6 surprised them.:

"What's really amazing, however, is how well the winner from our last MFT dynamic showdown does: The Panasonic GH6 with Dynamic Boost can "only" come up with 6K, but otherwise delivers a thoroughly equal dynamic range. We will try to present you with more dynamic range comparisons in the next few weeks, which will hopefully result in a more differentiated picture of the current camera market."